It's time to start dating again....

[Laney]

Z,

You really have an interesting take on this. It makes sense. Don't think I would have ever come to this conclusion on my own.

It's so true how stuck on that rule the LS becomes. Especially in our sit where the WAS is still in contact w/the OP and there's not much chance they will stop any time soon. It's true how this rule contradicts that we cannot demand, we cannot insist. We are told not to pursue, to leave them alone. I've struggled hard with this. I agree that we can't make the choice for them. I'm struggling with the "none of my business" Not that I disagree with it, but it's a hard concept for me to grasp. (Partly because I'm so damn nosey and tend to make things my buisness ) But really this is hard for me.

Since I can’t deny that she the right to make her own choices, I have no choice than to accept that she can choose whatever she wants, whether I like that choice or not. I don’t like that she continues to have contact with OM, I would prefer she didn’t have contact with him, bit I accept that it’s none of my business. The only “right” I have is that of a having a preference, and I have a right to let her know what that preference is. She, then, has the right to choose to respect my preference, or to respect hers. It really comes down to respect. And who’s to say which respect should take preference ---- Respect for Spouse, or respect for Self.

I tend to lean towards what I think is the general public's view on this. I really feel this is where they should have respect for the spouse and the marraige. Especially if they do in fact want to work towards rebuilding like both your W and my H have indicated.

This is the way I look at if everyone knew about the affair. The family, the sport friends, family friends, ect. Do you think our spouses would really continue their "friendship" or "contact" with the OP? If they were being scrutinized don't you think they would choose to respect us and the marriage? That's where I have a problem I feel like they are being selfish in this situation. This is also where I struggle with MY choices. Do I want to chose to accept my H's choice? I just don't know sometimes. I guess what keeps me hanging on right now it this part of what you said:

I believe that eventually, when the WS finally reaches a point where they are back into the marriage, and they can once again begin to want to give and nurture the marriage, they will see the pain and harm the R with the OP is and has caused to the LS, and out of respect for that R will finally end contact with OP. That R will run its course.

But what will it take for them to get to this point, and will they ever? How patient and good and understanding can we be until they get there? How long do we HOPE for this?

I do like your thoughts on this though. You are on to something. I'm trying to sort it all out in my head.

Thanks for your thoughts!
Laney

P.S. Please excuse my terrible spelling and grammer, I have no spell check!

[lostlove]

z

sounds like you are very in touch with your feelings on this subject. you hit many important aspects of what relationships are really all about. choice and respect. I do not see it as respect for the was to "pretend" to be working on the m while keeping in contact with the op. what I said to h, when I discovered he was still "talking" to ow after "claiming" to work on the r, is how would you feel if while we are supposedly working on our r, I am out with other men???? that he didn't like.
hanging on to op shows (in my eyes) that they still do not take the r seriously, and are just testing the waters with us.
I believe my h is still talking to ow, at least as of last week he was. if i find that he is still talking to her, then i will not take his stated commitment to our marriage seriously. the op can't exist if we are to have a whole healthy marriage, the op will always be getting or giving something to our spouse that takes away from our relationship.
yes it is their "choice" whether or not to respect our feelings on the issue, but is it really respecting our feelings or respecting the marriage?
LL

[hoping]

Hi, Z
Have been reading your posts, I too have a h who is in constant contact with this "ow". If I ahve already posted here, or if you have read my thread, I have no proof of pa, but any dummy can see that it is ea. They work together, lunch together, bowl on team together, we go over to her house, she comes here. I seem to be the one who feels it is the problem in our M. In c h does not see it as a issue, says they are very good friends, and he does not understand why I don't think the opposite sex can't just be friends.
I have come to a peace the last few months, and I either except this friendship, or I pack his bags for him because I know that is what would happen. Maybe reality is I don't really want to lose all I have, are they really having the full blown "A". I hope not, and have to trust what he told me many months ago, but I kept bringing it all up, and ultimately that is why I am here. As I have relaxed and trusted him more, accept that this is his friend, he is slowly coming back to our m. I have not asked if he really wants to work on it, or if he still feels like he wants to leave sometimes, because he is still here, and the signs tell he must. So, we all ahve to trust our guts, and it may not work for everyone.
Sue

[RMC]

It seems to be an epidemic-these EA with OW/OM. I don't have any proof that my H is still talking with the OW but his actions have been very different lately, and its true when they are in an EA with someone it can' help but take thier focus off really working on the M. Something is taken away. They are torn. They feel as though they love two people and don't want to give up either one. In my case my H had a PA for over 2 yrs with her and then broke it off after I found out. TO my knowledge he has fessed up to only one conversation with her since. He has said he will tell her he cannot talk to her anymore if she calls. DO they have the strength to do that? I believe ONLY if they are REALLY are commited to the M. My H is not acting like he is commited to me. He is not being loving, says he feels trapped, and is distant. WIthout calling him an outright liar and me continually asking him if he is talking to her and him denying it, there is nothing I can do except end it if I can't take it anymore. I'm not ready to do that yet.I still feel he loves me even though he is not really acting like it right now. You just know these things, but the pull of the OP takes so much away from our R. We have two choices. Ride it out and see what happens or move on. Most of us here are choosing to ride it out in part because we have heard so many times these things burn themselves out eventually. In my case it was such a long A. He says now he only thinks of her as a friend-it screams of EA if he is having contact with her. Especially all of his actions.
He's trying to fight it I can tell, so I have to be on guard, but DBing to be more attractive to him than her. He does not want to marry her, so I know I have that as an anvantage-he can just TALK to her and she listens. Brother, I could find someone to go out and talk to and they would listen too.

ITs alot of BS if you ask me and I don't like having to play this game but I am still waiting for him to come back to me-the way he used to be. Then it will all be worth it. I'm banking on that rigth now-its what keeps me going. Racahel

[KAW]

Since I can’t deny that she the right to make her own choices, I have no choice than to accept that she can choose whatever she wants, whether I like that choice or not. I don’t like that she continues to have contact with OM, I would prefer she didn’t have contact with him, bit I accept that it’s none of my business. The only “right” I have is that of a having a preference, and I have a right to let her know what that preference is.

You also have the "right" to accept whether or not you can live with the choices they make and IMHO is where the difference is between preferences and boundries.

I believe that this concept of expressing “preferences” is somewhat synonymous with “setting boundaries” ... Setting boundaries implies to me “lines in the sand”; closed, private spaces; and an implication of retribution (as in “I need this boundary, and if you don’t obey it, I will have to make other arrangements).

I don't think they are the same. My take is that "setting boundries" is the expression of your level of acceptance to the choices they make. This can take on the meaning of "drawing a line in the sand" if you wish to predetermine the consequences of breaking the boundry. It is also your right to determine what action you will take if their choice to something that you cannot accept and that can be expressed as well. This way they can weigh the expected consequence before making such choices in the future.

In countering my pursuit, my W told me her intention was to get her own apartment, pursue her feelings for OM. I mentioned to her that if she were to continue to make choices leading to that path that she would cross a line where there would be no turning back. That had an impact. She kept going back to that asking where exactly is that line. I finally came to realized I could not accept and expressed that if she left to pursue a future with OM and it didn't work out, and then she decided she shouldn't have walked away from M, it would be too late. From that time on, I still believed that to be true and I think I convinced her of that too.

The only “right” I have is that of a having a preference, and I have a right to let her know what that preference is. She, then, has the right to choose to respect my preference, or to respect hers. It really comes down to respect. And who’s to say which respect should take preference ---- Respect for Spouse, or respect for Self.

As I have said, you also have the right to set the levels of acceptance you will tolerate of how their choices impact you. This is more for oneself in order to keep our self-respect, but expressing it to spouse allows them to decide to what degree should they respect themselves at the expense of respecting their spouse.

[Jamesjohn]

"From the way I read DB and Michele, there is only one rule "If what you are doing is working, do more of it. If what you are not doing is not working, try something else."

I think you pretty much got it there in a nutshell there, my friend!

"Doing something different".

In my pre-DB'ing days, I was seeing a C for a gambling problem I had. Although he wasn't a follower of Michele's specific works, whenever I tried to give him "reasons" for doing the things that I was doing, he would ask me a DB type question...

"Well, JJ. How's that worked for you SO far?"

Well, my answer would be "obviously not so good", since I was there seeing him!

"My evolution as a board reader has been that of starting desparately looking for answers and how to "do it right" to one now where I tend to notice more examples of behaviors that "are not working". And, sadly, I see one of the biggest examples of things not working is when people get too caught up in the "dogma" of DB and other related ideas."

Pretty much the same for me. Heavy on seeing the things that don't work.

I think the hardest part about properly DB'ing is keeping it simple. We see our problems as so overwhelming, that we think the answer has to be a complicated one.

Well, it doesn't have to be. As a matter of fact, we tend to overlook the simple solutions that WILL work.

Usually, by the time we find our way to this board, we've research tons of self-help material, looking for some specific help with our situation. Quite often, by the time we're done, we've been able to put a nice "label" on the way that we are, and the way that our partner is.

That's all fine and dandy, but it never really brings us any closer to solving our problem.

IMHO, the best way to make DB'ing work is to lose the labels, and keep it simple. Learn to be creative in your thinking, and look for solutions in the places you may have overlooked before. Don't complicate the process more than you have to.

Off my soapbox now!

[Zebra]

Laney--

Understand that I wrote this to put down a number of recent thoughts were beginning to just rumble around in my head and were beginning to get confusing. This is definately a set of observations, and for the most part, if I can stick to it, it works for me. It is not alway possible for me to stick to it. Some of this theory is just a little too far out there, just a little to metaphysical for me to follow completely. As I've stated, I'm very much in the middle of this, and lots of my observations are my direct experience. Some are my "blue sky" ideals, and as of yet have not failed me.

I totally agree that respect with what you say about respect. In fact, I believe respect it the absolute key ingredient here, and the thing that is most missing in so many situations I read about on the board. The problem I see on the board, and I've seen in myself in the past is that all too often, we loose perspective on this. Since our WS has disrespected us and the marriage to such a degree as to have an affair, we feel so dissed that we often fail to acknowledge that we also owe respect to them. Just because they have dissed us does not mean our obligation to respect their rights is suspended. I don't mean to say I respect their actions, but I do respect their right to choose those actions. This might sound flakey, but it is the epitome of letting go of the urge to control. Respect the right to choose, if not the choice itself. Often, our situations have become so disfunctional that we fail to notice that what this is all about is respect, or more importantly, lack of respect. Our WS broke the marital convenent because they didn't respect it, and likely because they felt they were not getting the respect they deserved. We are outraged and controlling and clingy and demanding because we now feel so disrespected by them through their actions. We demand respect. Well, so do they. They were felt so disrespected, they left. We feel so disrespected that we demand they change their behavior. We counter the disrespect they show us (through actions they engage in because they have felt disrespected by us) with more disrespect toward them... Lets see, that's 2 counts of disrespect from us, 1 from them. OK the degree of disrespect is terribly out of proportion, but qualitative vs quantitative, logic vs craziness aren't at work here. What is at work is a power struggle, and an escalating spiral of disrespect. We have the power to stop this. We can choose to stop, to let go, and to find something, any single thing that we can respect. Then, I believe, the spiral will begin to deflate. Everything has to start somewhere. I am willing to be the one to start. It is our job to draw them back, because for what ever reason, something we did caused them to run in the first place.

Hope. I did use that word. I struggled with it. At times, I believe that is the most stupid word in the language. Hope so often equates to fantasy. Not a good thing for us. The question of how long do we wait, how long are we patient is a tough one. I've come to believe that with this new outlook I'm developing that hope, or patience, or waiting will be removed from the equation. It is my goal (there is a better word) to make this idea of respecting my W's right to choose my new way of life. I will respect her, and it is my goal to behave in a manner to have her respect for me grow to more than it ever was. It is my goal that I can grow that respect to a point where her contact with OM becomes a total non-issue, or even that she drops it totally out of that respect. But, I don't want her to drop it in deference to me. I don't want her to do it to make me feel better, but to make herself feel better. The other aspect of respect her is that our WS's have been so desparately looking for respect that they have in many cases sacrificed their own self-respect in the course of action they have chose. It is my goal to behave in such a manner that I can help her rebuild her own self-respect as well.

The big thing I'm really getting in touch with is that this is not really about me. It never was. I thought it was, she thought is was. But it was about the lack of respect in her own life.... respect she felt she should have been getting from me that she wasn't, loss of her own self-respect for tolerating what she felt an untolerable situation, respect she then got from the OM, respect she got from the SSW for her "strength" to move on with her life. It's about her. It's about her quest for respect, and much of the respect she's looking for is self-respect. I think she's still looking for self-respect. I hope she finds it. Without self-respect, you can't find happiness. Without finding happiness within, you can't truly be happy. So, maybe ultimately self-respect is the key to happiness within? I just thought of that..... Well, anyway, I plan to begin giving and keep giving her respect. I think I've found my self-respect, and I don't need any from her. I have mine. Now, I'm giving some to her.

Hey, wait a minute, if you replace the work "respect" above with the word "love", the whole essay still works too. I just noticed that this very minute. It's been on my mind, because I'm working on another idea involving that concept. Oh well, I guess I'm just journalling again.

So, with that, I'm going to just post this without editing. This is raw, first draft. Let me know if I am making any sense...

z

KAW and JJ.... Not enough time now..... Later.

[Zebra]

KAW ---

Ok, your turn! Seriously, you've addressed a number of things that are among the more difficult I've been dealing with. It's helps me to refine my thinking to answer.

Your first point is absolutely spot on. I agree. I've stated that we have a choice to accept their right to choose. And, we also have a right to our choices. If we continue to feel disrespect from the WS, and for reasons of maintaining our own level of self-respect we find this the disrespect unacceptable, we can choose to leave the R. It's a step that for many is the ultimate 180, the true LRT, the "Dobson Letter". It is our choice, our power. And, truly, the only way this devices work is if we are at peace in our souls, in our hearts that we can take or leave the R. If the WS stops the disrespect and returns to the R, we will welcome them with open arms, like the prodigal son. If they choose to continue the disrespect toward us, and follow their own choice, we can with open heart, mind and soul leave the R, totally at peace, totally complete. I truely know folks on this board who have done so...

Boundaries, as I truly understand them, are devices to help us preserve our self respect. If you need them, they are certainly valid, and necessary. The most important thing is to preserve your self respect. However, I see boundaries used all too often to control, to demand. To attempt to force the WS to cow to the wishes of the LS. The LS says "My boundary is for you to behave thus". What's that? A boundary like "You will not have any contact with the OP" is a controlling order. A boundary like "I do not want you to call the OP from our home, and I do not want the OP in our home when I'm not here" is a statement of what one needs to help preserve their own self-respect, and at times their sanity. Yes, you are right, my "line in the sand" statement is an extreme example, and falls in the "controlling" category. I mentioned that because that's the way I tend to see "boundaries" used and advocated on the board more often than not. I don't see boundaries are not "offensive" tools designed to punish, or control (though I see them used on the board that way), but rather as "defensive" tools to carve out some "safe" space for ourselves amidst the chaos.

I'm happy that your boundaries have gotten results. I think in some respects, the dynamics of your situation were well suited to your approach. You were able to issue a "wake-up call" and turn the tide before it got out of hand. In my situation, it got way out of hand. I'm struggling to draw her back, and draw my marriage back from the brink. Lawyers were involved, W had "left" emotionally. I was sharing a house with another man's lover. They were literally planning their new life together. It was OVER in her mind, in her heart. Now, she's back to being my W, and he is a casual friend. That's the best I can get for now. So, I suppose it boils down to the truth that each situation is different, and only we know ours best. I just wish I knew mine a bit better....

Have a good weekend folks.....

Later,

z

[lostlove]

z
very difficult thing to deal with when there is an op involved. you make many valid points even in your rough journaling. It is certainly a struggle and yes as you pointed out it is different for each sit.
personally in my sit, since h fell in-love with ow and planned to be with her, her leaving her h for mine. I do not feel comfortable with them continueing contact. now it is up to h to do what is best for him or what is best for the r, if something he has control over (keeping in contact w ow) is hurting me and he continues to do it by choice then that shows me no respect, no honor etc. we are not talking about gee honey i wish you wouldn't watch football, take a nap, go out with the guys, go fishing, leave the seat up, leave dishes in the sink etc, we are talking about doing something that makes me feel very uncomfortable about our r. I do not see how the op has a place in the marriage that can be anything but negative. I understand that it will be difficult for h to sever ties with ow, but is it not difficult for me to let him back into my heart when he told me he had wanted a d and there was no hope for us. I am now rambling as is often the case when I come to the bb.
for me the ow cannot be an occasional friend, aquantance or customer, for me ow is a mistake something that should never have been and should be in the past, if I am to put this past year of hell in the past and move on then h must too. as long as ow is in the pic the past is not yet the past it is still occuring. a constant reminder of what was. LL

[Zebra]

we are talking about doing something that makes me feel very uncomfortable about our r. I do not see how the op has a place in the marriage that can be anything but negative. I understand that it will be difficult for h to sever ties with ow... for me the ow cannot be an occasional friend, aquantance or customer, for me ow is a mistake something that should never have been and should be in the past... as long as ow is in the pic the past is not yet the past it is still occuring...

LL, I couldn't agree with you more. If you think I do from what I've written, I apologize for giving that impression.

However, how do you suggest we best accomplish that end? Do we demand they break contact? Do we tell them to live their lives according to our plans? Do we tell them that "they" are "making" our lives unbearable and it's up to them to change so our lives work? I'm looking for a solution to this problem. With all due respect to you, all you have done here is restate the problem ----

That problem I'm speaking of is: "All the literature and experts state that the WS MUST cut all contact with the OP after an affair to be able to reconcile the marriage. What do you do when the WS refuses to do this?"

What is the solution? How are we, the LS, to cause the WS to get the OP out of their lives? How do we get our spouse to understand that it is not in the marriage's best interest to maintain contact? How are we to make them understand this, and convince them to end that contact. I suggest that pleading, demanding, "forcing", insisting, or whatever other label you wish to place on controlling, disrespectful behavior won't work. It is simply doing more of what hasn't worked. We need to find things that do work.

As in all other cases, we certainly are entitled to let the WS know what we want and/or "need" to have happen regarding their contact with the OP. The OP may not like this, and may see it as pursuit. And, as in all other cases they are likely to keep our needs remain subservient to their own. At that point, we have to understand and accept that we can only control ourselves, and the relationships that WS chooses to maintain are out of our control. We simply have no other choice than to let go of the issue. I do so by acknowledging that those relationships are out of my control, and as such, none of my business. Maybe simply stating that they are our of my control is a better way of phrasing it, but I find the term "none of my business" a bit more likely to catch one's attention. It sure caught my W's. "Out of my control" she doesn't even roll her eyes at. "None of my business" elicited protests that she believes that what she does certainly IS my business, as it effects me. I felt a door cracking open there.

My biggest reason for writing this idea here is I noticed I had gotten to a point that I was "stuck" on this problem. I was unable to move ahead because she would not end contact, and I found myself simply waiting for W to get rid of OM. I was foundering on this notion that W would not cut contact with OM, when all the "literature" and "wisdom" insisted that she must. But, in my situation, this was not happening. I found my progress in getting my marriage back on track was grinding to a halt on this issue. I found that demanding didn't work. I found that accepting felt like giving permission. I learned that it was not about me, and there was really nothing I could do about it but let go and move ahead with making me better, making me a better choice than the OM. As such, it's still a work in progress. And progress is being made at a slightly better pace than before I started using this approach.

z