The fat lady is warming up....

[OldFool]

RockyMountainGuy:

Thanks. I don't want to make it appear she's the only one that needs work. It's just that at this point, I've demonstrated I'm willing to do the hard work I need to do and now it's her turn to demonstrate she is willing to as well.

I_Wanna_Make_It_Work:

I think you hit the nail on the head without realizing it. She is saying and doing things that may be signs she is interested in reexamining things. But "may" is the operative word. There are equally good explanations for her statements and actions that have nothing to do with the M or R.

For example, she is still going to counseling. I think this is a good sign, but that doesn't mean it is. She may be going because she isn't as ready to give up as she thought. She may be going because she's recognized she has problems and wants to work on them (this could go either way...as a step toward reconciling or as a way to improve the prospects of a successful R with the OM). She may be going because she truly hopes that "we can part as friends" as she has stated. She may be going in the hope she can absolve herself of guilt. She may be going because she doesn't want to be the one that "bailed out of counseling".

My point is that as of right now, I have nothing concrete with which to work...only suppositions, guesses, and hopes. DR says, "You need to stay interested, but cool, until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse's renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold."

If that's true, I have nothing upon which to be "absolutely convinced" nor has my WAW directly said or exhibited anything to leave me with a reason to believe she has a "renewed interest in saving [our] marriage". She has not asked to date or to talk about the R, has not indicated she wants to postpone or abandon the D, and has not stated an interest in working on the M or possible future reconciliation.

In light of that, I don't see any other course of action than the LRT. In the context of "keep doing what works", I see no reason to do otherwise. The downward spiral has stopped (which is good) and I think there are some signs that *may* be positive. But I don't think it's enough yet and I've learned enough patience through all this to let things go a bit.

There's also one other thing that has left me where I am. Right now I don't want my WAW back. She's got enough problems that remain unaddressed (let alone unresolved) that I have no interest in diving back in...provided she even wanted to.

While in the early days, I'd have been happy to have her come back...if for no other reason than to give me an opportunity to reject *her* (very mature, huh?), I haven't felt that way for some time now. I have no interest in encouraging the R at this point because I don't know that we share the same life values and principles anymore. If we don't, then we can't be together and her decision to work on the M would only force me to put her through the pain she caused me (and as cruel as she has been to me, I have no interest in doing that to her).

So right now my goal is to be as neutral as possible. I am not encouraging the M *or* the D. I am trying to leave the door open to the possibility of reconcilation without leaving the impression I am willing to accept it right now. My desire is that we not make any move...one way or the other...until we've both worked through some issues, had some serious discussions about what we want and expect, and made sure we're both at a place where we could reasonably expect a successful reconciliation.

Having rattled through all that, I guess the short answer to your question is, "No, I do not want to be more encouraging at this point".

[I_Wanna_Make_It_Work]

OF - But I agree. I do not want my wife back if we are going to go through the same old same - old again. (To wit, the A). I don't want my old M back. It wasn't bad, but it was only "good enough" - not great. That's no longer acceptable to me.

But I'm approaching it differently, and I was trying to figure out why we took different paths.

My approach has always been - let her WANT to reconcile, and if/when she does, then we can try to tackle the other issues. If we can resolve the other issues, then we'll give it a go under a set of conditions we can agree to (MC, change of schedules, etc). But your approach seems to be to want her to tackle the issues first, then if her way of handling those issues is acceptable to you, you'd try to reconcile. I think you are expecting too much from her. She can't pass your test, because she doesn't know/doesn't realize/understand/doesn't remember the importance - or maybe even isn't sure on how to answer the concerns. Especially if you're not talking to her (because of LRT). I just think your approach leaves her too many decisions to make with no sense of priority.

For my W - she knows all she has to do is say she wants to reconcile and we can try to work out the terms.

Your W may or may not know what to do. May or may not remember all the things you'e discussed in the past. May or may not have even been listening (considering the A).

It's just an opinion - but I'm curious as to why you are leaning this way.

[OldFool]

Thanks for the comments. Good, fair, and thought-provoking questions. There are two things that I think make our approaches different.

1. Counseling. Without it, I think I'd see things differently. Without it, I think you'd be correct about the fact she wouldn't have enough information. But in my case, she has a guide to help her look at the issues and address them. That means I not only don't have to...I probably shouldn't. She could get it from me, but if it's available via an unbiased third party, I think that's better and she's more likely to accept it (if I said it, she'd figure there's an agenda).

2. There's a difference between strategic and tactical differences. My concern is the strategic and by stragetic, I mean fundamental differences such as:

A. Spirituality. She grew shallow, avoiding spiritual discussions and going to church not to participate or for the sermon, but to see and be seen. And that's not even talking about the PA, its length, or the statements she made with regard to it. I'm into meaningful sermons, doing the right thing (even if it doesn't feel good), and studying. Not hard to see a disconnect there.

B. Happiness. She looks for happiness outside herself in things and people. She is desperate to have others "like" her (even me...which is hard to fathom given what she's done to me). She also looks to things (new clothes, new cars, etc.) for happiness. Looking back, I think when she married me, she thought my role was as "Cruise Director" for her life. She is more interested in getting what she wants. I'm more interested in the simple life, wanting what I have, and focusing on appreciating the blessings of my life, not on the things I think are missing. Again, kind of a disconnect.

C. Character. She views me (as she has stated in the past) as "too principled" and "a better person than [she] is". She has said this not out of respect, but out of disdain. Another big disconnect.

D. Selfishness. Ms require sacrifice on the part of both people. I sacrificed things of my own accord in order to strengthen the M and never resented my W for them. She sacrified things because she thought she had to and then spent the subsequent years resenting me.

E. Expectations. I recognize that I'll never find someone that is perfect for me. There will be things I don't like about every woman I may meet and there were things I didn't like about my WAW. Because I didn't expect perfection, I didn't feel cheated when my W wasn't and, thus, never looked outside the M. My WAW is under the impression that you can have it all. That it's possible to find a person who's a party animal but also responsible, that spends money freely but is also financially sound, that does the right thing most of the time, but not when you don't want to. If she holds on to this, I will never be able to meet the standard (nor will anyone else) and my M will constantly be at risk.

These aren't things you "work on" or "fix" as a couple. These are personal issues and values. My WAW wasn't always this way (or at least I didn't think so). But that's the point to not encouraging anything right now. She needs to decide if the kind of person she is right now is what she wants to be in the future. If it is, then we have such fundamental differences, a M would be nothing but torture for us both. If this is a kind of mid-life-crisis detour, then there may be a future for us. What I'm waiting for at this point is progress on this front.

If, for the sake of argument, it is a detour and she takes a look at her life in the context of counseling and decides she wants to get back to her roots, then that changes everything. At that point, we can start talking about the tactical stuff like how I can be more emotionally connected, how we can meet our sexual needs better, how we can communicate issues better, how she can keep her work in context, how often we need to have a "date night", how we deal with the PA/OM, or what have you.

This is the part I think you're referring to. I don't disagree with your comments, but I think I may be a step further down than you at this point.

[I_Wanna_Make_It_Work]

OK - OF. I think your post does explain alot. Most of your points, I agree with. They are "personal" things your W has to fix. I just fear you'll be too focused on getting the items in your list taken care of, that you might miss an opportunity - a work-around, if you will - that would still bring you to the same end. Leaing the door cracked is good - as long as she knows what your expectations are and it's not just trial and error for her at this point. I'm guessing your prerequisites are discussed in MC.

[OldFool]

Here's another way to look at it. My WAW has said she doesn't want to be with me, moved out, and filed for D. Because of the PA, I have Biblical grounds to split. So as far as I'm concerned, I'm single (at least in terms of evaluating the situation). As a result, when I look at the M, I'm looking at whether or not I would want to be married to my W.

One makes that determination based on a variety of factors that, generally, include such things as "Is my W is the kind of person I want to spend the rest of my life with?", "Does she share the same values as I do?", and "Do we share the same goals?" These are the same kinds of questions any single person would be asking when contemplating marrying someone.

In my case, I know that right now the answer to all three is no and, thus, the answer to the most important question is also no. I don't believe there is any "work-around" for this and, thus, I am not concerned with "tak[ing] care of" or "fix[ing]" anything. My interest isn't in fundamentally changing my WAW nor do I believe she should.

Instead, I seek only to know who she is. I know the person she once presented herself to be (this might have been really her...or it might have been a "mask") and I know who she is right now. The key question is this, which one is she *really*? I believe we must both know the answer to this fundamental question before anything else can be effectively accomplished.

She is not aware of my "expectations" nor have we discussed them in joint counseling. This is for two reasons. First, they are not expectations. I do not expect my WAW to share my values or be someone she is not. This would be cruel (and impossible to sustain anyway). Second, I don't believe she has worked through enough of her personal issues to know for sure who she is yet (which would make such a discussion pointless).

It's kind of hard to explain this without sounding like all I'm concerned about are "her problems". But that's not my point. The short version is simply that before we make the decision as to what to do next, I think we ought to know who we are and what we want. Without that basic foundation how can anything else be built?

[tigerleland]

Any new updates?

[OldFool]

There are no updates at this point. Our last joint counseling session was a month ago (the week before Christmas). We were scheduled for earlier in the month, but my WAW cancelled. I believe the current plan is to do a joint session next week.

In the meantime, we have individual sessions this week. On Friday, she left a gift for me at the house. She also sent a card that ended with, "I hope we can talk soon". I called her and asked if there was something she felt she needed to talk about given her note. She said yes, but wouldn't go into detail and said she didn't have time to talk as she was just sitting down to dinner.

Hard to say what that means so I guess I just wait (again). If she's wanting to talk, I'd guess it either has something to do with taxes or it's going to be about concluding the D or abandoning it. However, I'm just speculating. I'm sure whatever it is it'll be interesting.

[alamogirl]

Hey OldFool,

Well, here's an update: My lawyer countered my H's lawyer, and now, my H's lawyer has countered (again).

When I first went to see my lawyer, I told him that I didn't think it was fair that my H was going to get 50% of my retirement and 401K since he's the one who left and never considered reconciliation. He agreed, so he sent my H's lawyer a questionnaire that my H has to answer and sign under oath. One of the questions is "Have you ever had any kind of sexual relations with someone other than your spouse in the course of your marriage?" My lawyer said that if it turns out my H had an affair or is having an affair, then chances are, my lawyer can fight so that my H only receives a portion of my earnings. Texas is a no-fault and community property state. I was surprised to hear that I could petition to question my H's fidelity.

In doing that, my H's lawyer countered and is asking the same information from me. BUT, he also is requesting that I provide spousal support, and he's also asking that I submit my college transcripts .

I was shocked at my husband's request! The only reason I requested that he answer the infidelity questions under oath is because he has never admitted to having someone else. He left and never looked back. In the meantime, I was still helping him out with some financial situations, such as paying his car insurance and medical insurance. Call me stupid but I really thought we were going to work through this.

I still would love it if my H came to his senses, and I pray that someday, he will.

I'm keeping you in my prayers and hope that your wife will realize what a good man you are. I'm also rooting for your friend who has been corresponding with you on these boards. I can't remember his nic as I type this .

All my best,
alamogirl

[OldFool]

Good to hear from you! Sorry things are a little rough right now. But don't let it get you down. Just answer any questions that come along honestly and completely. The truth is your friend far more than it is your H's. Also remember that, by design, attorneys are natually combative and agressive. Don't attribute all of that to your H. While, ultimately, he is in control, there's nothing like a lawyer egging you on (so just keep that in the back of your mind).

My WAW postponed our joint session again, essentially stating that she didn't feel she was ready for it. So another week passes without change. I'll post something in the next couple weeks, assuming we've had some kind of joint session.

Peace and wisdom to you.

[tigerleland]

Hope all is well.