Quote: Very interesting...I wonder if my H has these occasional feelings...
Well, Mama, I think we all have thoughts/feelings for the people we once loved or were with. I know I do. Sure, I won't take any actions based on those feelings, but especially soon after a breakup, the feelings come fast and furious, often against your will.
I don't blame her for her feelings. Like I said, even today, I can think back fondly on some of the people I was with, or even in love with but it stops there. As long as it stops with thoughts and feelings, I am not going to sweat it. If it goes beyond that, well, that's where my boundary is.
I don't LIKE it at all, but there are a lot of things I don't like that are in my life for one reason or another. I see it as my job to either try to change the things I don't like in my life or accept them as they are. Constantly getting upset about them without processing my ability to act is less than productive, IMHO.
I think it's almost certain that your H has those feelings. It doesn't mean he doesn't love you or isn't ready to be fully "there" with you. To me, it's just part of being human and so long as actions are not following the feelings, so be it.
Quote: She didn't say she currently loved him but that at one time she thought she did and it still hurt.
GH,
Notice that your W said she *thought* she loved him, not that she *did* love him.
It sounds like she is starting to grapple with one of the most painful things for a WAS. Her R was a sham, an escape. She risked her M, risked breaking up her family, acted against her values for a cheap meaningless A with someone she neither likes nor respects. YUCK. She became a person who would do lie, cheat, deceive. YUCK. It is very painful for a WAS to start to get a grip on who they became and what they did for an R that now turns their stomachs.
This is not fond reflection of your first love. This is sadness over so many very deeply painful things that it is much easier to ignore and blame the things on other things. (This explains a lot of what has been going on with her picking at YOU. The problem is her, not you. If you can try not to personalize it, that is a good thing.)
Anyway, I suspect W is torn between still idealizing the R w/OM to feel better about herself (leading her to be angry and critical with you), and starting to acknowledge to herself what the R w/OM really was (empty escape) and how damaging it was to her and everyone else (leading her to be angry and critical with you).
The latter will have to happen sooner or later, and it is a hard thing to live with.
BTW, the cell phone thing is BS. She knows she didn't do it, and she didn't do it because she doesn't want to cut off contact. Making that decisive move requires acknowledging that it was not the ideal R she thought it was. IMHO, it is high time to quit tolerating continued contact.
You know, waaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day, I had an A with a married man when I was single (yes, it horrifies me now, they were BOTH friends of mine. I was a very different gal).
ANYWAY. I have a point.
Today, I was at the gym (yay me) and a song came on that reminded me of him, and I smiled: involuntarily and immediately, and I don't even know why. Just about how that time was (sorry!) FUN and crazy, etc. And in the next moment I thought: OMG, does H have those brief 'happy's when something catches him off guard like that? Yuck. But somewhat understandable now; i.e. how is it okay for me to have inappropriate fond memories of something BAD and WRONG, but not for H to (if he does)? Just some food for thought that made me think today. What timing that you guys are talking about this very thing.
Not that I don't think it SUCKS BIG DONKEY DICKS NOW, mind you....
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
Actually, things took a bad turn, which led to a good one. Lemme explain.
Last night, which turned into the wee hours of this morning (2 hours of sleep) W was upset. She had a lot to drink and didn't bother with her usual attempts to hide her feelings. I didn't bother with my usual attempts to, well, to do much of anything. She tried to bait me into a long talk and I didn't bite. I did listen to her but she didn't have much to say other than there was something she could tell me but I would be mad, etc...that I would be mad either way. I didn't even bite at that. I just said I understood and eventually, at around 4:00am, she fell asleep in my arms. That was after a LOT of tears and such.
I would have to say it was my best effort at loving detachment yet. I don't know if that's something to be proud of at this point, but I guess I am.
Anyway, I am sick so I had already planed on staying home from work. I actually offered to take the kids to school for her since I was going to sleep the rest of the day away.
She apologized profusely for keeping me up, etc.
Of course, it was no secret what all that was about. She even said it was about OM in some way but didn't elaborate.
When I got back to the house from dropping the kids off (I actually kinda surprised her because she didn't know I was going to stay home), she was very glad to see me and we snuggled up in our bed for a LONG morning nap. There really was no tension.
Later on, after watching a movie and eating lunch, we took showers. As she was taking hers, it came to me to say "Hey honey, I would really appreciate it if you would decide to talk about 'that thing' sometime other than 2am and after a bottle of wine. I want to hear what you have to say, but not then." She simply replied "Ok."
I didn't really think anything would come of it but suddenly, as we were going to pick the kids up from school she says... (lots o' paraphrasing)
W: It was about [OM] (called him by name...strange), it's ALWAYS about him when I get like that at night. M: Ok, I figured that. W: He called. I didn't expect it. I have not heard from him in a long time and when I heard his voice, it set me back. I have been SO happy for the past few months, it sucked to hear from him. M: So you talked to him. W: Yes. M: For how long? W: For about ten minutes. He kept telling me how wrong I was and how we're meant for each other. He said I was living a lie staying married and that I should get a divorce. (throughout the convo she told me a lot more about what he said, all of which boiled down to that sentiment repeated in different ways...he sounded desperate...poor OM) M: Do you agree? W: NO, I told him that I made my choice and I was sorry but that was that. M: Ok, if that's "that" then you don't need any more contact from him. Block his number. W: I wish it was that simple. He calls from different numbers. He does that on purpose. M: Ok, so when you hear it's him, hang up... W: I know, I should but he makes me feel like I've ruined his life. He tells me that. He said he tried to see other people and it doesn't work, because he only wants me. M: Ok, well, that's his problem. Look, I know how you probably feel. I can't say I like it at all, but I understand. You're human. When I don't get is how you can feel bad about hurting him when he literally hurt you in many different ways. W: That's only part of his personality... M: BS. That may be, but I don't get women who stay with men who abuse them. I just don't get it but that's not the issue. W: No, it's not. Whatever the case, I am happy now and I hate that I feel like I am back to square one. M: I understand that. It's like when you smell a certain smell and it all of a sudden brings you back to another time, another place... W: Exactly. M: Well, I'm glad you trusted me to talk to me about it. W: I didn't really, but I felt like I needed to be honest. I thought you would get angry. You always do. M: I didn't, but would you have blamed me? W: No, not at all. I understand how you feel, but I also just want to be honest with you. M: I appreciate that, I really do...
I summarized what she had said, to make sure I understood, and then asked her point blank if there was anything I needed to worry about beyond the obvious that some guy was bothering my wife. She said no, and reiterated for Nth time that she was happy, etc. I didn't get that she was trying to convince herself, but that she really was trying to convince me. I asked her if she was upset because what he said rang true and she said no. She didn't feel the way he did. I threw in some stuff about reading that in cases like this there needed to be absolutely no contact for the very reason she's describing, the renewed feelings, etc. She agreed...but I dunno if she will actively cut it off.
I DO believe that she won't get back involved with him. I don't KNOW that, but I feel it. We seem a lot more "right" that we ever have so I am going to run with that.
That was about it. I think she was TOTALLY taken aback that she could talk to me about her feelings and I didn't get defensive or angry.
For my part, I didn't really see the need. I didn't feel angry. The emotion I think I felt was sadness that this was still a part of our life, and compassion for the position my W feels she is in.
That said, though some little additional convos here and there for the rest of the day, we both agreed that he can't be a part of her life anymore. I think what she's looking for is for him to move on, find someone else so it will be easier for her. I told her that it's not her problem. She's a married woman who can't fill that role in his life. She CAN'T be a people pleaser where he's concerned. She agreed.
I can't put my finger on it, but it really feels like some hurdle has been leaped today. She's opened up to me before, but not like that, not totally sober, in the light of day. There's some symbolism in that.
I feel much more at ease. I don't know if I just got a tour of the tip of the iceberg, or a glimpse at the whole thing, but at least I've been invited to the Arctic. We'll see where things go from here.
As far as I'm concerned, communication is good. Today was good. Time to move forward.
Oddly, I FEAR this kind of conversation from my H (although there's no contact with OW in a year, etc. my paranoid nature thinks he pines for her), and you jumped right in the boat like a MAN, a HUSBAND, a PARTNER, a TEAM MEMBER.
I genuflect! ha.
H did tell me recently that he misses having a "connection" with someone (i.e. he used to tell her they had one, and he feels he doesn't have one with me) but maybe he "wasn't meant to have one" - which all but SUCKED. I didn't say anything really b/c I was hurt and surprised.
I posted a story on my blog about when we were dating and a turning point for me with him. I sent him the link (b/c he doesn't read the blog anymore) and asked him if he remembered it. He emailed back that he barely remembered that. Sad. Anyway, not to veer off on my own road (zoom!)but I am glad for you. You are working it out, and you don't seem to be the only one in your M doing that anymore.
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
Wow, GH, is that what it looks like, loving detachment? How does it feel? Does it boil down to unconditional love, where you feel bad about the other's pain, wish that it would stop, but don't take ownership for fixing it or let it give you pain? And non-judgemental. You still love the person even if you think their actions are wrong or mistaken?
How to deal with your own pain? Do you, and all DBer's, learn to push the pain away, stop thinking about it? Does it have to be dealt with eventually to keep resentment from building up or to avoid an explosion?
Last night, for the first time in a long time, the OM was brought up between me and my W. She said she hasn't talked to him. It didn't make me feel much better. Like you've told me, it's not about him really. I was sad that the tears W cried for him seemed to be tears of love, while the tears she cries for me seem to be tears of guilt, but I moved on. I know it must be very hard for her. I wish I could make it better for her, but I can't.
You handled things amazingly well it seems to me. Knowing someone has done it shows that it's possible for everyone to do it. Thanks for the inspiration and I wish you continued movement toward real intimacy and happiness.
M45, W45,S15, D10, Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06, finally ILY 9/07 last thread
Thanks all. I really do think it was an eye-opening experience for BOTH of us that we could talk about that subject without anger or much emotion.
I want to back-track and reply to OT who said some things what warrant (go figure, lol) reply.
Quote: Notice that your W said she *thought* she loved him, not that she *did* love him.
Yea, I did notice that, and even made sure she clarified it. She said there was a time when she really thought she was in love with him, and she does have strong feelings, but she doesn't think of it as love anymore.
Quote: It sounds like she is starting to grapple with one of the most painful things for a WAS. Her R was a sham, an escape. She risked her M, risked breaking up her family, acted against her values for a cheap meaningless A with someone she neither likes nor respects. YUCK. She became a person who would do lie, cheat, deceive. YUCK. It is very painful for a WAS to start to get a grip on who they became and what they did for an R that now turns their stomachs.
Yea, I think she started with this idea a long time ago but is just now talking about it.
Quote: Anyway, I suspect W is torn between still idealizing the R w/OM to feel better about herself (leading her to be angry and critical with you), and starting to acknowledge to herself what the R w/OM really was (empty escape) and how damaging it was to her and everyone else (leading her to be angry and critical with you).
Yep. On the subject of her being critical with me, that was one part of our talk yesterday I didn't post about because it was kinda off the subject but... I did manage to introduce the idea that her "feelings" for OM, or about herself were probably a lot more responsible for her starting to pull away from me/intimacy than any supposed weight gain or sudden lack of concern over my appearance I developed. She didn't really reply but I took that as a silent admission that I was right. We are still probably going to have more of that talk sometime.
Quote:
BTW, the cell phone thing is BS. She knows she didn't do it, and she didn't do it because she doesn't want to cut off contact. Making that decisive move requires acknowledging that it was not the ideal R she thought it was. IMHO, it is high time to quit tolerating continued contact.
I agree with the first part, I guess am wishy-washy about the last part. It's hard to "quit tolerating" something that she claims doesn't exist. She SAYS the first time she's talked to him in the last 4-5 months was two days ago and before that, it's only been voice-mail. I don't know if this is true or not and I am not willing to go to any extent to find out. I don't believe in snooping, period. If she says she has not initiated contact, nor has she answered the phone when she knows it's him, fine.
Bottom line is that she can make up her own mind. If she continues to say that she's NOT pursuing anything with him, would prefer not to talk to him, etc, and SEEMES to be taking action to make that happen, that's good enough for me. Other than calling her out for lying, I don't really see what else I need to do...and I don't really think she's lying.
Thank you, as always, for your response. You DA MAN...er...WOman!
Quote: Wow, GH, is that what it looks like, loving detachment?
I think so. Really, what it is, if I am trying to be honest, is me having a very large amount of self-esteem/security right now and this stuff really doesn't shake me. But, to the extent that I am affected (you bet I was a bit angry at hearing she talked to him) and then managed to control my response, yes, it is loving detachment.
Quote: How does it feel?
Pretty darn good.
Quote: Does it boil down to unconditional love, where you feel bad about the other's pain, wish that it would stop, but don't take ownership for fixing it or let it give you pain?
I guess. To me it boils down to unconditional love and commitment to my marriage. It means not living through this part of things with one foot out the door, constantly looking for that "one last thing" that will signal the end. I COULD have reacted by thinking "Oh freaking great, that's it, she's talking to him again. She must be f--king him too. Now I know it's all a lie and we're back to square one, or even worse...it's OVER!"
As for the fixing part, I did still try to offer some kind of "fixing" advice but yes, I was able to sympathize with her pain, have compassion for her, but not internalize or take blame for it. That's a very new thing for me, even after all this time.
Also, the missing element here is relief. I felt a sense of relief that finally she talked. She finally trusted me to tell me her feelings and I don't think I let her...OR myself down. I think that sense of relief, a very positive feeling, was what helped me get over the initial shock of hearing that she talked to him. (geezus...LOTS of self-analyzing psycho-babble crap today)
Quote: And non-judgemental.
BIIIIIIIGGGGGG part of all this. The night before, when she was drunk and spewing her usual emotional stuff all over the place (probably not the best visual...), one thing she said that actually made it through my "detachment filter" was that I was still very judgmental. I thought about this and she was right. I was. Maybe I was right to judge certain things (affair for one) but I did it across the board. SO, when this convo started, one thing that I immediately thought of was to NOT judge her (liar, cheater, etc) but to listen and see if I could really hear her. I tell you, that REALLY made a difference because if I had judged her at the start, the finish would have been VERY different, that much I know for sure.
Quote: How to deal with your own pain? Do you, and all DBer's, learn to push the pain away, stop thinking about it? Does it have to be dealt with eventually to keep resentment from building up or to avoid an explosion?
I bolded that question because I think understanding this is one of the hardest, and most important aspects of making this stuff work. You deal with the pain, or at least I dealt with it by first, REALLY BELIEVING that it was NOT ABOUT ME all the time, or really, any of the time when it came to the affair. Then I had to learn to deal with the pain of realizing that the woman I loved spent a large part of her life now not caring about me.
To deal with THAT pain, I had to learn that I really could not control my W and if she chose not to care about me, well, there wasn't much I could do about it.
Then, with all that emotion swirling around all the time, despite my best intentions not to allow it to control me, I had to learn that I actually LIKED the pain and once I realized THAT sad little fact, I was able to make a different choice...to like being happy much better.
The fact is that anger, pain, resentment, etc, are all reactions to stimuli. That are NOT generated directly by someone else, as if we can't control it. There is NO access granted to ANYONE to our emotional "switches". We merely have reactions, and allow these reactions to get out of control.
I am not here to tell you that you can control your emotions 100%...or even 50%. Hell, I still cry at a sad movie. What I am saying is that yes, through a combination of learning what pain is "real" and what is self-inflicted, and then learning to vent the "real" pain and allow yourself to get past it, you can avoid the resentment and "explosion" that often plagues us in our sitches.
By no means have I been close to perfect in this respect, but I do strive to be better every day. You don't think I believe I DESERVE a certain amount of pity and pain? You betcha, but I know better now...and I fight it every day.
Quote: I was sad that the tears W cried for him seemed to be tears of love, while the tears she cries for me seem to be tears of guilt, but I moved on. I know it must be very hard for her. I wish I could make it better for her, but I can't.
Don't read her mind. You thinking her tears for him were "love" and her tears for you were "guilt" makes you as idealistic and nieve as she is. Love comes in many forms and her guilt over hurting you is as valid an expression of love as some pitter-patter of the heart is for him.
As always, another eloquently written post. You so get this DB stuff. It is really great that you have been able to help so many on this board in the last year!
So much of what happens to us LBS's is based on fear. Fear of abandonment, fear of not being good enough, fear that we cannot control our WAS's. You have learned to overcome that fear. You have learned that you cannot control someone else. You have learned that you are good enough and that what happened with OP has nothing to do with you. Sure you may have contributed to your W's loss of feelings for you but you had nothing to do with her choice to have an A. She and other WAS's did that on all on their own. Now that they have come to the realization that they want to stay married to us, they have to live with the consequences of their actions. So while we feel hurt and betrayed they probably have even more &hit going on in their heads like shame and guilt.
In the long run we each must choose to live our life to the fullest and not look to others to "make" us happy. We can choose to be sad, miserable martyrs or we can hold our heads up high and be strong in the face of crisis. We can find joy and love in all that we do. Unconditional love makes me think of my dog; there are days when I don't want to pet her, days when I yell because she barks too much or brings mud in on her paws or chews up one of the kids toys BUT she still loves me - day after day and really asks for nothing in return.
