[MJontheMend]

Show them a man that has been clearly subjected to emotional, even physical abuse, never mind verbal, or neglect and youll people in general kinda purse their lips and expect him to suck it up and 'be a man'. He can protect himself afterall.... or at least there is lots of expectation there.

Well, this isn't completely true. I did want to start up the "Sisters of Mercy Sex" charity because I felt so sorry for many of the men on this BB. It was the "crying on the massage table because I haven't been touched in so long" stories that got to me. When a real-life friend of mine told me she was not having sex with her H for IMO truly trivial reasons, I didn't come right out and call her a "b*tch" but I gave her the opposite of positive validation. Also, think about all the women who seemed quite eager to "rescue" Chrome from his plight. However, I now believe that my knee-jerk reaction in labeling LDW as "b*tchy" because they are sexually neglectful was wrong. I think anytime you're seeing somebody as a victim or a villain in a mutually agreed upon by adults situation such as modern marriage, you need to question your perspective.

Which reminds me. I was reading various threads and something struck me.
Are we learning theis stuff to become a healthier individual, and tp fullfill our part that we have to play in the R dynamic?
Or are we learning this stuff to become the 'ONE UP', the power holder in the R, and thereby keeping the R unhealthy and imbalanced?

Very interesting thought. I had a little "black night of the soul" myself when I realized that it really is the case that increasing value and reducing validation increases desire. If you believe that this is true how do you proceed? Isn't there something Machiavelian in all these kinds of relationship maneuvers or "tactics"? If desire is nothing but the search for value and validation then what is love? Does your dog follow you and do tricks because it loves you or because it wants to be petted and fed a bone? Why does it matter to you?

I think that as we learn this stuff we naturally experience personal growth and therefore tend towards becoming the "one up" in the relationship. We gain power or strength as we let go of control or we let go of control as we gain strength and power. The balanced relationship isn't the healthy relationship, it is the stagnant relationship in which nobody is striving towards personal growth. The healthy relationship is one in which you respond to the feeling that your partner is "one up" with your own personal growth rather than reacting in a manner to pull them back down and if you are the one who is feeling "one up" you remain confident that your partner is capable of personal growth and will catch up. Therefore, my new definition of "love" is that it is whatever binds you to the relationship through cycles of miserable desire (feeling one down) and angry disdain (feeling one up).