I never posted to your thread, but have read through all your posts over the last couple weeks because I'm in a similar sitch you were in about a year ago. Reading your posts has give me inspiration to continue Dbing. I'd like to add to KAW's remark about subliminal messages. I know we're not supposed to read into or believe anything for that matter what the aliens say or do, but I do believe their actions and words are results of exactly how they are feeling at the point in time. So, I would chalk up the tennis match with W against OM as a victory and baby step in the right direction. I think you already know that though from your post right after about W telling d not to worry about a stepfather.
Thanks to all for your encouraging words. As I posted on Scott's thread, I'm in a bit of a general funk right now, I feel drifting a bit, but it changes day by day. I've noticed that when I tell W that I'm drifting, and if she's sympathetic/empathetic to my mood, it helps build me back up. It gives some reassurance.... but that's a big "if". She's just as likely to get defensive.
Yesterday in C I had an interesting experience in this regard. Last week I was being a bit pissy in general. I noticed that it was because my impatience with the whole situation was gaining an upper hand (as it does from time to time). I was pissy and reactive as a result. Once I identified what was going on with me, I went to W and told her. I apologized to her for taking out my insecurities on her. I told her that from time to time my patience wore thin, and I get reactive. I said that was my problem, and I was sorry for taking it out on her. She lashed back. She "reacted" to my "impatience" rather than hear my apology. She didn't hear what I was saying, but reacted to what she thought she heard. This put me deeper into my funk. I was getting a "is this worth it???" feeling, because it looked like no matter what, we were going to continue this reactive pattern, and it's just plain exhausting and disheartening. Well, I talked about this in C. It had been eating at me, I was feeling W had turned a bit away, was withdrawing. Turns out W didn't even remember the incident. It was all in my head. It's amazing what we do to ourselves sometimes.
Anyway, the upshot is that I'm learning that it is so important to share your thoughts from time to time, if for no other reason to test the waters to see if this sharing is receptive. The concept of going dark and No OR is a dynamic one. There are not hard and fast rules, and if your situation (as ours has been) has been one of hiding feelings, avoiding conflict, internalizing upset, a perfect 180 might be to simply let your feelings be known (without assiging any blame), and be ready to diffuse a reactive retort if it comes. It does increase intimacy, releave the stress of holding on to concerns that may exist only in your mind....
Scott, wow, you've read all that drivel??? Seriously, I have reread it a couple of times, and I see a progression from floundering around to finding things that work. I hope some of the mistakes I made can help you avoid the same. As I said, your situation does sound a lot like mine was, I can surely relate to so much of what you write. If it helps, if she askes again about the people you talk to, you may share with her that you've met at least one other whose situation is so close. I believe that when the WS learns that the stuff they are going through is not unique to them, but fairly common, it takes some to the pressure off, and allows them to examine themselves more closely. Think about this.... most long term marriages (our parents, grandparents) have undergone and survived at least one major crisis. In the current "pro-divorce" "me centric" "I gotta be happy" world, so many suffer from the dilusion that the marriage is the problem and ignore that it is often problems with self esteem that cause the problems in the marriage. It is so much harder to look within than to blame another... But, when they see that others suffer from the same situation, the fear of being defective, of being so alone is reduced. At least that's something I've come to believe...
Thanks for stopping by my thread and providing me your DB expertise. You truly are a DB master.
I know exactly what you mean about your W not remembering the incident about apologizing for lashing out due to what you think is a growing impatience. This happened to me last night when I apologized to W for judging her last week on how she feels about the Catholic religion and the commandments she violated. (Empathetic listening is definitely an area I need to work on. I'm getting a lot better though.) However, she said that she had forgotten all about the incident. How much easier all this would be if we could only get inside the alien's mind, even for only a day or week, to see, feel, hear what they are thinking, feeling and going through. Oh well, I guess DB is the best alternative.
I just wanted to reemphasize your post for others that are reading. I have to agree with you on your thoughts about the dynamic nature of going dark, no OR talk, pursuit, etc. They are there as guidelines only or suggestions if you will. They are specific techniques that need to be tailored to a specific situation or relationship. These techniques need to be tweaked based on the roots of DB...don't go down cheeseless tunnels...experiment and monitor results...do more of what works and less of what doesn't...180...and the granddaddy concept of them all - PATIENCE.
I need to write. Maybe just journaling again. No real problems, but I want to just put this down here and see if it makes sense to me, or to anyone else…
It seems to me that as I go through this journey, from time to time I’ve had a few epiphanies…. Usually in a manner, and about a topic that I’ve not seen covered in the same manner elsewhere. I arrive at the points from reading books, other’s experiences on the board, and my own experiences. My evolution as a board reader has been that of starting desparately looking for answers and how to “do it right” to one now where I tend to notice more examples of behaviors that “are not working”. And, sadly, I see one of the biggest examples of things not working is when people get too caught up in the “dogma” of DB and other related ideas. Somehow, Michele’s work has gotten fragmented into a list of Rules about how to fix your marriage. From the way I read DB and Michele, there is only one rule…. If what you are doing is working, do more of it. If what you are not doing is not working, try something else.” Oh sure, there are variations of this, and I believe my favorite is “When you are contemplating doing something, first consider how it will serve your goals. If it will bring you closer to them, do it. If it will drive you away, consider something else.”
So, one Rule I can’t seem to get working in my situation is the one that says “to recover from an affair, the WS must completely cut ties with the OP.” As one whose W has stated that she's recommitting to work on the marriage, she's no longer pursuing divorce or leaving, but she continues to have social contact with OM who's "just a friend", I have a big problem with this Rule, in context of as advice to us, the Left Spouse (LS). Exactly how do we use this Rule, exactly how do we implement it??? We are told (correctly, I believe) that we cannot demand, we cannot insist. We are told not to pursue, to leave them alone. My latest epiphany is a result of this working on this dilemma. I believe we as LS are not served at all by hearing, attaching, or dwelling upon this Rule. I believe it is true, and very important, but that it harms our PMA to focus upon it because it is completely out of our hands. It is a choice of another, and one we cannot make. It is the personal business and concern of our WS, and there is nothing we can do about this choice. The way I’ve framed it in my mind and phrased is the this issue of continuing contact between my W and OM is “none of my business”. I’ve told W this, and I’ve told C that this is what I’ve come to believe. I was supported by C (who was amazed at it), and curiously, W protested it. She tried to drag me back into her situation with OM by insisting that is was my business. I said “no, it’s not. I have no choice in the matter, unless it’s a choice to accept that you have the right to make your own choices or to attempt to deny you that right.” Since I can’t deny that she the right to make her own choices, I have no choice than to accept that she can choose whatever she wants, whether I like that choice or not. I don’t like that she continues to have contact with OM, I would prefer she didn’t have contact with him, bit I accept that it’s none of my business. The only “right” I have is that of a having a preference, and I have a right to let her know what that preference is. She, then, has the right to choose to respect my preference, or to respect hers. It really comes down to respect. And who’s to say which respect should take preference ---- Respect for Spouse, or respect for Self. I believe that eventually, when the WS finally reaches a point where they are back into the marriage, and they can once again begin to want to give and nurture the marriage, they will see the pain and harm the R with the OP is and has caused to the LS, and out of respect for that R will finally end contact with OP. That R will run its course. (Since I’m still very much in the midst of this whole thing, I have no way of knowing is this will be true. It is my belief and hope that this will happen…)
I believe that this concept of expressing “preferences” is somewhat synonymous with “setting boundaries”. However, I believe that in the context that “it’s none of my business” what choices the WS makes, I believe “expressing preferences” is a more realistic approach. Setting boundaries implies to me “lines in the sand”; closed, private spaces; and an implication of retribution (as in “I need this boundary, and if you don’t obey it, I will have to make other arrangements). I had an interesting experience the other day in this regard… I wanted to “express my preferences” to W about OM contact. I decided to start the OR with a comment that what stimulated by a question the C had in last session. She wanted to know if we had any problems with setting and keep boundaries… W and I pretty much said we pretty much avoided the subject. So I started this out saying C asked about boundaries, and we should be free enough with each other to make them clear. I asked if there was “boundaries” she had she would like me to know about, to make explicit what was now vaguely implicit, so I didn’t accidentally disrespect her personal space. She acted a bit confused, and taken back. Then she said something that I just thought was wonderful…. “I think we should be working toward tearing down boundaries, rather that putting them up.” I loved that!!!!
So, I haven’t posted in a while, and some folks have asked what I’m up to, how it’s going. Frankly, it’s still going about the same if you choose to measure --- slowly moving ahead. Because of the thing above, together with another few things I’ve stumbled across recently (the concepts that there are really only two underlying human emotions: Love and Fear; and the concept that forgiveness is necessary, the “gift you give yourself”), I’m in a far far better place than I’ve been in a long, long time --- possibly ever. And I think W is noticing that I’m there.
Don't have much time right now, so I'll just throw this one out real quick.
"to recover from an affair, the WS must completely cut ties with the OP."
This was one "rule" that I got real stuck on, and found that in trying to follow it, I couldn't make any progress. So, I gave it up.
I'm one that likes to "bend" some of the rules that aren't working for me, and so I "reframed" it as follows:
"In order for the WS to completely cut ties with the OP, you must begin to recover from the affair."
Until I began to "draw" my wife back into having an exclusive R with me, none of the ultimatums I gave, or boundaries I drew, worked very well.
It wasn't until I began to show her how good her life with me could be, how much she'd be missing if I wasn't around, if there wasn't an "us", that she decided to be rid of him for good.
Is this sorta along your same lines of thoughts, Z?
Last edited by Jamesjohn; 10/10/0208:53 PM.
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
It probably works that way most of the time anyway. I doubt very many people in a PA cut ties period. IT tapers off if the M starts working better. Not fun, but true.ITs like an addiction they have to break. YUCK!
Yes, you get the essence. This is a work in progress, a living work in progress. I'm not just postulating, but living this now. It seems to be working, and W is responding to this level of "respect". I will answer more completely later.... tomorrow, or the weekend.
Seriously, I have reread it a couple of times, and I see a progression from floundering around to finding things that work. I hope some of the mistakes I made can help you avoid the same. As I said, your situation does sound a lot like mine was, I can surely relate to so much of what you write. If it helps, if she askes again about the people you talk to, you may share with her that you've met at least one other whose situation is so close. I believe that when the WS learns that the stuff they are going through is not unique to them, but fairly common, it takes some to the pressure off, and allows them to examine themselves more closely. Think about this.... most long term marriages (our parents, grandparents) have undergone and survived at least one major crisis. In the current "pro-divorce" "me centric" "I gotta be happy" world, so many suffer from the dilusion that the marriage is the problem and ignore that it is often problems with self esteem that cause the problems in the marriage. It is so much harder to look within than to blame another... But, when they see that others suffer from the same situation, the fear of being defective, of being so alone is reduced. At least that's something I've come to believe...