I've been thinking about your sich Cobra because of my convo with LP. It seems to me that you and Lil are in similar situations. You are a Type 5 and she is a Type 4 and you are both down there at the bottom of the Enneagram Chart near the abyss. Also you both have LD mates who are swinging up and to the left of you on the Enneagram chart. Her BF is a Type 7 and your wife is a Type 7 verging on 8 or a Type 8 swinging down towards 7. Therefore, you both see your mates as being similar in behavior to me.
Based on this here is what I think is the problem with your theory that if you uncover your wife's FOO issues you will grow closer. By forcing your wife to face up to her FOO issues you will make her sad. In a sense what you will do is cause her to act more like a Type 6 than a Type 8 so YOU will feel closer to her because she will have moved down the Enneagram chart towards you. You will have brought her down closer to the abyss where you live. Since she is "tougher" than me (more of a Type 8) she will fight against this and respond with both Type 7 deflection and Type 8 anger. In a sense this is a fair expectation on your part that she become more like you because you are trying to make her change in this way by being more like her (more tough). However, be aware that it will not be nearly as easy to get the sort of "breakthrough" from your W that you got from me because I am much closer to being a Type 6 to begin with, much more likely to cry or feel low self-esteem or be ready to admit my faults. Not because I'm necessarily lower or higher functioning than your wife but simply because we have somewhat different temperaments. What you should understand is that as a Type8/7 I think what will make your wife feel close to you (as opposed to what will make you feel close to your wife) is probably something in between what I want from a relationship and what Corri would want from a relationship which would probably amount to -Be or act happy and be or act respectful.
Another point I might make is that she probably has a similar feeling about you that I have about my Type 4 H. She probably feels like you are trying to make her cry or perhaps trying to make her angry (Though you are really probably seeking something like compassion and recognition?). Since my H is Type 4, I largely get the sense that he is trying to accomplish this by making me feel bad about my aesthetic qualities. Since you are a brainy, miserable SOB Type 5 (IMO-LOL- I say this with love) your W probably feels like you are trying to, as GEL put it "break her" by making her feel stupid, incompetent or crazy. I say this because when you were pushing me about my FOO issues, I vaguely had the feeling that you were trying to make me cry by making me admit that your theory was better than mine. For instance, you would be validated if I admitted that I was somewhat sexually promiscuous as a teenager because I was "desperate for affection". If I believe your theory and see myself as someone who is "desperate for affection" this dramatically lowers my self-esteem and makes me want to cry and swings me down the enneagram chart into Type 6 land and down towards you and my H by the abyss.
OTOH, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. I suppose occasionally looking into the abyss is a way in which I can come to feel more empathy for those who live down there and learning to feel empathy for those who think/feel/react/respond differently than you is one way to achieve higher functioning and feel closer to everyone. So, what's my point? I suppose simply that when it comes to relationships you can never be too self-aware.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Jenny, I just don't see Cobra as type 5, mainly bc my daughter is such a 5 (even she reasd through the enneagrams and picked it out). She is analytic and intense ( so is Cobra) but she is amazingly detached too...can sit for hours working on an art project...likes to escape from reality...would avoid rather than confront. Cobra is the pursuer in his marriage...to the point where he sometimes mistakes his own obstinance as his W's.
Just the gals chatting about you, C.
BTW, I do follow your thread. From where I sit, I feel you have the tendency to over-analyze W...and not reflect on your own vulnerabilities. I wonder what would happen if you sat back just a bit and not take the bait of your W's childish actions/irresponsibility...maybe she would surprise you. Just an idea.
Quote: Cobra is the pursuer in his marriage...to the point where he sometimes mistakes his own obstinance as his W's.
I guess I think that every Enneagram Type can be the Avoider or the Pursuer or HD or LD depending on the situation or the person with whom they are in relation. Also, I think Cobra has said that he has been trying to be more confrontational that it isn't his natural style. Sort of like the dark,cranky math professor breaking his concentration on a problem to smack the naughty fun-seeking, defiant Type 7/8 with a ruler. (I hope you appreciate this analogy Cobra because I'm making you sound kind of sexy here.)
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Thanks for the analysis. I am not familiar with the Enneagram. I bought a book on it so I guess I need to get around to reading it. I went to www.enneagraminstitute.com and took their free test. My results are:
Type 1 5 Type 2 3 Type 3 5 Type 4 3 Type 5 5 Type 6 6 Type 7 3 Type 8 2 Type 9 4
The summary says I am a type 6, though I scored equally in 1, 3, 5 categories. I can see a lot of myself in the 6, but also I can see some attributes of the 1, 3, 5. The description of the 4 seems a little further removed. Reading through the brief descriptions, and some other descriptions I found at www.9types.com, I think I may be a 6, leaning toward the 5 and my wife an 8, leaning toward the 7. So what does our combination of 6 & 8 mean to you?
If W is a 7/8, it seems almost contrary that she would be an avoider too. But then if 7/8 is a more aggressive, dominating type, perhaps they are this way to project the image they want to project, and then bury their heads in the sand to avoid hearing the truth of who they really are? This is what I feel I am up against. She builds walls to maintain the self image of who she wants to be. Nothing wrong with that per se. We all do it.
But I was trying to break through her walls, not to make her cry, but to achieve intimacy. If she cries that is a consequence of her FOO issues. I don’t really care whether she cries or not, just that she opens up. Like you, she deflects to avoid this.
If what you say is true, that she wants me to “be or act happy and be or act respectful,” then she really wants me to support the maintenance of those walls. I really have no problem doing that except for the fact that she also keeps her sense of intimacy and vulnerability hidden back there too, which keeps our relationship distant. If she could pull this one aspect into the open, I would not have a problem leaving the rest behind the walls. Those other issues of her boosting her self esteem do not bother me. But isn’t this one issue of vulnerability the most important one for relationships and the one over which we are all battling? If our partners can become vulnerable to us, and we to them, then all the other illusions don’t really matter.
So maybe that would make an interesting proposition for her. If I value intimacy and she values praise, maybe an explicit, openly acknowledged and “negotiated” trade-off would make sense. I give praise in exchange for her giving intimacy. But isn’t that what I have been trying to do all along, only is a less overt fashion?
Curiosity got the better of me and I took the free sample test too.
1: 2 2: 7 3: 3 4: 6 5: 4 6: 4 7: 6 8: 2 9: 2
Someone who knows these things better will have to let me know if that makes sense, or if the free sampler was too brief. Looking at their description of type 2, I would say my biggest fear is of being unwanted/unloved and my biggest desire is to be loved. I do fear greatly the 6 fear of lack of identity/personal significance and the 7 fear of being deprived (my version of Hell would be floating forever in empty blackness with nothing to do and nobody around to interact with ... lonliness and boredom).
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
1. There is a disticnt lack of .... empathy for abused men. If a man engages in any sort of abuse, even verbal abuse (sticks and stones, blah blah)...or heck for that matter "Neglect", youll immediately find women commiserating with the woman and holding her hand, practicly dragging her all the way to Divorce Court.
Show them a man that has been clearly subjected to emotional, even physical abuse, never mind verbal, or neglect and youll people in general kinda purse their lips and expect him to suck it up and 'be a man'. He can protect himself afterall.... or at least there is lots of expectation there.
2. Wow. you really got lambasted for 'allowing' your kids to be drug into the arguement. While I think you could have earned major respect points by correcting her,and having the kids leave the room like someone (GEL?) suggested, and sabotaged yourself, by 'Proving yourself RIGHT'
what stands out to me is that it was your W who drug them in there to begin with.
The mother. supposedly the biologically driven caretaker. Thats just REALLY telling to me. Hmm.
Anyways, my continued respect to you for your continued trying and hard work. Youve got years of anger to work thru. Do what you can to get a grip on it.
you ARE still pursuing. Your getting more subtle?, about the appearance of it, but Cally was right in one sense that if you keep up the negative pushing, and bringing out a stick that (lets be honest) you dont really want to use, it will cease to be effective. Essentially it is a TACTIC, which means it will NOT work long term.
Standing in the face of her emotionality and bad behavior, steadfast and resolute will not have the instantaneous effect, like a new negative push, but those actions will not lead to escalation by her, and long term failure. Negative pushing will cause continued escalating. So in essence you fail yourself, by creating those conditions.
When I decided to get x back, I used ... techniques... that for me were tactics, because I swore I would never use them again when I was 21. They are 'tactics' for me, becuase they are not something I am willing to do consistantly, long term, and frankly am just repelled by the position it puts me and the woman in. So I am not congruent with it. Basically, x wanted me to compete with OM, (nod to Dr. Harley) I didnt want to deal with the timeline of an A, so I broke my word to myself. They work, but I detested myself for MY lack of integrity. I detested her, because they worked.
So lets look at your sitch from a differant perspective.
you said...
I am becoming more and more convinced that most of the approaches we have discussed over many months are not geared toward breaking down the walls of a severe avoider and
So my point to you sgctxok is that I believe all this analysis is necessary in order to find the correct path, one that can identify a break in the armor of the trauma victim. I do not think DB or any other approach we have discussed
This is slightly condescending and ... um, rude to think MWD, Schnarch, etc, arent cognizant of truama/severe FOO issues. <perplexed>
Speaking of your sitch specifically, lets look at your behavior now, as opposed to a few years ago.
Now, you are
assertive,
dont back down from her,
dont supplicate,
require respect,
have a clear vision of what you want in your marriage
angry,
some substantial entitlement,
directly and explicitly communicate with her,
and because of your reading,
belief that your idea of the R should be is the 'right one' and the 'healthy one'.
Not all of it is 'good' (gosh the Taoist in me hates that judgemental wording ) but,
is that a 180 to your past behaviors?
Wow. MWD, just might be on to something there. Personally I think she is near close to genius in giving us behavioral techniques that anyone can implement, in simple phrasing and ideas, and in so doing, make ourselves a more well rounded person.
Which reminds me. I was reading various threads and something struck me.
Are we learning theis stuff to become a healthier individual, and tp fullfill our part that we have to play in the R dynamic?
Or are we learning this stuff to become the 'ONE UP', the power holder in the R, and thereby keeping the R unhealthy and imbalanced?
Each time we get along well and start to get closer, something conveniently comes up to create a rift. It is no accident. It is a contrived defense.
I doubt it is intentional, it is very likely done so that she can feel that you care for her, (though she is going about it in the wrong way, and you CAN tell her directly what the right way is) and
IT WILL NEVER STOP.
NEVER.
EVER.
It will diminish.
Now I still dont disagree much with what you have been doing or trying, but its far more effective to use your knowledge to make yourself ..... Superman. I mean that in the sense that-- you are able to jump walls in a single bound.
Its far more effective then smashing thru them, and leaves much less 'mess' to clean up and 'damge' to pay for. Smashing thru a wall just makes them want to spend there efforst on fixing it and making it stronger.
If you jump over her walls, and make it obvious they not only cant keep you out, but are getting in her way, she will take em down herself.
Here is a question for you using Gels and Callys terms.
You have two cowboys.
The first cowboy uses brute strength, force and his man made tools to 'break' the horse, the second cowboy uses his knowledge of the horses curiosty and sociable nature to create trust and friendship with the horse and causes it to desire to be his companion. (which by the way, he doesnt have to be aware of or know how to explain to others, he just has to do the correct behaviors.)
Whose skills are going to be useful longer, work in more situations, and whose R is going to last longer?
Who is dominant and who is trying to dominate?
You know another thing. You can train a horse to respond to words (verbal communication). But a soft breaker can accomplish his goal without ever talking to the horse, and in the best horse/rider teams all the communication takes place body to body.
If your bristling with anger, dismissive, ready to force what you want to happen, she is never going to believe your words of doing it in the best interest of her/the family.
remember whatever you focus on the most is what will happen, even if its what you dont want to happen. Focus on what you do want.
Quote: Show them a man that has been clearly subjected to emotional, even physical abuse, never mind verbal, or neglect and youll people in general kinda purse their lips and expect him to suck it up and 'be a man'. He can protect himself afterall.... or at least there is lots of expectation there.
Well, this isn't completely true. I did want to start up the "Sisters of Mercy Sex" charity because I felt so sorry for many of the men on this BB. It was the "crying on the massage table because I haven't been touched in so long" stories that got to me. When a real-life friend of mine told me she was not having sex with her H for IMO truly trivial reasons, I didn't come right out and call her a "b*tch" but I gave her the opposite of positive validation. Also, think about all the women who seemed quite eager to "rescue" Chrome from his plight. However, I now believe that my knee-jerk reaction in labeling LDW as "b*tchy" because they are sexually neglectful was wrong. I think anytime you're seeing somebody as a victim or a villain in a mutually agreed upon by adults situation such as modern marriage, you need to question your perspective.
Quote: Which reminds me. I was reading various threads and something struck me. Are we learning theis stuff to become a healthier individual, and tp fullfill our part that we have to play in the R dynamic? Or are we learning this stuff to become the 'ONE UP', the power holder in the R, and thereby keeping the R unhealthy and imbalanced?
Very interesting thought. I had a little "black night of the soul" myself when I realized that it really is the case that increasing value and reducing validation increases desire. If you believe that this is true how do you proceed? Isn't there something Machiavelian in all these kinds of relationship maneuvers or "tactics"? If desire is nothing but the search for value and validation then what is love? Does your dog follow you and do tricks because it loves you or because it wants to be petted and fed a bone? Why does it matter to you?
I think that as we learn this stuff we naturally experience personal growth and therefore tend towards becoming the "one up" in the relationship. We gain power or strength as we let go of control or we let go of control as we gain strength and power. The balanced relationship isn't the healthy relationship, it is the stagnant relationship in which nobody is striving towards personal growth. The healthy relationship is one in which you respond to the feeling that your partner is "one up" with your own personal growth rather than reacting in a manner to pull them back down and if you are the one who is feeling "one up" you remain confident that your partner is capable of personal growth and will catch up. Therefore, my new definition of "love" is that it is whatever binds you to the relationship through cycles of miserable desire (feeling one down) and angry disdain (feeling one up).
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
While I do agree that society is not generally kind to men and they are expected to "suck up" a great deal and if they should happen to take on the Mr. Mom role get labeled a slacker etc... I do want to say that I have never accused Cobra of being abusive nor expected him to take abuse. What bothers me is that the dynamic is so entrenched between the two of them and Mrs. C is obviously not willing to own her part in it, it is pretty much up to Cobra - figure out a new way that doesn't hurt the kids or move on. I have expressed similar thoughts to Heather.
The other thing is that regardless of whether Mrs. C appears out of control, mentally ill, b*tchy, abusive or what have you to us on this board, Cobra has clearly stated that he intends to stay (at least right now). Cobra is an adult and can choose. The kids can't.
Cobra has come a very long way in his interactions with his W and yet, his anger overshadows so much of his thinking and judgement on matters pertaining to Mrs. C (could very well be righteous anger) that I am often left to wonder why it is worth the effort. What is the goal? A workable, ok marriage between two reasonable communicators but an "emotional divorce" in which sex is still expected OR something more lofty? I don't know. I don't know if the "reasonable" goal is worth attaining. As you discovered, you could have had your W back utilizing various tactics - to what end?
Sometimes, I picture Cobra in TKD class, meeting a woman and getting to talking and just feeling through a simple interaction with another person whose FOO is unknown, the possibilities. Maybe he can bring those into his own M or maybe he will decide that the basis for that is not there and the M is over and that he could find a new start elsewhere.
I don't advocate ending a M if one can possibly avoid it however, I also don't advocate continuing to tear away at one another in front of the children (I DO hold Mrs. C equally responsible).
All that said. I have done a great deal in R's that I am not proud of. I have argued in front of my children, I have yelled at them and my ex-H, I have (with ex-H) dramatically barred the door to prevent him from leaving. After my D, I read over the pile of letters that he gave me back in which the whole dynamic was laid out before my very eyes and I became deeply ashamed (even if his behaviors were 100x my own, even if his behaviors precipitated mine) and then I could really own my part in the D. I also got an annulment through the Catholic Church which required me to write a R history in which I could also see my own culpability. I have not repeated these mistakes in my present R. In fact, unlike a lot of people who choose the exact same person again and again, I did not. I got a new set of issues that I have to learn to deal with however, at least they don't reduce me to a severely decompensated version of myself. If I were in Cobra's shoes and choosing to stay I would think some counseling on handling my own decline into inferior states of functioning in the face of R pressures would be worth a look and forming some goals around that might bring a whole lot more movement that delving into FOO issues.
As always, I am glad to see your comments. They keep me grounded. As you stated, I too have felt an inconsistency with the posters on this board. Not long ago most were up in arms over my W, saying I should divorce her, even call the cops. Now everyone jumps on me because I feel the need to take strong action. I have seen this same “herding” phenomenon with other posters.
My impression is that the people who come here do so because they are the “one-down.” Whether right or wrong, the spouse has moved on (to one degree or another) and made a decision to focus on him/herself and exclude the spouse (the posters on this board). So we come here to learn but to also try and find a way to effectively pursue our spouse. Because we are trying, in a way we are all pursuers. We are all looking for some level of validation. Nothing wrong with that, but if we look too much to others for guidance, we loose ourselves. In many instances I have felt this board resembles a bunch of lemmings, running with the safety of the pack.
I think people should step back and take a hard look at their values. If you disagree with something a poster says, then don’t be afraid to speak up. It is for your own benefit that you assert yourself. If you know something you do is not the “right” thing but you have a hard time over coming the emotional turmoil to change, then don’t be afraid to do so. Say you are doing the wrong thing, you know it, and will probably keep doing so until you outgrow this behavior. There is nothing to be ashamed of. That is reality, whether we like it or not. That is how damaged people react. Heal the damage and the behavior will change. Change the behavior with out the healing and resentment will grow. Be honest with yourself. Enough of the lecture to the board.
Now, on to my sitch. Things at home have actually been very good over the past two weeks. W has been coming home much earlier, spending time with the kids, helping clean the house, cook dinner, etc. I have done the same. Actually I am doing about the same amount of help around the house I have been doing for some time now. She is just pitching in her share. The kids are happy and content. We have had to put in a lot of time this past weekend to help the kids with homework, prepare for tests and complete a mass of projects thrown at them before Thanksgiving hits, but the tension has gone away.
W is talking to me more, trying to engage, open to having sex, though time has still been a problem. Her attitude is what seems to have changed. So something has worked.
I agree that I am still in pursuit, but I also think anything one person does can be deemed some form of pursuit. I do not think she saw my threat of D as a hollow threat. Although I am reluctant to D, I have resigned myself to the fact that it may be necessary. However, even if I file, right up to the point we sign the papers, W could suddenly “get it,” break down her walls and decide to work things out. At that point I think I would be willing to try too. My purpose is to save the marriage, not save my ego.
I do get very frustrated with W when she draws a hard line and refuses to budge. But I do not feel the same lingering resentment and hatred that I did six months or a year ago. The biggest change in W seems to be over this same issue. Something seems to have clicked so she is not focusing on her past resentments. How or why this happened, I do not know. But I can feel that part of the wall has come down.
When I talk about the techniques discussed on this board, I still think my statement is correct in that they do not address certain aspects of troubled relationships. MWD, Schnarch, Harley, are all good methods, and groundbreaking in many ways, but they cannot cover everything. There are some gaps. Couples who are fundamentally grounded and have many aspects of a “healthy” R seem to do well with these methods.
But others like mine have deeper issues. That is why I think the attachment theory can directly address those gaps and provide a good overlay to the other methods. MWD, Schnarch, Harley do not address trauma or PTSD. I am coming to see a lot of that in many of the people who post here. GEL’s horse analogy does not address the traumatized and abused horse. Some of those animals cannot be rehabilitated.
Yes, we should all be working toward becoming healthier people, which USUALLY causes positive reactions in the spouse. But not always. When one becomes too healthy, the other can feel threatened and will try to pull the healthier person back down. Maybe that sabotage will cease after a while. Maybe it won’t. It depends on the height of those defenses.
If we assume our objective is to save the marriage and put the relationship back on track, does it matter that we do so with two “healthy,” “functional” people or that we do so with two “unhealthy,” “dysfunctional” people? As long as both are happy and there is no buildup of resentment, who cares if the couple is “healthy” and “functional?” My point is that individual health is important, but in my mind, and for purposes of all my comments on this board, I put it secondary to saving the marriage.
With my W, I have had to regress down to a very basic and fundamental level of relationships. Like a horse or dog, a basic understanding must be present of the consequences of ignoring boundaries and the desires of others. My W NEVER had this understanding, as best I can tell. She was raised (and even praised) to push for her needs or expect them to not be met. This is the narcissistic family setting, in which each person must fight to be heard and validated. Each is concerned about themselves only. Consideration of the needs of others is foreign, since it is assumed that the other person is fighting for his/her needs too. It is survival of the fittest.
It is on this level that I had to go, to tell W that she MUST learn to consider my needs and the needs of others if she wants others to consider her. It also required that she stop denying that she has needs that others can fill and that she is vulnerable, just like anyone else. Intellectually she understood this, but she had not learned to feel it. That is why I saw no other course than to use a carrot and stick approach.
It may have been possible to only use the carrot and through compassion teach her to trust and come out of her shell. But who knows how long that would have taken. It also completely ignores my needs. I have realized that I too need to acknowledge my damage and my need for compassion from others. To not asset my needs build my resentment. Whether that is right or wrong, it is reality. I do not think I am willing to wait years longer for W to rehabilitate herself. This was my method as I stumbled through this process. I know others may not follow. But I did what I believed I had to do to heal the both of us. It has been a very long and tough road.
I do believe we are on the path to recovery. If my suspicions are correct and that W is trying to lower her walls, see my POV and compromise as I am trying to do, then I think we can do a lot toward healing ourselves and our children.
I hear what you and others say, but I still believe simply going through the motions to change behavior will not make a lasting change, at least not for us. We have tried it and it did not work. I now understand why. Going through those “motions” do nothing to address the underlying need for validation and comfort. To me it felt like I was supposed to just sweep my pain under the rug, deal with it and ignore it and W got off scot-free. As you would expect, in times of stress all those stuffed emotions come flying out and we take two steps back for the one step forward that took a month to do.
Pushing into the FOO just to relive the past is not my purpose, per se. Pushing into FOO for me was only a way to take down the walls that prevent both of us from responding to the good things we each did, and to admit that we each want to receive those good things. It had more to do with understanding what your objective is, what you really want, so that you can accept it when you get it.
Trying to arrest my decline into inferior states of functioning is Schnarchian, and it is one of the flaws I see in his idea of holding onto oneself. That part I agree with is that we each need to be responsible for our own behavior, not resort to physical violence, etc. But his ideas seem to ignore the fact that what the other person does to me affects me. Since we cannot control another’s behavior, Schnarch struck me as saying that if the other person does as s/he please, then we have to decide whether to take it or not. This is true, but the flipside of this teaching is that if the other person focused on my feelings, and I on the other person’s, there may not be a need to hold onto myself. In fact, in some cases there may not be a need to enter the crucible at all.
Attachment theory has this subtle shift in focus from Schnarch. It moves back toward IMAGO, yet it is different. IMAGO (at least what I experienced) seemed to focus on giving a false validation to the other, mirroring back the words necessary to placate the other. It felt patronizing and in this way was actually rather polarizing for us. We said we heard what the other was saying, but we also knew we did not have to agree with it. In fact, W got good at saying what I needed to hear and the went on her merry way as if I never existed. This did not help.
What we are tying to do now is to understand each other’s true needs, why we feel as we feel, and how we can help one another. I am trying to take a team approach in making her issues mine and vice versa. This creates bonding for us. The other methods did not. I can see that as we recover and become more confident in the marriage, we can move toward a higher level of differentiation and interdependence, but for now, that goal is simply too much to ask for. There is not the foundation upon which it can build.
) but,
