Ok Mama, you locked up my last thread so I will respond here (since yours is locked too).
Running said some things that really hit home, but in reverse.
Quote: Have you ever expressed yourself sexually in a desperate or needy way? I'm trying to imagine what that would look like. I know this can be difficult because I do remember before the divorce wanting to be desired by my husband, but not having his interest and not knowing how to inspire it. I remember buying some sexy things, but feeling much too intimidated to wear them or feeling silly about the whole thing. That's probably what you mean by desperate. I can understand that.
I think this sums up my W's experience to a "T". She never felt comfortable BEING sexual/sexy even though she got plenty of attention and compliments from me and most other men she's met.
Quote: Unfortunately, the only way I got to this point was divorce. And sadly that's how I've noticed other women getting to this too. Sometimes it's these life changing experiences that allow us to grow in unexpected ways.
And for my W, it was her affair that was the life changing thing that made her realize not only was she "sexual" but she needed that from her marriage if she was going to stay married. From there, she was a LOT more expressive and dropped the whole "I can't wear THAT to bed", or "I can't DO that, or ask HIM to do that to me". It must feel extremely liberating for my W to finally be able to just "be" in a way that gets her what she wants...I'm just glad it's me giving it to her.
Quote: Sadly, it wasn't my husband that made me feel desired, but going out with girlfriends during my divorce, actually looking at other men (I'm oblivious to them during marriage!), and finally realizing that other men found me attractive and sexy that made me feel this way.
Again, as I have said, I would not take back this past year even if I could, it this is one of the reasons. In some twisted way, OM actually did me a favor by waking something up in my W that had little to do with him and everything to do with HER desire to be satisfied. Once that was awakened and we started to be able to communicate better...BAM, things were 1000% different.
Mama, she's right, you have to take what seems like a risk to be what you want. It's not foolish, silly or anything else be sexy/sexual. I think you suffer from the same lack of confidence that your H sees you as sexy/sexual but IMHO, that is really projection from you onto him. YOU don't see yourself that way and it's because you're waiting for him to tell you that you are. Stop waiting. You are what you make of yourself, or in this case, what you allow yourself to express.
I guess I am saying to you what OT said to me countless times. Pin him to the wall, kiss him harder than he's ever been kissed before then take him to the bedroom and f--k the crap out of him. If, anywhere along the way, he balks at that, just keep walking...um...do that to yourself and try again the next day.
The point is that you now understand what you want and it's time to go get it!
I know you said you had a hard time understanding the Book Passionate marriage,, On page 75 I had Highlighted this for myself... SEX becomes beautiful when we bring our personal beauty into it. The issue isnt simply who your parner is, whether you are in love, or how good you can do it.IT'S WHO YOU ARE.
TO GET REALLY GRAPHIC HERE WHEN I MET MY H I WAS VERY SURE OF MYSELF AND FELT VERY SEXY,, I TOOK THAT WITH ME TO THE BEDROOM NOT B/C HE MADEME FEEL THIS WAY BUT B/C I already felt his way and he complimented it. Our sex life was Fantastic, I was not worried about how I looked or how I sounded or what I was doing it just came from within and I was amazing,,,,, then came the three kids three years in a row and boom that part of me disappeared..,.. I was In MOM MODE.....
I tried hard to get that me back in the last few years but it never seemed to come back ( that part of me was hidden very well, After all a good Catholic Girl isnt supposed to be a Highly ensual Being too,(( I used to feel like this, tooo much))))) like I told you yesterday , when I find the passage I will pass it along, But GOD actually wants you to enjoy your H and yourself it is a blessing to have such Beauty in your love Making),,
I was too worried , can the kids hear me, ,I am being selfsh cause I want to be in my bedroom for hours ML to him, the dishes arent done,, oh gees I forgot to pay that darn bill etc etc,,,,,
Shortly before the bomb I went out and got the BOOK PM and many lightbulbs went off.
By me not allowing myself to feel sexy or let myself be taken by my H or just relaxing and being a Woman and putting MOM MODE on the back burner for just a bit and just really letting my hair down ,, I WAS MAKING MY H FEEL UNDESIRED, UNWANTED AND JUST PLAIN AWFUL. ( he himself told me this) When we reconciled and one nite ( of many) that we were ML , I remember I truly just let go and was really just with him, I was not worried about the kids or anything and for a moment was not comparing myself to the OW and he said to me,, this is what I have been waiting for this is amazing.
I think when we truly love ourselves and are really putting ourselves into ML our H'S can really sense and feel who we are and it makes it so much better not just Hot and sexy but it takes it to a whole new level of ENJOYMENT/INTIMACY.
SORRY FOR RAMBLING BUT I USED TO BE EXACTLY WHERE YOU ARE AT ( AND I AM CATHOLIC TOO ..) AND WHEN I LET GO AND JUST PUT MYSELF INTO IT , I can honestly tell you our Sex life now is the best it has ever been.This whole subject is a very complicated one and yet you are getting fabulous advice here this place is awesome. Best wishes to you sweetie,, God bless...
Ali nailed it Mama. It really does have to do with the almost spiritual feeling of your own sexuality that can transcend these kinds of situations.
However you express that is up to you but you should be able to find a way that balances who you are as a spiritual being with that of your sexual being. They CAN coexist, expecially in the context of marriage where many things are "ok" in the grand scheme of things.
Got a major slap down from my W last night. Things were going along ok. We were cleaning the house for a X-mas party we're having this weekend. I had my iPod on and was in my "mode" to get things done. My W perceived this as a "mood" since I rarely put the "pod" on and jam out around the house. She thought I was upset over having to clean or something.
Anyway, she started a convo by laying into me about this supposed "mood". I calmly told her she was wrong about that and I was happy to be getting things done. I said it with a genuine smile and no defensiveness...but that was not all she had to say. I guess that was her doorway to getting some things off her chest.
Basically, in a nutshell, she said I had not changed at all. She said that I was still VERY angry with the kids, yelling all the time, and got into pissy, passive/aggressive moods when things didn't go my way, especially on the weekends.
I did get a bit defensive but that evaporated quickly...when I realize she was right. I told her I would work to change that, and it was going to change starting "right now". She even got upset at that, saying I do that all the time too, making promises or acting like I can just wave a magic wand and make everything better.
I didn't do a great job in this convo validating her. In the end, we talked a lot about S6 whose behaviour has taken a big turn for the worse. We think my constant yelling and lack of time spent with him may be contributing to this. I really think it's true.
I hate that I have gone back to this, and just how quickly it happened.
The worst part was that we talked a LOT about expectations. She said I have expectations about EVERYTHING and especially when it comes to things I want to do. She said it puts constant pressure on her to make sure that whatever I expect to happen, happens or else she gets a bad mood, ruined days and lots of anger towards the kids.
Dammit, she's 100% right. F--k me! I sit here and give all this advice to you all and I can't even live my own words. I am ashamed to say the least. I feel like I really let myself down, and my W. Especially my kids. I have been treating them with less than the love they deserve and the worst part about it is that things have never been better in terms of my marriage. WTH????
I am really going to work harder than I ever have to curb this behavior. I need to do as I tell people here all the time, and STOP BUILDING EXPECTATIONS!!!
Life over the past week or so has really felt like it used to feel, before all this, before all the "good" stuff that happened as a result of all this. In short, it felt like my "old marriage" and I guess that feeling was not limited to me.
I really hate this, as much because of what I allowed to happen as that the way it came out was the same as it used to be, late at night, in a tear-filled convo initiated by my W.
Yes, it's good she came out and said something, but I really wish she'd done it a week or two ago. I really thought I had this stuff under control. I feel like an alcoholic that thought one drink wouldn't hurt...I guess this fight against anger and expectation is going to be life-long.
Wow, GH, I am honored that you opened up a new thread with me as the topic. Thanks, I'll open a new one for myself and see if I can remember how to link.
I remember OT telling you to pin your wife against the wall. You were very hesitant at first, yet when you finally did, amazing things happened. So...I will definitely try it. What is the worst thing that can happen? He will stand there like an unresponsive mannequin as he has done several times.
Alimari, you described things pretty well. When H and I first met I was very confident about who I was. We were crazy in love and the sex was fantastic, spontaneous, uninhibited and fun. Then came one pregnancy after another; I was pregnant 6 times in 8 years (2 miscarriages, 1 stillborn and 3 beautiful children) and this took a toll on our R. I was grieving the children lost, and exhasuted from the ones I had; 2 were 16 months apart with the oldest having colic.
Now that my kids are a bit older and not quite so dependant on me I find that I no longer need or have to be Mom 24/7, I can also be my H's lover (which I should have been all along but did not know it).
Years of an almost non-existant sex life left my H feeling unwanted and undesired - kind of like how I feel now. This is what led to his A, he obviously started getting the attention he was missing from OW and it made him feel good so he acted on it. Although it hurts me like hell I really can't blame him.
Sorry GH, I will now attempt to move this to a new thread of my own.
GH, Do not beat yourself up over this little incident. It is just a bump in the road. This is life. You have been concentrating so hard on your M/R that you maybe let other things slide. Just try to find a balance. Your W telling you that you haven't changed is just her anger talking, you have changed, alot. As far as yelling at the kids, we all do that, sometimes it is hard not to. We are juggling with 20 balls in the air and just the sheer stress of it all gets us a little cranky.
GH,,,, Yesterday was like you were walking along and "thinking" evrything is great I am going to put on my Ipod and do this and THEN------------- she tells you well you know what buddy you have not changed that much,,and basically you feel like she put her foot out and you tripped !
get up and rollup your sleeves HONEY and get back to letting go of all that stuff.
....yes it will be a life long thing you have to pay attention to,, for me it is when I get dark again and I am not as Happy as I should be and it is sooo easy to slip back into how we used to be to certain extent it is a part of who we are,,, and yet with all you have learned you can do it ,,,,,it will just take a constant effort until it is just a part of who you are. You know and we all know here that you can do this.
BTW,, my H HATES when I wear my Ipod around him cause in the past yes I would wear it to block out evrything else,, did you used to do this? or not? For me I just love music and so in the past it helped me to wear it and now he associates it with me being angry,, once since reconciling I tried to wear it just like you did yesterday and I could tell he did not like it,, it took him back and so I do not wear it all when he is home.
....even for me when I expect him to act a certain way like he used to I am pleasantly surprised when I am wrong and he has changed. I think it is Fantastic that she told you all this,, she could have just swept it under the rug and pretended evrything is just FABULOUS,, but she does not want just a Mediocre M she wants a EXTRAORDINARY ONE and AN EXTRAORDIANERY FAMILY TOO. AWESOME!!!!
Instead of being upset you should feel Great that she is not going to let you be the old you that got you to a bad pLAce she wants to help you be the Man she knows you are underneath it all. You are blessed Honey to have such loving Wife and sure maybe she did not sound like it last nite but that is what she is doing ~~~~~~~ LOVING YOU~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
She will no longer settle for anything less and I do not believe you will either,,,, take this challenge to be who you need to be and look at like the best d*mn CHRISTMAS GIFT you will ever give yur family,, God has blessed you with your family and do your absolute best honey to give them the beautiful man you are and let go of expectations,,, you are blessed plain and simple. You worked so hard for this and the best gift you could ever give her or your children is ((a happy)) YOU. I still remeMber how you told me to use my voice and for me it is not natural to use my voice geez I would rather stay quiet , but I have seen that when I use my voice in a way that shows that I need this and do not want it or just start yelling out of frustration my voice gets heard and MY H and I both are in a much better place,, he wants to hear me and it has ben amazing and I cannot Thank You or others here enough for telling me that. I must admit to you that the other day he was telling me I have gotten a little chubby and I used my voice ( in a calm but assertive way) and I was saying something like,, "Oh yeah I am chubby well you know what thats why I didnt want to eat what you made for me, fine I wont eat,, in a joking tone... he smiled and actually said he was getting turned on by me being assertive,,,,,
I was shocked to say the least ~~ he was "visibly" turned on and then I aksed him,," I thought you would not like me being that way and he replied" Honey there is a big difference between being a B*TCH and being how you were being, do not get confused there is a difference and I like when you act like that!!!!! ~wow~~~~~~~~
I was speechless...
So instead of thinking of this as a problem look at it in a different way,, it is a blessing she told you,,, she could have not said a word and you would have never known. May God bless you and your family sweetie,, this will all be ok and now you know what she needs from you.Today is a new day and you will do just fine ,,, your blessings are many. God bless....
Oh, Mama, I KNOW I have changed in many ways but this thing, this anger of mine, it's largely what was responsible for my W straying (at least MY part of it anyway) and I hate that I have gotten so confortable with things that I let myself slip back into that mode.
It's not just once incident. It's a behavioral pattern I have been in for years and was only out of for a short time while in the thick of this whole affair business.
Let this be a STRONG warning to everyone. If you let your guard down, $hit can go back to bad REALLY quickly.
I know this was just a temporary set-back but it was a HUGE wakeup call for me. I really did think I was not acting differently. I thought my anger was under control. I said that over and over again last night to her. It made her cry because she sees something SO different that I see.
Her perception may not be 100% correct but neither is mine...and sadly, mine is much less correct than hers.
I got lazy, I really did. I thought things were just going to take care of themselves again. I thought I didn't have to try anymore. No matter what lip-service I paid to my efforts, I really did slack off and I WILL NOT DO THAT AGAIN!
Thank you Ali SO much. You are right of course. I already am thinking of it as a positive thing...or should I say I already was but you crystallized it for me.
As for her knowing that the "real me" is underneath this anger and "moodiness", well, maybe, maybe not. That was part of what got me so upset, the fact that she used almost the same language last night as she did when the $hit really hit the fan all those months ago. I was a great dad, great provider, etc, etc, etc but just SO angry and SO moody that she had trouble standing to be around me anymore. She was tired all the time and emotionally drained from trying to manage 3 kids (me being one of them) that throw a tantrum when things don't go their way.
Now, I realize that she is exaggerating but still, there is truth in there too.
I am up Ali, and I don't even have any sleeves so I am ready to work my a$$ off and make damn sure I give them that present of my happiness starting today!
I have NO FrEAKING reason in the world to be unhappy.
I have a beautiful family who love me very much and I need to start behaving in kind!
Thanks again.
GH
P.S. No, in our house, it's my W who always walks around with the iPod on and me who has to wave my arms to get her attention. Last night was a rare time when I did likewise.
