EA, being "friends" with OW, and Boundaries Part 2

[inspiredjulie]

hi Nikki-

Just checking in. Just wanted to remind you that actions speak louder than words. Focus on his actions. Good luck. Have a great week. You sound great. Julie

[S.T. _I Made It!]

I'm glad to hear about the sex part. I'd still be cautious though. Only because in my experience, my H wouldn't always tell me the truth. I think mostly because he didn't want to hurt my feelings, and second because he didn't want to feel bad for hurting me.

It is great that you are so strong willed about the STDs. I was a wimp on that. Almost felt like I did when I first started having sex.. oh, it won't happen to me.. I was 24, mind you, old enough to know better (and we got pregnant in two weeks). But with me, I didn't even know about the OW until they had already done it probably a few times and I was pretty sure I had too. So then I was like, well, if there were any STDs, I'd have already gotten it anyways. horrible!!!! I know!! I just couldn't help myself! no will power whatsoever.

Hey. regarding the refinancing. The rates are the lowest they have been in over a year now, so it is a great time to do it. They've dropped like 2 times in the last month or so already. What is your rate now. I used to work at the bank long ago, so I'm pretty familiar with home loans. We're getting a Home Equity loan ourselves. If you want to email me personally about it, I could help you out if you want.

That would be really awkward if your H tries to set you up. He might also be having issues that he thinks maybe he's not good enough for you, or can't give you what you need. I don't know.

and YES, you really need to love yourself and you CAN get to that point. It's hard for me too. I really hated myself for a really long time. That's why it's so hard for me when my H never compliments me, no matter how good or how hard I tried to fix myself up. That's a big thing I'm trying to deal with now.

If you think about it. How can your H love you, if you don't love yourself? If you never learn to love yourself, you will never be truely confident, your changes won't be lifelong, and this whole DBing will have been for nothing. It will take time to learn, but you can do it, and GALing will definitely help. You already know that you are physically looking better everyday, and are feeling better everyday, and you know that you are fun to be with, and your H (even though he thinks he may want to end this) thinks your fun too because he wouldn't want to be spending time with you if he didn't. So you have all the reasons to LOVE yourself!!! God made you perfect in His eyes.

[NikB]

Thanks Julie! When I focus on his actions things seem very positive so I am trying to do that.

Stilltryin – yes, I’ll definitely be cautious. I’ve already caught him in a few lies (or more, lies of omission) when he didn’t want to hurt me. I am adamant about the STD thing and will make that very clear in MC and moving forward, if this whole S happens!! I can see why you had a hard time with that though – it’s not easy to think about.

Thanks for your offer of help on the refi! We were at 5.5% which is why it’s kind of painful to give up that rate!! It’s through Wells Fargo and they’re at 5.875% right now, though, so it’s not too bad. They have this “timesaver” loan that requires WAY less paperwork than going somewhere else and it’ll only cost us about $500, so we went ahead and applied for that.

Not only did H not try and set me up last night, he and his buddy ended up going to a place near our house to play pool and kept trying to get me to go! There are plenty of places near the buddy’s house they could have gone but instead they drove 20 minutes away, thought that was kind of strange. I went out and did fun stuff on the way home from work so I got back fairly late, and when I got home there were a bunch of messages on the machine trying to talk me into joining them. Nice! I guess the being mysterious and not calling worked!!! I didn’t end up going because I wanted to get some things done at home, but H actually came home at a somewhat normal time, even. Of course I made sure I was all dressed up and a little mysterious about why I got home so late.

You are absolutely right about loving myself – I am really looking forward to that journey!! If I can make it… no wait, WHEN I make it… I will be breaking a very long cycle of the women in my family hating themselves (mom, both grandmas, both great-grandmas as far as I know). Talk about feeling powerful!!

Stilltryin, I wish your H would compliment you more – you so deserve it!!! I wonder how to get it through his brain that it’s important? Hm. If I think of good ideas I’ll put them on your thread for you.

I am so nervous about our MC tonight. I know it’s going to be hard. I’m up for the challenge but it makes me kind of sick to my stomach too. I am going to have to be VERY strong about the house thing. I have a whole list of reasons and things I want to say ready to go. I’ll read them over and over before we go, so that I’m prepared. H will be pretty surprised when I stand up for myself, I think. The old me tended to be a major doormat so it’s a big 180… not one that will necessarily make him happy though. Although, I think he’ll admire the strength even if he doesn’t like what it means (him moving instead of me).

[NikB]

I know I just posted but thought my questions would stand out better in their own shorter post!

For our MC tonight, I had a couple of questions if anyone has a chance to answer. I have a whole spreadsheet including budget and things we’d each have to do before the S if it happens (i.e. mailing address changes, figure out lawn care, etc.). Should I bring it with me? Or is it something I should mention vaguely but keep to myself?

I want to convey the message that I’d prefer not to separate but that I’m prepared if it happens. I also don’t want to seem overly eager about it, and I want to be careful not to give away any information that might hurt me later. For example since we keep our money so separate and I pay all the bills, I don’t think H realizes that if we refi I can afford the house on my own but if we don’t, I can’t. I hate to think he’d do this to me, but there’s the possibility he could use that as leverage so that it’s more likely he gets to stay in the house. The refi will take 5-8 business days plus mailing time for the paperwork.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions, advice, etc.

[oldtimer]

Re STDs. I wouldn't put a whole lot of energy into talking about this. The only way to protect yourself from STDs is to assume he is having unprotected sex and act accordingly. Only in the context of a recommitted monogomous R AFTER you have had STD tests should you consider doing anything different.

People having affairs lie, no matter how much you ask them to tell you the truth. People who had affairs continue to lie, long after steps toward reconciliation are taken. People who had affairs may very well NEVER tell the truth.

What you are looking for is a promise that either he won't cheat or he will be honest with you about what he does if he cheats. Both promises are NOT worth the words with which they are uttered when people are not in a committed monogomous R in which there is love, openness, trust, and reassurance.

Nikki, I don't think that your WAS is the sole exception here. My point is not to make you feel bad. Rather, it is to (1) Encourage you to act like anyone else not in a monogomous committed R needs to do these days: practice safe sex. Don't ask what he has been doing, you can't trust his answers. Simply, practice safe sex, whatever that is for you. And, you should know that condoms do not protect 100% against any STD nor particularly well at all when it comes to herpes. (2) Don't use the STD talk to cover for your real message in MC. Your real message would probably be: "H, it is OK for you to move out as long as you continue to act like my H." But, this won't get you anywhere. H doesn't want to feel M to you. Emotionally, he probably doesn't feel M to you. You have got to accept that your H-W R is gone. If you have one in the future, it will need to be a new R. Of course, I'm sure that you also have a real concern about STDs that needs to be addressed and a desire to set a clear boundary. You can do this without trying to control him right now or putting yourself in a position where you have to "doubt him" to protect yourself in the future. Simply: "H, neither of us knows where this S will go. So, I just want to put a clear boundary in place. Any sexual activity between us will need to be safe sex. This is nonnegotiable."

Of course, if sometime in the future you are fully reconciled and in a committed monogomous R and have both been tested, then perhaps it would make sense to reconsider. But, for now, don't play with your health by making it part of the R dynamic.

Take your spreadsheet in your purse, but don't be too quick to pull it out unless you really need it. Identify the things that need to be addressed and collaborate in MC to find solutions, rather than trying to tell him how things will be.

This, of course, does not mean that you shouldn't be firm about not moving out. I'll tell you, though, I really wish I had been the one to move out. First, I wouldn't have been waiting for XH to "come home" all the time, I definitely would have been in a better frame of mind sooner. Second, I wouldn't have been left with the tons of stuff that still needs to be gone through, sorted, disposed of, etc... Third, when I got D, H and I had equal debt -- my debt was our old shared debt that was in my name, his debt was all new debt that he'd racked up getting his new place and new stuff. But, in the court's eyes, debt is debt, we were similarly positioned. (I still say NOT FAIR, lol.)

Best,
Oldtimer

[oldtimer]

Much briefer reply. For MC:

(1) Discuss ground rules for interaction: no grilling each other, understanding that you will both have your own private lives and that you will each respect that privacy, safe-sex non-negotiable.

(2) Handle the business in a businesslike manner. Discuss how resources will be shared. This is the first step that needs to be taken to figure out what the options are. Going with the status quo where you save and he spends will really put you at a disadvantage if you ever D. You will have savings, he will have debt. You will have demonstrated that you can make do with less and still save, while he will have shown that he needs more resources. At the same time, really try to find compromises. A quote from my mediator might be helpful here: "Unless you both feel like you are getting screwed, it probably isn't a fair deal." This seems to be unfortunate, but true.

Best,
Oldtimer

[NikB]

Oldtimer – you make some great points, thank you. I like your approach on the STD question/issue and have added it to my list of stuff I’m ‘practicing’ to say so I don’t forget or say it wrong. I know that seems silly but I fold under pressure big time and I have to be ready.

I hadn't thought about staying behind making it harder in terms of waiting for H to “come home.” Hmm, will have to think on that more. The sorting and stuff I think would actually be good for me. For some strange reason I find that kind of therapeutic. I’ve always been a BAD packrat and so have my parents. I just recently went through something like 25 boxes of stuff of mine they had “saved” for me and gave me when they D’d. Got it down to 2 very organized boxes - yay! It's one of my "old me" things that I am quite excited to be changing.

About the debt - right now we don’t have any debt besides the house and my car. H has always been pretty debt-averse so I don’t THINK he’ll run up a bunch of debt and I know I won’t – but especially if it’s MLC I guess there’s no way to know for sure. I’ll throw it out there in MC and see what happens. I wonder if there's a legal way to protect ourselves on this - sort of a "prenup" before the S?? Probably not but I will check.

Hey I just thought of something – aren’t you the one who wrote the “clingy coworker” post? I LOVE that post. I printed it out earlier this week to help remind myself to detach and work on letting the H-W R go. I’m not there yet, but working on it and I really like that analogy.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

Thanks for your offer of help on the refi! We were at 5.5% which is why it’s kind of painful to give up that rate!!

I guess I'm confused why you would refi? I guess you must be changing the term then huh. so instead of 8 years your doing a 15 year or something? Well, anything under 6 is an extremely great rate, so don't worry to much about that. I was so bad about always trying to get the best deal with the best price, blah blah, and it drove me crazy. okay, maybe I still do it, but I'm trying to get better. It only stresses you out more. What you really want to do is have a good rate with the lowest payment.

Go to this link and you can put in figures and even put in extra payments to see it all amortized and see how many years you can cut if you pay extra too.

mtg payment calc

Not only did H not try and set me up last night, he and his buddy ended up going to a place near our house to play pool and kept trying to get me to go!

That is WAY COOL!!!!

I will be breaking a very long cycle of the women in my family hating themselves (mom, both grandmas, both great-grandmas as far as I know).

Won't that be wonderful, maybe you can teach those women how to do it too?!?

Stilltryin, I wish your H would compliment you more – you so deserve it!!! I wonder how to get it through his brain that it’s important? Hm. If I think of good ideas I’ll put them on your thread for you.

That would be awesome! I'm not very creative

You definitely show you can stand up for yourself at MC. I would be way nervous too, I've never gone! But you can do it, show him the new you!

[S.T. _I Made It!]

Your real message would probably be: "H, it is OK for you to move out as long as you continue to act like my H."

quote by oldtimer...

For me, my real message would be.. It is okay for you to "act" like your single, and I will not expect you to act like my H in any way, but when it comes to sex with OW, unless you've given me D papers, it should not be something that I should have to accept as part of the S deal.

However, being a christian, I believe that sex is for M, and therefore, your H should not be having sex with OW while he's S from you because you are still, in fact, M to each other. This would really apply if he never had a PA with that OW.

On the other hand, who knows what frame of mind your H is in, whether it be an MLC or what, so you just have to do what you think is best to try and save your M.

I felt that God called me to be the best W that I could be, even though my H was not being an H to me. I even told him that. I said that I was going to love him the best way that I knew how, even though I despised what he was doing (the PA) and believed that it was against our M, against God and against the Law for that matter, but I knew what God wanted me to do. I just wish I could have been as strong willed as you with the STDs part of it. I even told him that I wasn't going to have sex with him because of it... but it didn't last long. ugh. I'm so weak!!!!

Anyways, I hope your MC went well, and you have lots of good news. If not, don't let your spirits get down, there are still lots of good things going for you and your M! Patience Patience Patience!!!!!

[NikB]

Thanks Stilltryin!

On the refi - yeah, we had 5.5% at 15 years. But we were paying extra so it was going to be paid off in about 8. Now we have 5.675% (had the #s wrong earlier) for 30 years. But, my thinking is that if it doesn't work out at least this buys us some time with minimal payments - and if it does, we can always make extra payments. Thanks for the calculator link, I will check it out.

I'll have to post tomorrow about how our MC went.. I'm so drained right now, feel like someone socked me in the gut. It went OK, but it's just HARD.