Just getting started piecing it back

[jersting]

My WAW showed up at my house sunday morning at 2:30 am. She said that she realized that she loved me and she wanted to spend the rest of her life with me. We have not moved back in together because I have had so many words from her that I feel like I need to see action before we can move back in together. Since that night she is still not wearing wedding rings, she still has not called her lawyer to call off the D. I had the kids last night so she came to my house. I told her that I needed to talk when we had a couple seconds without the kids being right there. She said we would, but after I put them to bed, she feel asleep and woke up about a half hour later and said she wanted to go home and go to bed. I am begining to wonder if I really want this r or not. I know I love my wife and I want to keep my family together, but I don't want to love someone who does not love me. I am at a loss today. I did e-mail wife and asked if we could get together today while kids are at school so we can talk, but I have not heard back from her yet.


I'm looking for grasshopper's help with this, but will welcome any advice I get.

Wife and I are trying to put things back together. I stayed at house with her Wednesday night because she asked me to. We had a few beers and she decided she wanted to go to the bar where everyone goes the night before thanks giving. I knew it was a bad idea because in this small town every one knows everyones business and they all acted really strange around my wife. The only reason I agreed to go was that I knew she was testing me to see if I would be willing to go to my hangouts and hold her hand and let people know we are a couple still. She had heard about the girl I met a couple weeks ago and she wanted me to describe her to her so she could pick her out in the bar. I didn't describe the girl, I just told her that I would point her out if I seen her. We were there about 20 minutes and my wife went kinda goofy. We left and had the biggest fight we have ever had. she was cussing at me for talking to another girl and I lost it. I told her that I have never ever talked to another girl until she told me in front of 2 lawyers in our first D hearing that she wanted a D. I said that she was the one talking to someone else while we were married and it was BS that she was going to hold something like this over my head. I stayed with her that night and just kept telling her that I was here with her and if I did want something else, I would not be here now. She eventually cooled down and fell asleep. The next morning when we got up she acted like nothing was wrong at all. (go figure) Anyway we had a nice Thanksgiving dinner with her family and she asked me to stay again last night. I said I had some things to do at home but I would come back later. I asked her that if she was in bed when I got back would she want me to come in and snuggle with her. Her hessitated reply was we'll see. This upset me and I said I was going to leave and I didn't know if I would be back for sure or not. Well... I went back about midnight and when I crawled in to bed she just stayed on her side and I laid there for a while. About 1/2 hour later I woke her and said this was'nt right, it was just the way it was before the problem and she said I know I just don't want to talk now. She then scooted over by me and rubbed my arm. She fell back asleep holding my arm. This morning I walked her to her car when she left and she told me that she loved me. It shocked me to say the least. I told her that I loved her too and to be carefull on way to work and have a nice day. she has called me already today to see how my day is going and she is wearing her wedding rings. The next thing I would like to happen before I move back into house is for my lawyer to call me and tell me that she has cancelled the divorce or at least put it on hold. I am pretty sure that my wife has some sort of mental problem and she either needs to get it worked out or we are going to end up divorced because it is extremely difficult for me to stay in this type of sitch. I love her and I will do what I can, but I am afraid if I suggest counsiling to her for herself, she will go nuts on me.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB24&Number=1271595&Forum=UBB24&Words=jersting&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1week&Main=1255047&Search=true#Post1271595
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on the same end of a string as a yo-yo

[cat03]

hi, you are right, she does have some kind of issues that only she can figure out, she sort of knows what she wants but is second guessing herself.
How about marital counceling together so she doesn't feel singled out? My H had loads of issues but the only way he'd see a C was if we went together to a MC.

You are right at being cautios, she isn't quite well, she is on her way to rock bottom or maybe struggling there. Don't rush her nor rush to make any other decisions, play it by ear and don't push it (e.i: asking to cuddle, etc) she is trying to find her way back to you but is afraid still, dont' blow it by asking for too much.

but I don't want to love someone who does not love me.

Well, when I took my H back I knew his feelings were not all there for me, he pretty much told me "I dont' hate you but I dont'...either". It was a hard thing to take but I accepted that, he was broken and did come home empty and not able to give me much, it was all up to me if I wanted him back like that.

I could've very well said "well, you still have many issues, come back when you are all fixed" He came back to try to build our M again, for months he wasn't quite himself and even though he was the one who had the A and hurted me I got no reassurances nor had him try to make me feel better.

I had to accepted him as he was, all he had was a desire to commint to our M again, and at the first session w/our MC our C told us that feelings (love) come and go, but the one things that keeps an M together after many years is commitment.

She is actually is able to say she loves you! I have not heard those words from my H and he's been home w/me for a few months already, although his actions do tell me he cares for me and that we are connecting again I still yearn to hear ILY.

Don't push her, she is trying to make her mind up, give her time, I know it is maddening, but remember, she is not on the same pg as you. The affection and the rest will come later, right now focus on trying to connect w/her again.

[grasshopper]

Before I just jump right in and comment on a sitch that obviously has some history, is there something specific you think I can help with right now?

In addition to anything direct I can help with now, maybe for everyone in piecing's benefit, as well as mine, you can summarize where you've been, where you are, and where you think things are going.

I am flattered you asked for me to help you and only hope I can do something for you.

GH

[jersting]

My wife says she wants to stay married to me. The thing is, I am not convinced from her actions. I think she is still talking to OM. She says she is not and I catch her lying alot. It is hard for me to gain trust in her. I don't know if I should be closing my eyes about the OM conversations and just move foward with her hopeing this will go away or if I should stay seperated from her until the OM is completely out of the picture and I know it for sure. She tells me they never had a PA, but I know they had been talking on phone for a least 4 months and had some run ins from what my kids tell me. I don't believe she did not have a PA because she continues to lie to me on other things. Do I over look these lies and act like everthing is fine?

[toughlover]

I don't know if I should be closing my eyes about the OM conversations and just move foward with her hopeing this will go away or if I should stay seperated from her until the OM is completely out of the picture and I know it for sure.

That's a tough call and I'm sure GH can be more help on that cause that sounds like what I read he experienced/endured.

However, if you're currently separated now and you don't want to deal with that kind of stuff should you move back together, there are probably a lot of ways to handle that...this is probably what I would do if my W and I were in this sitch:

Set some boundaries for reconciling and tell her that I love her, want to reconcile, want to rebuild the marriage, but that I don't think that's really possible so long as someone else is in the picture, and while I'm willing to commit to this, it ought to be done in an honest, transparent, and constructive manner...no games, no adolescent silliness.

I mean, if you end up living together but she's still doing that kind of stuff, you'd have to recognize that all you can really do is work on you anyhow, take care of yourself and the kids as best you can, and pretty well detach from her until she's willing to come around and commit. While she's living at home she's in the best position to see positive changes in you and get a glimpse of what she could be having/getting reacquainted with.

And don't think that just because you ignore her behavior it doesn't have an effect. I don't think a person can live with her family and continue to lie and cheat without feeling the pressure, just naturally, from the situation they've put themself in. The key, I think, is to let her come to that conclusion on her own. Cause the facts are that she's an adult and will do what she wants whether you like it or not.

[grasshopper]

Ok, I'll try this one.

My wife says she wants to stay married to me.

That's a really good sign. She WANTS to stay married to you but maybe isn't finding the desire to do what she needs to do to make that happen. As I say all the time to different people here, and this is mainly based on MY personal experience so take it for what it's worth, your W probably wants to be moved by you. She wants to FEEL like she should stay, not just THINK she should. That's where DB comes in, and where your work on yourself is paramount. In order to stir feelings in her that OM is probably/did probably stir, you have to learn to be yourself in her presence, something I think many of us forgot along the way, instead becoming something we think we need to be to make the marriage work. The catch 22 is that in becoming that person we THINK will make the marriage work, i.e. the man who goes to work every day to make ends meet, plays with the kids, mows the lawn, etc, etc, etc, we forget the most important, well the TWO most important things in a marriage; ourselves and our wife.

Learn to satisfy both your desires and then those of your wife and you'll learn to move her towards FEELING like she wants to be married to you.

I think she is still talking to OM. She says she is not and I catch her lying alot. It is hard for me to gain trust in her.

Elaborate on this. Do you just THINK she is talking to OM or have you got proof that she is? You say you catch her lying a lot. Are you SURE she is lying or do you just suspect she is just because things she says don't add up? I know for the longest time I felt that just about everything my W said to me about what she did when she was away from the house sounded like a lie. It sounded like a lie because it didn't include that 2 hour phone call I was SURE she had (she had to have, right?) with OM, or the secret meeting I knew they had when I couldn't get her on her cell phone for those 45 minutes around lunch time (I mean how could she NOT have been with him).

Well, turns out that more than a few times I thought I caught her lying, she was not. She simply (or not so simply) just didn't understand the depth of my paranoia and how easy it was for her to help with that. It took one conversation a few weeks into what I consider our "real" reconciliation time where I expressed what I needed from her in order to feel "safe" about things, that she finally started "getting it" and from that point on, she made more calls to me, was MUCH more descriptive about where she went and who she was with and the best part about it was that she wasn't angry about having to do it. She finally understood.

I am not saying to have this convo with your W today. I just think you really need to realize that you DON'T know all you think you know, and do know more than you realize. The lies you think she's telling are out of context. You don't know WHY she lied, if she even did.

I don't know if I should be closing my eyes about the OM conversations and just move forward with her hoping this will go away or if I should stay separated from her until the OM is completely out of the picture and I know it for sure.

First off, you're paying WAY too much attention to what MAY be going on, or not. IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON with her & him, it's what's going on with you.

The sooner you put OM out of your mind, the better off you'll be. You don't just close your eyes to the conversations (of which you know nothing about other than they MAY be happening), you learn to deal with the fact that they have little to do with your overall sitch.

IF she is going to be with him, then she'll be with him. Your actions CAN have an effect on that but I suspect the effect would be greater if you showed her love, compassion, kindness and passion rather than paranoia, fear and resentment.

Finally on this note, you'll probably NEVER be 100% sure OM, or some other OM is not in the picture until you are back in a committed R with her and even then, because of all this you may have that twinge of doubt creep in every now and then.

I know for me it's been a few months now since we truly reconciled and I have to say I hardly ever think about OM. I think it's easy to see in hindsight that what I have said about putting OM out of your mind is the right thing to do because I know in my sitch, my inability to focus on me and my issues, instead focusing on OM some of the time, set me back and built unnecessary resentment on both our parts.

When I found out my W talked to OM recently, it didn't surprise me, nor particularly worry me. Reason being that I don't believe he has power over her. Just talking to him can't make her jump in the sack with him. She is more of a person than that. I truly see that now. She can make up her own mind and it's my job to continue to make sure the marriage is as healthy/great an option as I can make it...as it is her responsibility too.

She tells me they never had a PA, but I know they had been talking on phone for a least 4 months and had some run ins from what my kids tell me. I don't believe she did not have a PA because she continues to lie to me on other things. Do I over look these lies and act like everything is fine?

Now I will get a little more forceful. Stop assuming that just because you suspect she's lying, that she is. It's foolish and counterproductive. Concentrate on what you CAN control, i.e. YOUR actions, YOUR words and stop trying to figure all this out.

The fact is that there is going to come a point where you'll have to take a HUGE risk in starting to trust her, probably in the face of some things that LOOK like lies but you will just have to realize that your mind has been conditioned to expect that from her. DROP ALL EXPECTATIONS.

Yes, there is a chance, maybe a good one, that trusting her, even a little bit will backfire on you and you'll get hurt again, maybe not as badly as before, but hurt never-the-less. Trust me, it's a risk you'll have to take because I don't think it's possible to learn to trust from the outside looking in, which is what we'd all like to do in sitches like ours. We want to stand on the outside of the R and somehow get 100% assurance that all is well when deep down we know that the only way we'll ever know that is to really have it be well, something it can't be with all the mistrust, resentment and anger we harbor.

Let go of your anger. Learn to trust yourself enough to take the risks you need to take. Let her in your heart enough to see what lives there.

In any conflict, one side usually has to put down their weapons first, has to tear down the walls. In this case, it may need to be you.

Just remember, if something happens (and I mean something REAL, not just something your paranoia THINKS happened) this time it won't be like last time. You are FULLY aware of the potential for pain and you WILL deal better with that pain if it should ever come again.

SO, yes, as the books say, "act as if" and learn to just "be" again. Stop living in your head, center yourself and move forward (there, I used every cliché in the book).

I think things are going well from what I can see but this is the point where it's essential for you to stand up and be who you want to be, not just a man reduced to fear and suspicion.

GH

[SvenTheRed]

I think things are going well from what I can see but this is the point where it's essential for you to stand up and be who you want to be, not just a man reduced to fear and suspicion.

This is good GH!

How easy it can be when piecing to get "comfortable" in the ways of old. Instead, real progress happens when we get comfortable in the ways of "new".

I liked this a lot....good advice.

Sven

[jersting]

Are you SURE she is lying or do you just suspect she is just because things she says don't add up?

I know for a fact she lied about having her private cell phone with her on sunday and she was on it when I tried to call. I asked her why she was on it and she said she wasn't, she said she didn't even have it. I found out from her that she did have it and she told me the reason she lied about it was so we would not have a fight.

Yes, there is a chance, maybe a good one, that trusting her, even a little bit will backfire on you and you'll get hurt again, maybe not as badly as before, but hurt never-the-less.

Yesterday we spoke on the phone a few times, she called me just as soon as I got off work, we just talked real brief and she said she would call me later. I waited until just before the time she goes to bed and asked if she was waiting for me to call or if she just did not want to talk. She replied that she thinks we went in to it too fast and she doesn't know if she is willing to give 110% right now. So I am at loss right now.

[jersting]

I posted yesterday and as you can see, things seemed to be going in the right direction. As soon as I got off work, she called me. We talked about D10 taking off school on thursday to go with friends family shoping. I told her that I did not really want her to go but the final decision was up to w. She said ok, I have to go and I will call later and I said ok. I waited until just before she goes to bed and I called and asked if she did not want to talk to me or if she was waiting for me to call. She said she was waiting for me to call. Then she said she didn't know if she was ready to work on this. she said it shouldn't be this hard for us to get together and it must not be right. She thinks we went at it too much too fast. She was sad, mad, hurt and tired of fighting. She said that she didn't think that I was trying either and that maybe we should not be together. She said she loved me and knew that but she just didn't know if she wanted to work on this right now. I asked if she was going to go ahead with the divorce and she said she could put it on hold if she wanted to. She asked if I was allright and I said yes, I am ok. I am not happy about this but i am ok. I said I didn't want to talk any more and I had to go. I went to house late last night and woke her up to talk to me. She asked why I was there so late. I replied because our marriage is hanging by a string. I asked why she was pushing me away and she said she didn't know. She said I screwed up the night she came and told me she wanted us to stay together, she said I should not have let her leave. (i tried to stop her, but she said we would get together later). I asked if she wanted me to walk away from her and she said she didn't know. I hugged her before I left and told her that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her and that I would love her forever, but I can't stay in this sitch any longer. I turned and walked out. I think I heard her sob a little as I was walking away. I have full intentions of walking away from her now and see if she trys to stop me. If she does not try to stop me I will know that she does really want the divorce.

[grasshopper]

Jersting,

A bit of the stick is comming out today. Sorry in advance.

I wonder if you read what I wrote to you and what you thought of it. I tend to get long winded sometimes but I'd like to think most of it may be useful to you, or at the very least, gets you to think (even if it's 'that GH is full of $hit). Do you have any response to my last post?

Anyway, if you did read that, you either reject most of what I had to say, or you don't get it.

I'll try again. I am looking for a dialog with you to see if anything I am saying is making sense or if you think I am way off base...

She doesn't need to be forced to make a decision right now.

Why would a woman who isn't sure she wants to get back with you fight to keep you from walking away? Do you really want the reason she stays with you to be fear or love?

She said she was waiting for me to call.

That's because she KNOWS you will call. She knows because she thinks you can't help yourself, and you can't. If she said she'd call you, let her call you. DON'T CALL HER. You want to take the step to "walk away from her" but you can't take the much smaller step of being much less available to her so she understands what that will be like? Sounds like the cart before the horse to me.

Then she said she didn't know if she was ready to work on this. she said it shouldn't be this hard for us to get together and it must not be right. She thinks we went at it too much too fast.

She thinks WE want it too much too fast, or that YOU want it too much too fast? Is she saying she wants it but is confused about her feelings or did she really mean you are pushing too hard? In either case, it sounds like she is NOT ready to give up yet. People that are ready to give up just do, they don't talk about it, especially to the one they're giving up on.

She was sad, mad, hurt and tired of fighting.

Anger, sadness, pain and fighting are NOT the opposite of love, apathy is. Sounds to me like she still cares and is tired of caring because it hurts too much...yet she can't help it.

She said that she didn't think that I was trying either and that maybe we should not be together. She said she loved me and knew that but she just didn't know if she wanted to work on this right now.

That implies that SHE is trying? Oh, and newsflash that she isn't sure you should be together.

She doesn't know if she wants to work on this right now because it's hard. There is SO much anger and resentment that it makes it hard to want to be around you, let alone get back into a marriage with you. You HAVE to understand this. Until she sees you/the marriage as THE safe, best place to be, she won't WANT to be there and that's not good.

Calm down, take a breath and LISTEN to her. She is telling you what she wants both with what she IS saying and what she is NOT saying. She doesn't want to feel like she's trying. She wants to feel love. She wants to feel passion, but not the sort that feels more like need than want. She wants to BE safe and BE happy, not just feel like it's a distant possibility.

I said I didn't want to talk any more and I had to go.

And then....

I went to house late last night and woke her up to talk to me.

Um...guy, you need to understand that desperation, need, sadness, etc, are not a way to a woman's heart. I know it's REALLY hard to project anything else, but the least you can do is to avoid these kinds of overt displays of neediness. She could have waited until tomorrow to talk. YOU said you needed to stop talking. Leave it at that.

BTW, there is a part of the DB philosophy that directly says not to have R talks. That is a part of the book you need to re-read.

A wise woman once told me that there are many things in life, and in these sitches that only need to be said once. Many of the things you keep saying to her are sincere the first time, desperate, coercive words the next dozen times you say them to her. She KNOWS what you want and she KNOWS how badly she hurt you. To keep talking about all these issues is not helping and IMHO, only serves to keep her feeling bad about the situation, which is not what you want.

replied because our marriage is hanging by a string.

And it hasn't been? Why was this night's thread SO much more delicate that it needed immediate attention? Not only do you not have R talks, but you certainly don't go that far out of your way to do so.

Like I said, I know you wanted her to know you cared, but she already knows that. She just needs to SEE and FEEL what that caring/love is going to do for her. Is it going to breed necessary change in you or just keep you dependant/needy/hurt over her? Can you use this to pick yourself up, or will she feel she has to do that as well as mend all the wounds SHE has?

I asked why she was pushing me away and she said she didn't know.

Because after all this time of trying (in her mind) she doesn't trust the R you two had. Maybe she is pushing you away because she doesn't trust you/the marriage.

She said I screwed up the night she came and told me she wanted us to stay together, she said I should not have let her leave. (i tried to stop her, but she said we would get together later).

Grasping at straws here...it seems like, like my W and according to OT and other women on this board, your W is looking for decisive action born out of love and passion FOR HER. "Don't let me leave" she said. In your mind, you're thinking "But I want to respect your wishes and you wanted to leave so I let you." You were trying to do the right thing and it's REALLY hard to know when doing something like preventing her from leaving would be the right thing rather than doing as she asks, but she's telling you that it is. She's telling you that she needed to FEEL like you didn't want her to go, not just think it. She already THINKS it.

I asked if she wanted me to walk away from her and she said she didn't know. I hugged her before I left and told her that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her and that I would love her forever, but I can't stay in this sitch any longer. I turned and walked out. I think I heard her sob a little as I was walking away. I have full intentions of walking away from her now and see if she trys to stop me.

Again, sorry for the 2x4 but it seems strange that the first action you take in standing up for what you want is to get up and leave. That's what SHE did and look where you are now. Be stronger than that.

Look, it comes down to this, and this alone. Either you want to be married or you want to be right. You either want to love her or you don't. You can't have it both ways. You ARE right. She DID hurt you, but if that's more important to you than keeping this marriage alive, then walk now.

If you want to make this work, you have to redirect some of that strength you THINK you are using to walk away and use it to get control over yourself.

Figure out what YOU want and if it's to be with this woman, then you can't walk away, at least not yet.

If she does not try to stop me I will know that she does really want the divorce

Um, no, you only know that she didn't try to stop you. Could be because she isn't sure that's what she wants, or that OM is out there waiting for her and LOOKS like a better option, or she simply couldn't swallow her pride enough to call out to you.

GH