EA, being "friends" with OW, and Boundaries Part 2

[NikB]

Thanks Ellie for the support and suggestions.

I'm having trouble finding those posts by fixzzle but would really like to read them - do you know how to search by poster's name? I can see there's a huge hole that I will need to fill so H can see a new direction for us. I didn't realize it was a dopamine fix, that's good to know. I am really encouraging him to still go skiing with B and N tomorrow - I know the physical activity will help as will seeing that he can have fun doing things with people OTHER than OW. He seems to have almost forgotten that.

An update from last night... H did get home - late but not extremely late and he left his cell phone on, "So you could reach me and not worry." He wanted very much to talk when he got here. I told him I was sorry the MC made him feel so bad and he said I misunderstood - she didn't make him feel bad, just made him think. She convinced him that getting OW out of his life was the "honorable" thing to do and that he's an honorable man. I thought that was a little bit strange. Clearly, she's better at dealing with this stuff than I am but I just found it a surprising way to approach it. He said he talked to OW a little bit and told her "we need to stop hanging around together so much" and then told me, "I shouldn't have said 'so much,' it made her think we'll still be friends. She wants to find a happy medium but I know there isn't one, I need her out of my life."

He said "Maybe we shouldn't talk about this but I wanted you to know, I don't agree with you and the MC that she's manipulative. I really don't. It doesn't matter anymore but I just wanted you to know that." I said I knew he didn't think so. He also said "This wasn't our only problem, you know that right?" and I said absolutely yes, I knew we had a lot more to talk about. I told him I hoped the MC didn't give him the impression that I made it all about the OW and he said she didn't. They talked about other things - the only other one he mentioned to me was that she asked him how long he thought he'd live. I wonder if she's fishing to see if he might be in MLC? or suicidal thoughts? He told her "maybe late 70s, early 80s" so I took that as a good sign.

Then he said "We have so much more to talk about. I just don't want to hurt you, that's all." So it sounds like he's still on the fence but leaning towards getting out but trying not to hurt me in the process. I didn't push the issue AT ALL but hope my DB efforts before our next session can help.

He said the MC actually tried to cancel next week's appointment because she thought we didn't need her anymore. WHAT?!? I was really upset by that. He convinced her we should still meet. Is she just not seeing the deeper issues we have, or is she trying to get him on the side of fighting to save our M or something? I plan to ask her next week (if I can resist the urge to call today and ask).

The rest of what he said was so tremendously sad. He said "I just have to learn to accept that this is it - this is the best my life will ever get and this is the best person I will ever be." (but it was clear from his tone that this "best" was very bad). Then he said he wanted to call in sick today so he didn't have to see her. I said that was a good idea if he needed the time to himself and then he added "sick of living."

Man oh man... I stayed calm, I didn't freak out, I said I was sorry he was feeling so low. I asked him to believe in the power and potential of change. He grabbed my hand and said he'd try but he didn't think it was possible. I also told him he's a very good man, I know it, his friends and family know it, and he will see it again soon. He said thanks for that and sounded sincere.

Neither of us got much sleep at all but he did go to work after all.

Anyone have suggestions for what to do next?

I will definitely continue the 180s and surprises, those have been very positive.

Any other ideas? What action can I take to back up my words that he's a good man? Show him that we really can be something more and better? I feel it but I need to show it, too.

[NikB]

One last quick post, promise!

Ellie - I was thinking more about the dopamine "fix" you mentioned and I wonder if he's got low dopamine levels to begin with. He had a pretty nasty drug problem all through high school and his early 20's (had kicked it a few years before I met him, but his main drug was cocaine which I know raises dopamine). He tends to really be a thrill seeker too - racing cars, for example. He always has to be doing something new and he is really commited to whatever hobby he's doing at the time.

Hm. I'm not sure what it means if his dopamine levels ARE naturally low, but maybe it's helpful info to look for ways to raise it naturally too. I'll have to do some web searching.

[kml]

Well, that's interesting, Nikki, because I know there are studies on the brains of people in the throes of first infatuation that show their brain scans look like those of people on cocaine! (I think Dr. Amen mentions this in one of his books.)

So - all the more reason you need to help your H see that his life can have change and excitement WITH you.

I read somewhere once that the best dating activities for falling in love were ones that get your adrenaline flowing - like riding a rollercoaster or seeing a scary movie.

One thing my H and I did that seemed to help him - we started a "new" relationship. Called each other by different names, talked about our "former" spouses (that is, the people we were in our marriage before the crisis), pretended we were a "new" couple. Seems silly, but my H seemed to get a lot of comfort from it.
Ellie

[inspiredjulie]

Hi Nikki-

Wow, lot's of progress here. The main thing is to remember that OW was only one part of the pic. Keep doing the DBing and then H will see you're the one he wants. It will be normal for H to go thru a depression at the cut off of their relationship. Don't take that personally. As kml says, it's a brain thing also. So keep doing your DBIng and detach enough to not take his moods and feelings personally. You have issues to work out still, but rome wasn't built in a day. Slow and steady wins the race, girl. Not trying to be a wet blanket, b/c this all sounds pretty wonderful. Just want to remind you how hard you've worked and to stay focused on the principles that got you here. Julie

[S.T. _I Made It!]

But you’re right that it’s very out of character, and not in a good way, for me to act nasty to her. I can’t talk to her about it – she would almost certainly twist anything I said and use it against me or to draw H closer.

---

I wonder what 180 you could do on her??? My thought is that no one has ever REALLY talked to her about it, but instead have FOUGHT about it. I would wonder asking her, I would like to know what you think is acceptable to behave around a married man? If you were married, would it be acceptable for you for your H to have a woman do the same things? Do you feel uncomfortable around their wives? What do you think is the main reason for you not having any female friends?

I wonder what would happen if you asked your husband to join you in trying to "counsel" her to find out what the H*ll" is wrong with her. haha. Just a thought.

The more I think about it, I will ‘compete’ and definitely take the suggestion from the MC to really be physically close to my H when she’s around. Flirt with him, compliment him, be right there instead of hanging back watching the two of them act like infatuated high schoolers. I won’t act like she’s my friend because she’s not, BUT I’ll be civil and don’t think I’ll do the nasty looks thing. I just don’t know that I have it in me and you’re right, it lessens my character. I’m better than that.

I think that is all right on. I definitely think you "hanging" and flirting with your H more if she's around is a good idea. Just try to make it sincere and not over doing it, or your H will be thinking your just trying to do it to get at her or something.

I think the ski thing is a good thing. I know it is really hard to try and have faith in your H. My H told me soo many lies, it's hard to believe him now. But I'm trying.
And even though he is sad about her not being there, maybe he'll have a great time with the boys! and forget all about it.

okay, gonna read the rest of your posts, so many since last I checked!

[S.T. _I Made It!]

I agree with everyone too, it sounds like good progress to me.

I would also want to ask MC about wanting to cancel. You are definitely not out of the woods!!!

Yes, my H was extremely depressed after they broke off (for like 1 week if that) But I never knew about that dopamine sp? rush, so that makes me feel better, especially when I've seen the girls stupid naked pic and she looks like a playboy model- yuck. need to get that mental pic outa my head.

Definitely keep the DBing up and all that mysterious stuff going, act like your dying to get your hands on him, etc.

In my opinion, I don't think he's totally thinking he wants out of your R. I think he's in a position right now where he feels stuck (this is so much like where my H was, but his EA was a PA) and thinks things can't get better, but you will show him that it can. It happened to me, and can happen to you too. You'll just need to give it time, it took my H a few months before he believed my changes were real and that our R could be better than it was.

good luck to you.

[NikB]

I read somewhere once that the best dating activities for falling in love were ones that get your adrenaline flowing - like riding a rollercoaster or seeing a scary movie.

Wouldn't you know it, I really dislike both of those things!! I had a panic attack last time I tried to get on a roller coaster, but I might be able to do a scary movie 180 on him!

He offered to take me as a passenger next time he races. It probably won't be til January but I'm sure it will be scary but a GREAT adrenaline-related experience for us to share, if he's still offering at that time.

I think your idea about pretending it's a new relationship is a really good one. I don't think we're quite to that point yet but I will definitely keep this idea in mind!

[NikB]

Julie and Stilltryin – thank you!

Julie, thank you for the reminder. You’re not a wet blanket at all!! You inspire me on a daily basis with your own thread and your posts to mine. I feel like this is the most important time yet to apply my DB’ing techniques. I finally have such a better chance at them really working. I think the hardest thing the next few days will not taking his depression personally. I hope to have time to re-read the book this weekend, I need to brush up big time.

Stilltryin – thanks for catching up!! You make a good point that maybe no one’s ever really talked to the OW about her behavior. I know a few people have tried including my H (probably not the best person to talk to her about it though!). H said that he actually tried to help her by telling her the stuff that he or I saw her do that ticked the women around her off. For example looking the woman up and down disdainfully, complimenting her on her handsome H/BF (in a tone that says "can't believe YOU snagged a guy this hot), and immediately flirting with the H/BF. She actually told him she KNEW she did this and she didn’t care if women liked or respected her (except for me, of course).

I hope he still goes skiing tomorrow with the other friends. I am really upset that he might give skiing up and use me as a reason for it.

I am trying to think what I’d do for a really good friend who was depressed and I don’t know if I’d let them sit around and “mope” or if I’d try to drag/kick them out to do something fun. I THINK he’d probably be happier with the “drag him out” thing – that’s actually what he’s been doing for OW during her separation when she’s really down and what he normally does for his friends that are having a rough time. I started to plan something casual tonight for us to do with friends, but I decided I should wait and see how he’s feeling or if he even comes home. He’s got one good friend who’s amazing at pulling him out of bad moods in a very “guy friendly” way (i.e. go kart racing and take out their aggressions on the track) – I thought about calling him but don’t want to tell him about our situation unless H wants to.

I will keep on working on me, trying to detach, and still try to help H through the tough part. Dang this is a confusing balancing act! I have confidence in him and in us though.

[S.T. _I Made It!]

Boy does she sound like a "you know what", but you know what? I bet she didn't have a very good role model growing up, and she's never been clued in to know how to act as a woman, friend, girlfriend, whatever. So, I still admire you for showing pity on her.

I'm not exactly totally suprised at how she responded to your H when he TOLD her what she did wrong. Sometimes when people are told what they are doing wrong it immediately puts them in the defensive and they don't think rashionally, or take the criticism constructively. That was part of my reason for asking questions so that she would need to think more about herself and not become defensive.

Of course, if it were me, I would be totally scared to confront her like that or in anyway for that matter and I'd probably chicken out.

With regards to his moping... I guess the only thing you can do is try things out, and see if they work or not. Make sure you give the new things time. I think her book said it might take a week or two to really notice a change from our 180s.

Definitely continue to not let his mopyness ruin your days! Keep your spirits up! I have faith about your sitch as well.

[NikB]

Thanks Stilltryin! I agree, I think she had a pretty awful childhood from what I've heard. She hasn't seen her dad since she was in her early teens - her mom took off with her when her dad's friends started molesting her and her dad thought it was funny. Nice. I do hope she finds help somewhere, just not with me or my H.

The funny part about her getting defensive was that she actually ASKED my H to tell her what she was doing. She didn't understand why women seem to hate her instantly, so she asked him. He talked to me and a few other female friends to get our feedback and passed it on to her. When her response was that she didn't care and had no respect for women anyway my first thought was "Well geez, you had your answer all along. They can see you don't like or respect them and aren't as dumb as you thought."

Friday night was a surprise. I expected "mopey" and instead got defiant and angry. H got home kind of late and said "I'm going out tonight." We usually go out together Friday night but I knew this weekend would be different - I said OK and asked what his plans were - "Guys night out." I just said to have fun and he added almost like he WANTED me to get mad that they were going to a strip club. Umm..ok. I'm not one who's bothered by him going to those places once in awhile so I said "Cool, have fun." He acted like he really wanted me to get mad about it. Maybe I shouldn't have asked what his plans were - I'm not sure about that part. I know he needs space but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask in a calm and nice way if he has plans - I'm really just asking "Do we have plans together or are you doing something else tonight?" I think it's only fair to let each other know general plans so we can figure out what times we'll be doing stuff together or separately. Any thoughts on that??

After all that he ended up going to a friend's house instead - the same one I mentioned that I wanted to call because he's so good at getting H out of bad moods. Before he left, H made me a fire in the fireplace and chopped a bunch of extra wood - "so that you and the dog can be warm while you read or watched a movie or whatever." I have no idea what that was about but it was really nice!! I fell asleep on the couch - he ended up coming home fairly early and actually fell asleep on the floor near the fireplace.

In an episode of really bad timing, my mom and I went to see the Trans Siberian Orchestra last night. H thought his friend would be here late working on cars so he didn't make other plans, and the friend ended up leaving right when I did. Having fun and getting out with people is really really important to H on Friday and Saturday nights so here we are on the first Saturday without OW and he's suddenly alone with no plans and it's pretty late to call anyone. Ugh.

But I'm proud of him. The easy thing would've been to say "forget it, one last night with OW won't hurt" and he didn't. He called up our neighbor friends instead and they went out to dinner then rented a movie.

Oh, and the Trans Siberian Orchestra was AMAZING!!! It's the third year my Mom and I have gone to see them and I really like this new tradition. They are absolutely incredible. I managed to take my mind off all this for awhile. They make it "snow" inside the arena and I just love that part. I smiled and laughed like a little kid when the snow started to fall!! We keep trying to talk H into going because I think he'd love it but no luck so far. I nervously joked with Mom "Well, by this time next year things will probably either be a whole lot worse or a whole lot better.. if they're better maybe we'll all go!"

The ski trip got postponed to today (Sun) and H is out doing that. He was very excited to go and I'm really happy that he did (and OW isn't there).

So I just realized this whole darn update practically is about H and OW and all that... <sigh>. Must learn to detach!!! This is a little bit more about me - it's amazing, I don't even know if he's cut off contact with her yet or is in the process or what, but it is SUCH a relief not to feel that pressure anymore. I don't have to be nice to her, I don't have to pretend to like her, worry she's going to show up here or be invited out with us. I still feel the pressure to make myself a whole new woman, but now I feel like I have a shot at finding the new ME without this tremendous weight on my shoulders.

Today I had all these plans to get stuff done and when I got out of bed I realized something. It's a hair-in-a-ponytail, sweatpants and sweatshirt kind of day for me. If I weren't working so hard to lose weight it'd probably be a pint of Ben & Jerry's day, too. I have been working so hard to DB - to always look great, wear new stuff, do new things, etc. and as all of you know, it gets kind of exhausting. I feel like I never get to just RELAX - even during my "relaxing" time I'm trying so hard to relax in new ways. So I'm taking the opportunity to do absolutely nothing this morning and it feels really good.

I'm off to catch up on other posts - hope that your weekends are all going well!!