I so feel the same as you Mama. For me, realizing that my H is simply who he is (which has never been particularly open or honest) means I have to accept it for now, keep fostering the good things in our R, and pray for personal growth for both of us. Wish it made the roller coaster go away, but for now, maybe it can just lessen the extremes...Keep on keepin' on!
Quote: For me, realizing that my H is simply who he is (which has never been particularly open or honest) means I have to accept it for now
I would agree with this, but with qualifications. I know my W is the kind of woman who keeps things bottled up and then explodes when it gets too much for her. She is not open or honest when it comes to her feelings and this I accept. What I cannot accept is if she is going to continue to be dishonest about her actions as they relate to cheating, etc. It's one thing to be a guarded person, not comfortable with expressing the "truth" about how you feel/think, it's quite another to be untruthful in matters such as an OP or the like.
Hi MamaBear! Great conversation going on over here, about the truth and the need for honesty vs. DBing. First, I am sorry you are hurting and that this is still an issue. IMHO, in order for you to be truly reconciling, you H needs to be making efforts also towards your reconcilliation, and since he "stepped out" part of his job would need to be to reassure you. The problem is, he has reassured you (by saying he never had an A) and you don't believe him. So this is a big discrepancy, you are living in different realities. This issue would need to be reconciled before your M could be in the state of reconcilling, IMO. Because right now there is no trust, there can not be even the building of trust, because out the gate you are not in alignment.
Now in DBing they talk about not mentioning the the OP. I think that is "in the beginning" of DBing. Fact is, you have already talked about it, your H has told you something, and you don't believe him. What did you do or say when he gave you his answer, and you didn't believe him? Did you say "I don't believe you. I am sorry, but I do not think you are telling me the truth." ? Because unless you said that, and he followed it with "What can I do or say to help you trust me, to reassure you?" then YOU are sweeping your truth under the rug. It is not just H sweeping the uncomfortable things under.
I think this is really important, because it is so easy to blame our partners for not being truthful, even when we are complicit in that act. What can you do to begin to be the space where only truth is present? What would you need to do, and who would you need to be, such that it would be preferable and comfortable and necessary for the truth to prevail?
Here's what I'm thinking: Start with "I" statements. Such as "I have not been truthful with you. I said X when the truth was Y. I'm sorry. I am making an effort to have a closer R with you, and I know honesty is an important ingredient of that." Keep having conversations like that, not expecting anything from H. See how much there is for you to do or say to come clean. Let H alone and focus on you, see where that leads you.
My two cents. I love you Mama, and have missed you while I was away. I hope it is OK I jumped in here with such vigor.
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Hi PL, Glad you are back and you can stop by here anytime!
Quote: Fact is, you have already talked about it, your H has told you something, and you don't believe him. What did you do or say when he gave you his answer, and you didn't believe him? Did you say "I don't believe you. I am sorry, but I do not think you are telling me the truth." ? Because unless you said that, and he followed it with "What can I do or say to help you trust me, to reassure you?" then YOU are sweeping your truth under the rug. It is not just H sweeping the uncomfortable things under.
This is good, the next time he tells me something that I do not believe I am going to say just that. Although, I am pretty sure he will get all defensive and angry.
Quote: Start with "I" statements. Such as "I have not been truthful with you. I said X when the truth was Y. I'm sorry. I am making an effort to have a closer R with you, and I know honesty is an important ingredient of that." Keep having conversations like that, not expecting anything from H.
I will have to try this. Mind you I do not lie but I don't always say how I really feel for fear of H's reaction. I need to definitely get over that.
Hi All, Not much to report here although I am still grappling with the fact that I do not trust my H. The big issue for me is this, and I am going to have to confront him about it. H leaves for work very early in the morning, now if he was working an 8 hour shift and I account for 1 hour break/lunch and drive time to and from work then I feel he should be home 10 hours later, right? Sometimes he is gone longer and according to his pay (I haven't seen his actual paycheck in over a year - since A started) I know he doesn't always work an 8 hour shift. Of course, right away I assume he is spending time with OW before he comes home to me.
I hate having these feelings as it builds up resentment. Any ideas on how I can approach this subject with H without causing him to become angry and defensive?
While I was reading Piglets thread about her session with counselor I received an answer to my question.
"to love myself mostly. To express myself truthfully without anger or blame. To set boundaries and speak up honestly when I'm uncomfortable with something."
Where is OT when we need her? If you read my thread, you'll see that I'm in a "zone" of truth right now, so any advice I give take in that light. Obviously your sitch is diff, and what is working for me, might not work for you. I will say that I do think the advice our MC gave is good advice for anyone. What is the root of the problem, your feelings and the unhealthy atmosphere you're dealing with? Is it genuinely because his work schedule doesnt make sense, he doesnt share his paycheck and you feel that you can't talk to him about it without him becoming defensive? Is it because he's "there" but not there in a way that he's acting committed to working on the problems with you and moving the R forward to a better place?
From what we've been through I have to share that there's a huge difference in piecing with a H that is truly back in the R and a H that is just "there" because it's the right thing to do. I've lived with J as both men, and it was hard to move forward until he became invested in the R again. So, is the goal to confront this problem that is bothering you, or is the goal to earn a H that's invested enough to confront any and all problems to make the M better?
I'm saying this because I have a good track record of setting out to confront problems and fix things. For months I was angry and upset because J still worked with OW. I set out to confront and fix that problem so that I could trust him and feel safe again. Every time I mentioned it, he got defensive. He finally decided he needed to find another job.. I think mostly to shut me up. He did find another job, but it didnt solve the problem. It didnt heal my hurt or distrust and it didnt make him anymore committed to the R. He said "there, see, I did what you told me to, are you happy now" Then we separated because no, I still wasnt happy.. he wasnt invested in our R and I just picked out another problem to confront. Controlling, and pushy is how he saw me. I still saw a man that didnt love me or want to be with me even though we'd "fixed" the problem.
What is making you unhappy Mama? What's making you anxious, hurt and frustrated? Where's the resentment coming from? Can you confront that with the truth and figure out how you need things to change so that you're respecting and loving yourself and creating an atmosphere that doesnt promote those negative feelings? Thinking that helps me to set reasonable boundaries on how I'm treated. For instance, I told J that I don't want to be near him when he's irritable and passive agressive. He can get a handle on that or not, but either way, I'll protect and love myself. If he starts snipping at me I can remove myself from the situation. Here again though I have to confront the truth. The truth is, I need to learn to detach from J's actions and reactions and stop internalizing them. That's the root of the problem. I can try to control how he's acting, but it's much better if I control how I'm feeling about myself. You say you hate having these feelings because it builds up resentment. What are you resenting? What are you thinking specifically that's feeding the resentment?
Here is about what my mental dialogue used to be "J is still working with the sl*t. He doesnt care about me or how I feel about it. They are probably eating lunch together every day while I'm here kissing his butt trying to save our M"
The truth was... yes, he was still working with OW. The truth as to why wasnt because he wanted to work with her or cause me pain. He was working with her because we needed the income and he hadnt found another job. The truth was that he did care about me.. proof is that he came home to me every night. He cared how I felt about it, but probably couldnt deal with my feelings at the time because he was confused and guilt ridden himself. As far as them spending time together.. I have no idea. he says he wasnt, but that still wasnt the problem. The prob was that he wasnt spending time with me, or working HIS butt of on our M. That was the root of my anger and resentment. And, OW had nothing to do with it, but I told myself she did. I wasnt working on how to encourage him to spend more time with me and recommit to the M.. I was working on getting him away from OW and confronting him and trying to control that created more distance. Cheeseless tunnel for me. I shouldve been trying to DB better and show him I was changing so that he'd willingly decide that he wanted to spend time with me and make our M better because it was worth it.
Dont know if any of that helps or not. I feel for you Mama. You've come so far in terms of your patience and controlling your emotions. Give yourself a pat on the back for not just confronting him without seeking advice or thinking about what you need to do
LOL we cross posted. I added a reply to your thread because I wanted to emphasize what the C said about getting to the root of the problem and unhappiness. We can fight the symptoms and confront them all day long and it still be a cheeseless tunnel. For instance, I feel hurt when we don't ML, but that's not the root of the problem.. the not ML. The root is that I feel unloved, undesired and rejected. So I have to check what's happening and see if the truth is that I'm unloved, undesired and rejected. In the past, the truth would be yes.. that I'm living with a man that doesn't desire me and I'd have to choose whether or not to take action on that. For now though, the truth is that I am desired, but I feel that way because I'm holding onto the past. Before I speak up, speak out and take action, I have to be sure that it'll fix the root problem. Sometimes it will mean that I need J to change something, or do something. Sometimes, I'll have to change myself or let go of something, and I'm sure at times, it's going to mean taking action that I don't want to take. Such as, I have a friendship that needs to be ended because the root problem is that this friend is disrespectful and controlling. I can't demand that she change who she is. I've told her how I feel though and now have to end the friendship because it's unhealthy for me and yeah, maybe she'd change someday, but I'm not willing to invest that much to see.
) 
If you read my thread, you'll see that I'm in a "zone" of truth right now, so any advice I give take in that light. Obviously your sitch is diff, and what is working for me, might not work for you. I will say that I do think the advice our MC gave is good advice for anyone. What is the root of the problem, your feelings and the unhealthy atmosphere you're dealing with? Is it genuinely because his work schedule doesnt make sense, he doesnt share his paycheck and you feel that you can't talk to him about it without him becoming defensive? Is it because he's "there" but not there in a way that he's acting committed to working on the problems with you and moving the R forward to a better place?