1. There is a disticnt lack of .... empathy for abused men. If a man engages in any sort of abuse, even verbal abuse (sticks and stones, blah blah)...or heck for that matter "Neglect", youll immediately find women commiserating with the woman and holding her hand, practicly dragging her all the way to Divorce Court.
Show them a man that has been clearly subjected to emotional, even physical abuse, never mind verbal, or neglect and youll people in general kinda purse their lips and expect him to suck it up and 'be a man'. He can protect himself afterall.... or at least there is lots of expectation there.
2. Wow. you really got lambasted for 'allowing' your kids to be drug into the arguement. While I think you could have earned major respect points by correcting her,and having the kids leave the room like someone (GEL?) suggested, and sabotaged yourself, by 'Proving yourself RIGHT'
what stands out to me is that it was your W who drug them in there to begin with.
The mother. supposedly the biologically driven caretaker. Thats just REALLY telling to me. Hmm.
Anyways, my continued respect to you for your continued trying and hard work. Youve got years of anger to work thru. Do what you can to get a grip on it.
you ARE still pursuing. Your getting more subtle?, about the appearance of it, but Cally was right in one sense that if you keep up the negative pushing, and bringing out a stick that (lets be honest) you dont really want to use, it will cease to be effective. Essentially it is a TACTIC, which means it will NOT work long term.
Standing in the face of her emotionality and bad behavior, steadfast and resolute will not have the instantaneous effect, like a new negative push, but those actions will not lead to escalation by her, and long term failure. Negative pushing will cause continued escalating. So in essence you fail yourself, by creating those conditions.
When I decided to get x back, I used ... techniques... that for me were tactics, because I swore I would never use them again when I was 21. They are 'tactics' for me, becuase they are not something I am willing to do consistantly, long term, and frankly am just repelled by the position it puts me and the woman in. So I am not congruent with it. Basically, x wanted me to compete with OM, (nod to Dr. Harley) I didnt want to deal with the timeline of an A, so I broke my word to myself. They work, but I detested myself for MY lack of integrity. I detested her, because they worked.
So lets look at your sitch from a differant perspective.
you said...
I am becoming more and more convinced that most of the approaches we have discussed over many months are not geared toward breaking down the walls of a severe avoider and
So my point to you sgctxok is that I believe all this analysis is necessary in order to find the correct path, one that can identify a break in the armor of the trauma victim. I do not think DB or any other approach we have discussed
This is slightly condescending and ... um, rude to think MWD, Schnarch, etc, arent cognizant of truama/severe FOO issues. <perplexed>
Speaking of your sitch specifically, lets look at your behavior now, as opposed to a few years ago.
Now, you are
assertive,
dont back down from her,
dont supplicate,
require respect,
have a clear vision of what you want in your marriage
angry,
some substantial entitlement,
directly and explicitly communicate with her,
and because of your reading,
belief that your idea of the R should be is the 'right one' and the 'healthy one'.
Not all of it is 'good' (gosh the Taoist in me hates that judgemental wording ) but,
is that a 180 to your past behaviors?
Wow. MWD, just might be on to something there. Personally I think she is near close to genius in giving us behavioral techniques that anyone can implement, in simple phrasing and ideas, and in so doing, make ourselves a more well rounded person.
Which reminds me. I was reading various threads and something struck me.
Are we learning theis stuff to become a healthier individual, and tp fullfill our part that we have to play in the R dynamic?
Or are we learning this stuff to become the 'ONE UP', the power holder in the R, and thereby keeping the R unhealthy and imbalanced?
Each time we get along well and start to get closer, something conveniently comes up to create a rift. It is no accident. It is a contrived defense.
I doubt it is intentional, it is very likely done so that she can feel that you care for her, (though she is going about it in the wrong way, and you CAN tell her directly what the right way is) and
IT WILL NEVER STOP.
NEVER.
EVER.
It will diminish.
Now I still dont disagree much with what you have been doing or trying, but its far more effective to use your knowledge to make yourself ..... Superman. I mean that in the sense that-- you are able to jump walls in a single bound.
Its far more effective then smashing thru them, and leaves much less 'mess' to clean up and 'damge' to pay for. Smashing thru a wall just makes them want to spend there efforst on fixing it and making it stronger.
If you jump over her walls, and make it obvious they not only cant keep you out, but are getting in her way, she will take em down herself.
Here is a question for you using Gels and Callys terms.
You have two cowboys.
The first cowboy uses brute strength, force and his man made tools to 'break' the horse, the second cowboy uses his knowledge of the horses curiosty and sociable nature to create trust and friendship with the horse and causes it to desire to be his companion. (which by the way, he doesnt have to be aware of or know how to explain to others, he just has to do the correct behaviors.)
Whose skills are going to be useful longer, work in more situations, and whose R is going to last longer?
Who is dominant and who is trying to dominate?
You know another thing. You can train a horse to respond to words (verbal communication). But a soft breaker can accomplish his goal without ever talking to the horse, and in the best horse/rider teams all the communication takes place body to body.
If your bristling with anger, dismissive, ready to force what you want to happen, she is never going to believe your words of doing it in the best interest of her/the family.
remember whatever you focus on the most is what will happen, even if its what you dont want to happen. Focus on what you do want.
) but,
