Since my last thread on Adult Attachment Disorder is getting long, I will start a new thread. I suspect there will be plenty of discussion here, so the extra space will be useful.
In the last post of my sitch several weeks ago I mentioned that things were going ok, but it would only be a matter of time until our next blowup. It didn’t take long to arrive. W has been picking up D13 and friends from school one day a week, sharing carpooling duties for after school volleyball games and practice. (Note that I have not participated in pickup since D13 said she was dropping out of TKD.) The season is now over but the last week of practice was about three weeks ago, W forgot to pickup D13 several times and one of her friends had to call her mother. D13 was majorly PO’d and embarrassed, and for good reason. W apologized the first time, then missed again, and again.
The last for pickup was at the last volleyball game. W went to watch and after the game (which was away) returned to the school to pickup D13 (who has to ride back on the bus with the other kids). Something fell through with coordinating all this and D13 could not get in touch with W to let her know what was going on (since W left her phone at work). D13 then tried to call W’s friend to come get her. This friend had just had surgery (hysterectomy or something) and should not be moving around, but she was trying to get D13! I think D13 ended up getting a ride from someone else, but when everyone got home, W had chewed out D13 for asking her friend for a ride.
That was more than I could take and I jumped in to tell W that she was the problem, not D13, that W’s ADD was not an excuse for forgetting her promises and she needed to do something to hold up her responsibilities. Furthermore, she should not be placing the needs of her friend over D13, that this 50 year old woman was perfectly capable of telling D13 she could not drive. I said it was not D13’s fault for asking but the friend’s fault (and lack of boundaries) for accepting. (This woman has a major problem asserting herself to anyone and W feels she is a victim in an abusive relationship, and W has a protective attitude toward her.)
Fast forward to two weeks ago…. I had given W a new cell phone earlier this year. She kept the wall charger at school but has since lost it (like that’s a surprise!) I had an extra one at home which she was using, but last Friday a week ago she said she could not find it and accused me of taking it. I specifically recall unplugging it one morning after she left, but leaving it on the window sill where she had it. The kids and I searched the house but could not find it. Sunday it turns up. She not only found it, but later comes around to admitting that she hid it in order to teach me a lesson, to feel what it is like to be accused of doing something she didn’t do. I still do not know what it is she is referring to, but I think she is really mad at me jumping on her about not picking up D13 from volleyball, but man was I pissed!!!
It occurred to me that she is really not into this relationship and has little desire to be. As we argued, all she could do was point to one fault or another of mine, so I asked her why she was still here. She said it was because of the kids (which is a reversal from her stance a few years ago when SHE thought we should D). I told her this was a deflection and a dodge of her own issues, that she was afraid to be the “bad guy” and file. I told her I was tired of chasing her and she needed to put forth some effort, become proactive and try to come up with ideas on how to make things work out between us. I told her I was looking into a good litigating attorney like she had, rather than the collaborative lawyer I first retained. That would level the playing field and we could let the lawyers go at it. She did say she would call around for a new counselor. I pulled a list of counselors who are covered under our insurance and gave it to her. She also said she would read Schlessinger to better understand my POV in this marriage.
I let a week pass by then this past Saturday asked her where things stood and what her intentions were. It turns out she did not have a chance to call any counselors, only read the first chapter of the book, and was wanting to find someone who could explain to me why I am the abusive partner. I told her it was obvious nothing had changed and I would file on Monday. I told the kids my intention.
She then called the kids together to “inform” them of what a selfish parent I was, and that I just wanted to find another woman. I told the kids this was not true. She turned the conversation turned to where would the kids want to live – with her or me. They are not stupid and replied that they wanted to stay in the house, regardless of who lived there. W said this shocked her that they might not want to live with her. It was a very effective boundary by the kids.
What came up was that W was thinking I should put the concerns of the kids first and agree to keep paying for the house, move out and let her and the kids live there. After they all were out of high school, we could sell the house. I told her no way, if the judge gave her the house, I would want my share of the equity right away, and that I had no intentions of being friends with her. She kept on about a couple down the street who did this, about how we could get adjacent town homes, or even wall the existing house into two apartments (yeah, that one was crazy).
Her plan has been to stick out the marriage as long as she could while she built up cash to buy out my share of the house. But this isn’t going to fly. She doesn’t have the money. I told her I could buy her out with help from my parents. We ended up leaving the conversation there. Later that night, we talked some more and I read her excerpts from Dieda, trying to explain to her what it was that I want in a marriage and what Dieda says is my responsibility as the H. These were some new concepts to her, but they got some mileage. I then read excerpts from Schlessinger (knowing full well she had no intention of reading it). She had the opinion Schlessinger was promoting the subjugation of women to men, but I think we gained some mileage here too. I stressed that I only wanted to be cared for and for her to be considerate of me. That did not mean spending lots of time together, but simple things like returning my phone call, being receptive to sex, in return for my providing the safe, nurturing environment in which she could build trust. We actually ended the night on a peaceful note.
Sunday was relaxed and she seemed to be making an effort to be engaged. I had a school parent/student tennis tournament/fundraiser with D15. She had a great time with al her friends and came home in a good mood, which helped. That evening I probed W’s mood a little further and asked if we could have sex, and she obliged. Monday she was talkative on the phone as we both drove home, and later she cleaned the kitchen while I watched TV with the kids (which is a change from the past few months where she focused on her school work and I prepared dinner and cleaned up). I knew she was tired, being a Monday, and I felt like I should help too, but I let her do the chores (I did scrub some pots later).
Before bed we talked a little more. She made a remark to me about still needing to protect herself. I told her that it sounded like she was still in the same defensive boat and only going through the motions, rather than really trying to work things out. We talked this over some and I explained to her that although I understood why she would make such a comment, there was nothing comforting or reassuring in it. She deflected by saying it was truthful and not meant to attack. I asked her what she could say to show some concern over the relationship and wanting to work on it, while still needing to protect herself. She literally could not come up with an answer, so I gave her some examples, which seemed to get my point across.
She kept going back to her “yeah, buts.” I told her to stop deflecting and just accept that both she and I want to have a connection and to feel cared for. She actually started to get a little emotional, really feeling sorry for herself, and then started to get upset. But she clamed down and decided to go to bed. I stood up took her arm and hugged her. She just stood there trying to deal with it. I told her she was just like D13 when she gets mad. She wants to be held but wants to push away and hit at the same time. If you stay she gets mad, but if you leave she gets madder. W said that D13 had at least learned to ask to be held when she is upset. It told W she could learn from D13.
As W left to bed, I rubbed her butt, which made her uncomfortable. She made an interesting comment to me, saying “Don’t mix sex with emotions,” and went to bed. I will be exploring that comment in the next few weeks. It says a lot about the mindset of an avoider and a trauma victim.
So far this week, things have been really good. Both Monday and Tuesday night W came home from school early to spend some time with S9. She cooked dinner last night while ran to the store to pick up a few items and then I went for a quick jog. She cleaned up some of the dishes and helped with the rest. She seems to be getting the message and I am trying to respond. She is talking and interacting with me like you would expect in a “normal” healthy relationship. I hope this means she understands that holding onto her resentment will not accomplish anything, that the only way to let that go is to just let it go. I hope we can stay on this level.
At the end of my thread on Adult Attachment Disorder, sgctxok asked the following:
...DB doesn't lead you into your head, it leads you into action....the idea is that you can keep analyzing the reasons you're in a certain place in your relationship, but that doesn't necessarily lead you to the actions that will work for you.
But you don't have to wait to understand it before you take action. In fact you won't anyway....you will be doing something....but if you always do what you've always done, you'll most likely get the response you've always gotten.
And on Lil’s thread about Passive/Agression, sgctxok asked:
How do you guys have the energy to put into analyzing all of this? What are your non-verbal, your in-my-body-not-in-my-head solutions to try? Experiments and results? What are you trying?
I am becoming more and more convinced that most of the approaches we have discussed over many months are not geared toward breaking down the walls of a severe avoider, someone who has experienced some form a trauma. There are a few examples on this board. I think my wife is one. Others seem to be:
I am assuming Happy Giant is seeking professional counseling for his wife since we haven’t heard from him in a while (at least I hope so) and she seems to be the most extreme case of anyone here. Lil’s BF is also going to counseling. My wife and I have done the same for over 3 years, but are not seeing anyone at this time. For myself, we have tried most of the techniques discussed here, and like everyone else, the results have been disappointing. I believe there is value in these approaches, but I think trauma victims need to have an exceptionally high level of heat applied to the crucible before the toxin of their FOO can be adequately brought to a boil. Then they need lots of compassion and bonding.
This is where I strongly differ with the consensus on this board that you must accept the fact hat you cannot change someone else. I agree that it is always the others person’s choice whether to change or not. But I also believe that I can put lots of pressure on the other person to get them to change. The risk is that I push too far and cause a D. One the other hand, if I do not push hard enough a D results anyway. It is a very fine line IMO. But walking this line is actually LOW RISK, in that not doing so will eventually result in D anyway. In other words, there is little downside and tremendous upside. The risk/reward ratio is good. The only alternative is to resign yourself to living in limbo.
I know my idea rubs many the wrong way. I think some of this may be due to fear of being controlled, which is natural. I know that what I have put out has certainly come back to haunt me. But that is part of the price of change and so I persist because I see absolutely no other choice. If you keep hammering on the door, eventually the rust will break loose on the hinges and the door will start to budge. The door to my wife’s skeleton closet has started to creak. I intend to push it open and I told her so, saying “You’re going to have to open up your box and address those emotions or go ahead and D. There is no other way.” She did not rebut this since she knows it is true. But it scares her nevertheless.
So my point to you sgctxok is that I believe all this analysis is necessary in order to find the correct path, one that can identify a break in the armor of the trauma victim. I do not think DB or any other approach we have discussed is specifically geared toward this problem. Getting to the avoider is one of the toughest tasks to undertake. I have been told by a few therapists that working with a true OCD person is also extremely difficult. I see emotional avoiders as a less severe case of OCD. Both are avoiding as a protective maneuver. In the end action must be taken, and I think everyone here, including myself, is taking action.
Quote: This is where I strongly differ with the consensus on this board that you must accept the fact hat you cannot change someone else.
Cobra, for the zillionth time, this statement does NOT mean that you simply "accept" the way things are and resign yourself to a life of misery. This statement means you put the fulcrum where the lever will actually WORK to move the thing you want moved.
Changing your own behavior is the only thing you can actually change, BUT changing your own behavior CAN change the dynamics of the R and lead to a change in the other person.
You cannot directly MAKE someone else do anything, short of using force. You can make it worth their while to change, but THEY still have to do the changing.
Why are you blind to this subtle-- BUT REAL-- distinction?
I told her it was obvious nothing had changed and I would file on Monday. I told the kids my intention. . . . She then called the kids together to “inform” them of what a selfish parent I was
Both of you are being incredibly selfish parents. You're dragging your kids into an adult situation where they don't belong. Of course they may end up at that point anyway but at least by then it should be *settled*. As it stands, you're ripping them back and forth emotionally.
Next time, don't tell them until after you file. If you think this is bad advice, talk to a therapist. They're not pawns and if you can't keep them out of this battle, even if you feel it's unfair to you, you need to evaluate whether or not you're a man/grown-up.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Cobra, for the zillionth time, this statement does NOT mean that you simply "accept" the way things are and resign yourself to a life of misery. This statement means you put the fulcrum where the lever will actually WORK to move the thing you want moved.
Isn’t this exactly what I am doing?
Changing your own behavior is the only thing you can actually change, BUT changing your own behavior CAN change the dynamics of the R and lead to a change in the other person.
…and this too?
You cannot directly MAKE someone else do anything, short of using force. You can make it worth their while to change, but THEY still have to do the changing.
I agree with this statement in principle, but for my sitch, changing myself to make it worth W’s while to change will not result in change. I have not seen strategy ever work for me. W has ranted and raved that I should know negative behavior on my part will only harden her position. I know that is true up to a point. I also know that positive change on my part does not bring about change on her part either.
For me to become the perfect H means she must then become the perfect W. This puts the spotlight on her and she just throws up more defenses and deflections. The latest strategy was to dig back into our past and bring up all her resentment over the last 15 years. It is all an anxious reaction in having to confront her emotions.
So I give the carrot by working on myself, then use the stick to keep her from going into her shell. I cannot make it sufficiently worthwhile for her to change so I make it too unbearable for her not to change. She has the choice to change or not. This may come under the definition of a boundary, but I am sure it feels like control to her.
It goes without saying that we are selfish parents. Any narcissistic family setting is selfish. I informed the kids of my decision because I do think they need to know, and I had every intention of filing. It was not a ploy. I think W knew this too which is what pushed her out of her comfort zone.
You're wrong. Talk to a therapist or anyone whose opinion on this issue you respect more than your own and stop harming your children. I don't give a crap about your wife's comfort zone.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I'm not going to say whether or not I agree with your approach to your W. What I will say though is this.....I imagine your W really gets tired of feeling like you are her analyst, her therapist.
I KNOW you feel you need to push her to address certain things (I get that), but honestly....I got the feeling from what you wrote that you are like a battering ram when you two get this way. That battering ram approach of (what appears to be) constant critiquing of her issues....which IMPO only validates her "I'm abused" stance. I can see how she might view this as mental/emotional abuse. NOW I'm not saying that is what you ARE doing, I'm saying....I can see how this could make her feel that way and validate that opinion of hers.
Don't you think that figuring out why she feels you are abusive would be helpful? Don't you think that trying to be empathetic to her and put yourself in her shoes to try to view your behavior toward her....would be helpful? I don't see you doing this.
FWIW...I also think it was a REALLY bad move to discuss D with your kids. This shouldn't be done until (and if) you actually file and are in the process....until that time you are only adding undue stress and pressure to your children. They never should have been put in the position of saying who they would live with (and I know your W asked that question)....but YOU brought up the D conversation, so YOU are responsible for that scenario ever happening to begin with. I can already hear you saying "I don't agree!"
I imagine your W really gets tired of feeling like you are her analyst, her therapist.
Yes, I know this, yet I will continue IF she does not take any initiative and work on the marriage. Remember, her best solution is to do nothing. That way she does not have to move forward and become vulnerable or move backward and deal with D. I have told her that staying in limbo is not acceptable to me.
I got the feeling from what you wrote that you are like a battering ram when you two get this way. That battering ram approach of (what appears to be) constant critiquing of her issues....which IMPO only validates her "I'm abused" stance.
Yes, this is the “stick.”
Don't you think that figuring out why she feels you are abusive would be helpful? Don't you think that trying to be empathetic to her and put yourself in her shoes to try to view your behavior toward her....would be helpful? I don't see you doing this.
Actually I have done this and this is the very point where we got stuck in counseling. It was the therapist who was pushing the issue. W came up with some lame reasons why she thought she was being ganged up on and stopped going. I agree that empathy is key, but in with my W, it is not sufficient. She has a hard time accepting compassion, gifts, caring, etc., so rather than open up to that compassion, she rejects it and puts up her deflections.
As far as the kids go, it was W who pulled them into a big discussion. She was trying to make the point that they would all want to live with her, that if I cared for them I would give her the house, I should not file but just stay in limbo, blah, blah, blah. This conversation backfired on her and it caught her as a surprise. I knew what the kids would want to do and there was little for me to discuss with them.
Only to this extent was the conversation useful because W came to realize the kids do not have undying loyalty to only her. That thought, the belief that she would get the house and full custody (or conservatorship) of the kids, that she had a pit bull for a lawyer, all served to strengthen her position in her mind, and sharply lower the need for her to negotiate or open her blinders. She was not willing to work on the marriage because she did not have to. I think she is realizing the playing field is more level and she needs to work together. She know the court will place S9 with his sisters. If they both say they want to stay in the house regardless of who owns it, then S9 will be in the house too. If W cannot keep the house, then her plan falls apart. Suddenly working on the marriage with me while I offer her as much compassion as I can starts to look attractive to her.
As I said....I know your W started the conversation.....YOU SHOULD HAVE LOOKED OUT FOR THE CHILDREN AND ASKED THEM TO LEAVE THE ROOM! You should have ended that scene in the best interest of the kids, not in the interest of you or your W. It appeared the kids were allowed to stay in the room merely to massage the ego of you or your W. Your W hoped they'd side with her, you felt you already knew what the kids would say (so you would prove you were right.)
Having your children in the room during this helps help your children what manner....how exactly is it doing what is best for them? By forcing them to come up with a diplomatic answer to a question they never should have been asked how does that help? By being stuck in the same room where one parent is basically making them choose one or the other to live with...how does that help?
Do you honestly not see how wrong this is to do to your kids (for both of you to do to your kids)?
