Thanks for your encouraging words – I had a good, cheery evening last night as a result. I am sorry to hear that you are in the same situation.
The whole thing boils down to two questions now – how can I tell that progress is being made and how long am I willing to wait? Her tone has softened of late (though not this morning, when she was critical of everything, a result of a lousy night (we had a windstorm) and maybe from feeling hemmed in again by yesterday’s declaration that I still wanted to work on us). If all I ever get to is a softer tone - which I don’t take as an expression of love - then that is just not enough. We need to get to some physical contact again.
Second, it has been three years of not sleeping together or touching (maybe a kiss on the cheek, at most, every 3 or 4 months), verily a long time. At some point, I will reach my limit. New York state law says that one year of abandonment is enough grounds for divorce, which topped with a probable ongoing EA, is not happy camping for me.
Anyway, I will hang in there, though given all the discouragement of the annual bombs, I am loathe to spend money on fancy dates (which she might not like anyway). The ideas of flying to Ireland or overnighting on a yacht in Stockholm or even simply a romantic dinner for just the two of us will have to wait… at least we have a bunch of good videos to watch here again.
Are things changing for the better with you?
Best regards from another passenger in the boat of difficult marriage –
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Luke, I too have had the bomb dropped three times now, every year around the same time, it's becoming a new ritual in our family..."Happy bomb dropping Day!", maybe I should start buying her a gift for the occassion? . Seriously though, three years ago I heard " I don't know how I feel about you (or the kids) anymore", two years ago I heard "I don't love you anymore" and last year I heard "I've started another R". I discovered the DB book 1.5 years ago and it kept me going. So my suggestion is to keep following the DB strategies until you come to that place where the M is on track or you honestly feel its over. I'm at a place where I am now going to see a Solution Focused Counsellor because I'm out of ideas, so it's time to get reinforcements! So, you keep trying things and see what works and what doesn't and DON'T live by whatever comes out of W's mouth, that's a killer to the PMA. Take care.
You know, I'm wondering if you should bring up the counselor talk again...then, when she says no to going... then bring up the fact about the note you found, the book left in your daughter's room about D, also, the endless "private" phone calls...accuse her of having an A, be it EA or PA and that you will not stand for it. If she gets a little defensive, then, tell her that her behavior is just that - unacceptable.
Maybe, you need to force the issue and "break" her down. This would be confrontational, I know, and that you do not like to do that...but, Luke, maybe it's time to be super aggressive and take charge of the M now...you steer it for a while...you tell her where you both will go, do, see with the kids, etc. See how she reacts...if she yells, yell back...
Thanks for your post. Funny how things come full circle to the idea of confrontation...
Here is a timeline I am considering giving her (as a printout or via email) of the last few years:
Her actions:
Summer or Fall 2002 says it might be good to find someone new for both of us Jan 2004 sometimes does, sometimes does not, sleep in same bed (with me) Feb 6 2004 last time sleeps in same bed June 2004 does not return handholding gesture Fall 2004 announces she wants a divorce Summer 2005 caresses cat and not me, in front of me (a low point of the year) Fall 2005 again says it would be better to split up Christmas 2005 7 weeks of Berlin Christmas market, probable affair January 2006 passionate embrace and kiss May 2006 note ‘accidentally’ announces affair Summer 2006 children’s book about new boyfriend being okay found Summer 2006 kissless partial embrace at airport July 2006 needs to spend time “alone” in youth hostel November 2006 misses Istanbul trip Dec 2006 proposes we both see new people plan January 2007 starts collecting garden supplies
Weekly – a critical, bad mood morning (“why didn’t you …”, or "why is this ...") Summer 2006 to present – out of room, secret, low voice phone calls
* * *
My actions:
July 2004 buy (expensive) macintosh for her Christmas 2005 carry 60 lb. DeWalt saw from USA as gift April 2006 japan trip, also for her May 2006 stop running as Japan trip produced no good result Summer 2006 throw out inappropriate children’s book October 2006 start weight lifting December 2006 start marathon training January 2007 propose marriage counseling class, which she refuses
Daily – turn the other cheek, try to maintain PMA, to remain kind and generous, give her space Summer 2006 – lose trust due to affair and weekend ostensibly spent ‘alone’
* * * Conclusion – 3 years of abandonment, 1 year of adultery, marriage promise broken.
* * *
Possible continuation - create separation of goods agreement (retroactive to 2005, following 1 year of abandonment), create divorce agreement, divide up things, sell house, and move, before school starts again this fall.
I would ask her if the timeline is true, say that this is grossly unfair to me, suggest that perhaps she should move out, and ask what she thinks of the continuation ideas. As a way of making things more concrete for her, I have found a divorce agreement from another poster here (don't recall the name) and would modify this to suit our circumstances, giving this to her with the above list. It would contain very specific details, such as that she gets the kids for the next vacation (since I had them for the last one) the idea being to rip off the pleasant veneer of our current relationship.
How does this sound? I'd like to be well prepared before any confrontation.
Snow last night - the ground is white and the roads are icy -
Life is a process -
Luke
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Quote: How does this sound? I'd like to be well prepared before any confrontation.
You know Luke, it doesn't really have to be a confrontation as much as an ultimatum. Being the Alpha Male you described earlier isn't about riding motorcycles, taking testosterone, or confrontations, it's about leadership and taking control of a situation. It's been out of your control the last 3 years. Just make your stance as a matter of fact and walk away. Let the lawyers figure it out if she's uncooperative. I really admire your tolerance and don't know if I could do what you have done for 3 years.
"It is curious that physical courage should be so common in the world and moral courage so rare." -Mark Twain
Luke, you aren't seriously going to give this to her are you? A list of all her "poor" behaviours versus all your "good" behaviours! What the heck for? I dunno Luke but it seems you've only been DBing for a couple of months, isn't the ultimatum a little heavy here? Sure, she says and does lots to push you away but that's what they do. Are there any other strategies you can try and give them time? I know it sucks but I just feel like maybe you're trying to push this too fast. What 180's can you do? Have you tried detachment (God knows, I'd like to!) or even just give her the space she wants for now and GAL your butt off. You know she's having an A, so what? Again, it still doesn't change what you have to do to turn it around. What do you think?
I don't think that I would present that letter to her. It looks like you are keeping score. Hold on to it, if you need to show an attorney in the future...but, she will explode on that listing.
What would be her response, if you brought up the A? What kind of reaction do you think she would resort to?
Sorry about being offline – we had a busy weekend, with little empty space. A few highlights thereof: W and I watched ‘Capote’ on Thursday, the whole family watched ‘Luther’ on Friday, W and I watched ‘1001 Nights” by Pasolini (a lousy movie, but with great settings) on Saturday. We picked up a sideboard for the kitchen, during which drive W asked what kind of mint and basil I would like in the garden this year. W brought in a flowering amaryllis for my desk on Friday. Last night she slept downstairs and this morning we separate breakfasts, hardly talked, beyond 20 words from her saying she was taking D to school and then going to her Swedish class.
So a curious mix of time spent together, some small things to make my life a bit nicer, and then an empty, silent coexistence.
Oh, and we twice had unexpected visitors for lunch on Saturday (whom I invited in, but during which my wife gave me critical glances) and then 2 hours later a second set, during which both times I was the chef and food provider. I would have thought this sociable, extroverted, behavior would get me brownie points, but it had no discernible effect. My W did most of the talking, as usual, though I occasionally chimed in.
* * *
So we have three votes in:
Astimegoeson = Walk away: “Just make your stance as a matter of fact and walk away. Let the lawyers figure it out if she's uncooperative…. it's about leadership and taking control of a situation. It's been out of your control the last 3 years.”
Whatisis = Keep on DBing: “you aren't seriously going to give this to her are you? A list of all her "poor" behaviours versus all your "good" behaviours… it seems you've only been DBing for a couple of months, isn't the ultimatum a little heavy here?”
12102006 = Confront her about the affair: “I don't think that I would present that letter to her. It looks like you are keeping score. What would be her response, if you brought up the A? What kind of reaction do you think she would resort to?”
Lots to mull over… I had an idea about scanning and posting her affair note to a private internet site which I would then ask her to have a look at, turning the spear around and asking her to give me a few good reasons to stay in a M where I have been abandoned and am possibly being cheated on… using the fear of exposure (the website) and loss (why should I stay?) as motivators… but that is unlike me…
I am not sure how she would react to me bringing up the affair. She could be defensive, aggressive, sorry, rational (‘why don’t you have an affair also?’), afraid, angry, contemptuous (“why didn’t you bring this up earlier?”) etc. If I did bring up the A, I would ask her how she thinks it makes me feel and what she would do in my shoes.
As for lawyers, they basically aren’t needed here in ‘enlightened’ Sweden, where there is no fault divorce, with a 50/50 split of goods (unless you have a prenuptial agreement), equal visitation and custody rights, etc. I would like to get her to retroactively relinquish any gains in my 401K starting from Feb. 2005 (after one year of abandonment), since things have not improved since then.
As for Dbing , I have been doing most of the cooking for three years now (part of GAL, filling the time made available by her no longer wanting to be with me), using the LRT extensively, am weightlifting and training for a marathon (ran 7 miles yesterday). I have not been able to turn my INTJ personality type into something more sociable, assertive and extroverted, have not made new friends (that would be a real 180, as I am mostly a loner; the one Swedish guy I would consider being friends with my wife does not respect). So I disagree; I have been Dbing, but the most difficult 180s, which involve personality change, have not happened (my W also said she wouldn’t want me to do this, but the way, that I am a lovely person as is – though not what she wants - ).
So anyway, I don’t’ really know what to do. I do know that our current situation is not satisfying. Perhaps take an executive type, assertiveness training course? Personality change and finding/making friends are the most difficult thing for me – is this what she wants?
Luke
So this is what it comes down to, Now I see it clearly, An even exchange of services, (oh, except for the sexual one, Which you choose to outsource) I cook, you clean, Will work for food, A modern, free transaction.
M58, xW54 S22, D18 M 1984, D 2016 Living a new life.
Hey Luke, sounds like things are coming to a head for you somewhat. At some point you have to say enough is enough and figure out where your stance is. So you have been given three pieces/options of advice. So the question then becomes, what do YOU want to do. How tired are you of all of this? I believe that you can take a stance without jeopardizing your own feelings. Being a decent man at the same time as forcing an issue can be done you know.
Maybe it's just time to lay it all out there a bit. Maybe you need to force a seperation to start. let her know your not giving up on reconciliation, however you also are sick of living this way. She may just need to be on her own or see you on your own in order to get the reality of what the situation will become should the two of you actually part ways.
Only you can decide what the correct course of action is for you Luke, just know that sitting there and taking this pain over and over again, each day suffering will only end up damaging your heart for any future relationships. The longer you allow yourself to take the hurt and have the pain in your life, the longer it will take you to recover and ever trust again.
The only thing that I am trying to really get across to you is that you can only take so much on yourself Luke. You have to start at some point to put your mental well being ahead of anything else. Take your time and search your soul to figure out what Luke really needs.
Luke, the beauty of this BB is that sometimes you do get a variety of opinions, the tough part is sorting them out! As you know, we have someshat similar sitches with unfaithful S's, numerous "bombs" and children. My utmost concern in my sitch is the kids. Whatever I decide affects more than my "happiness", it affects there's. So put that into you equation when deciding. Now, personally I'm going to see a Solution Focused counsellor this week because I too don't know where to go from here. There does come a time when enough is enough, only you can know when that time is. I'm thinking about telling my W that she has a certain amount of time to decide what she wants for her life and her family afterwhich I will decide what's going to happen. I will tell her that one of us will be leaving. It's up to her to decide whether she wants an intact family and to rebuild our M or the OP and all the Hell that will entail re family and everything else. Right now it's a thought for me, one I need to seriously process. Again, my kids mean everything to me in deciding this. But,this may be a strategy you could consider too. Take care.
. Seriously though, three years ago I heard " I don't know how I feel about you (or the kids) anymore", two years ago I heard "I don't love you anymore" and last year I heard "I've started another R". I discovered the DB book 1.5 years ago and it kept me going. So my suggestion is to keep following the DB strategies until you come to that place where the M is on track or you honestly feel its over. I'm at a place where I am now going to see a Solution Focused Counsellor because I'm out of ideas, so it's time to get reinforcements! So, you keep trying things and see what works and what doesn't and DON'T live by whatever comes out of W's mouth, that's a killer to the PMA. Take care.