The fat lady is warming up....

[OldFool]

alamogirl:

Well, the short answer to your question is, "I think you made a mistake".

I don't know the motive for your H's call (guilt, holiday sadness, missing your voice...who knows), but it was an opportunity to put the LRT and DBing into practice. IMHO, I think you should have left it alone and you would have been better off doing so. He did not ask for a response from you, did not ask a question, and did not create a situation in which you *had* to call him back.

The LRT accomplishes two things. First, it gets you away from your WAS so they can focus on what they've done, the problems in the M, and their role in the disintegration of the R instead of focusing on you. Second, it gets you away from your WAS so you can focus on your life a bit and disengage long enough to look at things from a more objective standpoint.

This was a good opportunity for both that you appear to have completely missed. While it is legitimate to wonder what it was all about, right now that is something for these boards or a counselor...*not* your WAH. I think you would have been far better served by letting your H contemplate his thoughts without interference and to recognize for yourself the fact he is, in some small way, missing you and noticing you haven't contacted him recently. I think most here would agree that this was a positive development.

Still, a missed opportunity isn't terrible, but bringing up your letter was. Forgive me for saying this, but did you temporarily lose your mind? Demanding an acknowledgement (and that *is* what you were doing) to your letter only confirmed what your H was already thinking as a result of the letter itself...namely that you're demanding!

By presenting him with this challenge, you took the spotlight off his missing you (or whatever it was that prompted his action) and put it squarely back on you and how you are demanding (as he sees it). I can't believe this is what you were hoping to accomplish.

You said:
"I was hoping to discuss our situation further."

Given where your sitch is right now, this should be the *last* thing on your to do list. Discussing your sitch, R, M, or any related topic is not going to be productive or get you closer to saving anything at this point.

You said:
"Since then, I've really been PO'd! Now, he's toying with my emotions. How dare he tell me that he's going to call, and he doesn't!

I don't know if your H is effectively toying with your emotions, but I'd bet that even if what he's doing qualifies as toying, it's not necessarily malicious (and you have no evidence that it is). He contacted you, you called him back, made him uncomfortable, and challenged him. He didn't want more of that so he made an excuse to end the call and didn't call back. I don't think that response is too difficult to understand.

You said:
"At first, I didn't think he had someone else, but I think he does now."

You may be right. A WAS often (but not always) has something going on with someone else. However, I don't see anything in what you related that would lead me to believe this to any greater or lesser extent now than a couple weeks ago. What I'm trying to say is that if you didn't believe this to be the case then, I don't think you have any clearer evidence now to support a change in that belief.

This is the place to vent your frustration and anger. But I fear that it is coming out in what few exchanges you do have with your WAH. That doesn't mean you don't deserve to be angry, hurt, bitter, etc. But if you want to make progress, you're going to have to come to terms with these emotions.

Please note that your feelings are valid and I'm not suggesting you sweep them under the rug for eternity. But there is a better time and context to address them and it sounds like you need to be in a better place yourself before you attempt to do so. I hope you will continue to disengage from your H and recommit to the LRT. I believe it is your best hope.

OK, let me crawl down from my soapbox. I'm sorry you're feeling bad and hope the coming days are better for you. As for my sitch, I'll post a separate item.

[alamogirl]

Hey OldFool,

See, that's why I seek your advice. You see things so much more clearer than me.

And yes, I think I did temporarily lose my mind . I just can't get over the fact that the man I loved and trusted with my life left. I tend to confuse my WAH with the man I lived with for 12 years. You see, I could reason with him, but this person that he has become is so different, so selfish, so unlike him. I can't reason with him, and I hate it .

Anyway, I've decided to retain the lawyer I spoke with on Wednesday.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write back. I know you have your own issues to deal with, so I really appreciate it .

All my best,
alamogirl

[OldFool]

I hear you. As for the backslide, a little one won't kill you. Learn from it and then turn it into an opportunity. The next time you have an interaction with your H, use your mistakes as a platform for showing how you've grown.

For example, apologize for the last exchange, tell him you wrote your letter to share your thoughts and feelings with him and that you'd hoped he would do so in return. Tell him when he didn't respond in kind you felt hurt, but that you realize expecting him to react in some preconceived way was unreasonable and you are not proud of how you reacted.

You'll have to swallow hard to get it out, but it does you no harm and proves that you are capable of being painfully objective about your own shortcomings (I'm sure he's already aware of your ability to be objective about his).

It's not a miracle cure, but it's a baby step in the right direction. I'm sending best wishes your way. Patience and wisdom to you.

[OldFool]

faithful:

Wow. I hardly know what to say. I am so sorry about your sitch. I think you're doing the best you can under the circumstances and, as you say, you can take some comfort in the fact that at least it is all out in the open now (which will make it easier for you to deal with than the denial and deceit).

Apart from abuse (physical, emotional, substance), sexual orientation is the only other thing I can think of that makes saving a marriage nearly impossible. As a result, I think you are wise to begin preparing yourself for its inevitable demise. That doesn't mean, however, that there is absolutely no hope. If your WAW's "impulses" are being driven by unaddressed issues from her childhood, then if she chooses to address those issues, her interest in women may prove to be an adaptation or coping mechanism rather than a lifelong change. However, it is just as likely this will not be the case. The best you can probably do at this point is to place it all in God's hands and maintain a civil relationship (which it sounds like you've already done) at this point.

I can understand if you feel it's time to move on from this community. But you may find you still need some support. If so, I'd encourage you to start a thread in the "Surviving the Big D" section. If you decide to do so, let me know. I'd like to keep up with how you're doing.

God bless you. Strength and healing to you.

[OldFool]

Well, I guess it's time for an update. So here goes.

My WAW and I continue to go to joint and individual counseling. She has not contradicted her statement that she doesn't want to reconcile. She has not stopped the D. In fact, she hasn't done much of anything. Still, there have been some positive developments (or perhaps everything else that happened before was so bad that even doing nothing looks positive). So here they are:

1. WAW continues to request joint counseling sessions.
2. WAW continues to attend individual sessions for herself.
3. WAW has not pushed the D further or talked about it (90-day min. waiting period expires in one week, D dismissed by default if no court date set by mid-April).
4. WAW continues to be curious about me and my activities.
5. WAW continues to talk to and question others about me.
6. WAW will not discuss selling property (which will have to happen before D is final).
7. WAW has admitted that "Christmas was hard on her".
8. WAW has admitted she "cried all the way home" after we divided up the last of our stuff in mid-October.
9. WAW has stated she "may have made some really bad decisions this summer" (apparently referring to the PA).
10. WAW has requested additional individual counseling sessions to "work on some of [her] issues".
11. WAW has not begun using her maiden name (stationery, VM greetings, etc.) though she has requested the court to reinstate it in the D.
12. WAW left small Christmas gift and card.
13. WAW continues to initiate regular e-mail contact.
14. WAW has extended an invitation to talk on three occasions.
15. WAW appears to still be attending church (at least occasionally).
16. WAW asked if I would be willing to do our taxes for 2006 (as married filing jointly).

In addition, we had our first conversation outside of joint counseling the other night. It was snowing here, and I felt impressed to call her (she always loved the snow...what little we get). I've been pretty dark and felt that if I shut off all communication, I'd risk making the path home too difficult.

She didn't answer and I left a short message to the effect of, "I hope you're someplace you can see the snow or get out in it. It's beautiful. I'm going for a walk in it and then off to the store. Goodnight."

I did go for a walk and then headed to the grocery store. She called as I drove into the parking lot. Normally I would let it go to VM, but I answered. She asked how the roads were, if I'd gone for a walk, and what I was doing. Exchanged brief chit-chat. I said I was at the store now. She said, "It's sad we have to shop alone now". I replied, "Yeah, well, I'm in the parking lot so I'd better go stock up on some groceries. Have fun in the snow. Goodnight."

Kept it short, upbeat (well, maybe not upbeat...but positive), and didn't let her drag me into the sad stuff. No R, no M, no ILY, no IMY, no checking up, no questions at all. So, not too bad. Didn't throw the door wide, but left it open a crack.

[I_Wanna_Make_It_Work]

OF - I worried in the past that you not only shut the door, but latched it shut. I think you did the right thing. You've given her a little hope (if she wanted it).

Some of the baby steps and your W's feeling you listed were the same issues my W brought up - so it is textbook. I think you're doing the right thing by at least keeping the door cracked. And though you may of not previously paved the road home - I think you'e at least cleared the brush away.

[OldFool]

I've never closed the door, but I'm not willing to accept just any kind of reconciliation. My WAW is going to have to do a little paving of her own (which doesn't mean I don't have to do my share) and if she's not capable of that, then there's not much to save. You can't repair a M (at least for the long haul) with one party that can't/won't do any of the work.

You can make it look like it's working if one party does all the heavy lifting, but it won't last. I can attest to that personally. Before my W split, I was doing most of the heavy lifting emotionally and in support of my W (and had warned her several times the "well is running dry"), but didn't get anything back. When I couldn't hold up everything by myself any longer and gave up, she just dropped out.

I'm not doing that again!! She'll have to prove her ability and willingness to do the hard work if we're going to put anything together. She's already demonstrated her ability to cut and run when the going gets tough.

[flip]

I agree. It was similar in my sitch. When I started putting my H under pressure to pull his weight in our R, that's when he bailed for the newness and excitement of the OW.
As far as I'm aware he's learnt nothing at all from this whole sitch. He still thinks what he did was prefectly normal and ok.

[I_Wanna_Make_It_Work]

OF - I'm hoping the D will whither on the vine for you. I'm just not certain why you're still so deep into LRT if she is showing some signs. I'd think you would want to be more encouraging.

[RMG77739]

I've never closed the door, but I'm not willing to accept just any kind of reconciliation. My WAW is going to have to do a little paving of her own (which doesn't mean I don't have to do my share) and if she's not capable of that, then there's not much to save. You can't repair a M (at least for the long haul) with one party that can't/won't do any of the work.

You can make it look like it's working if one party does all the heavy lifting, but it won't last. I can attest to that personally. Before my W split, I was doing most of the heavy lifting emotionally and in support of my W (and had warned her several times the "well is running dry"), but didn't get anything back. When I couldn't hold up everything by myself any longer and gave up, she just dropped out.

I'm not doing that again!! She'll have to prove her ability and willingness to do the hard work if we're going to put anything together. She's already demonstrated her ability to cut and run when the going gets tough.

OF,

I agree. You need to set the expectations. People have asked me "What if WAW changes her mind about the D AND wants to reconcile?" I always say that is all well and good. HOWEVER, she will have to do several things including the following:

1.Go to at least six SBT sessions to work on M issues.
2.Go to church weekly with me.
3.Go to Marriage Mentors at church with me.
4.Improve her communication skills.

Of course, I would have several things to work on as well. I am willing to roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty.

However, she would not just waltz in an continue the M. That simply would not work. She NEEDS to work on her issues.

RMG