What to expect...part two (OT, Betsey , need ya)

[Mamabear]

Hi Betsey,
Sorry to be such a pain when you are so busy but I really value your words.

Hmm, Mama. Are you saying that he usually initiates with the hug and peck?

No, I go to him. He usually turns his cheek to me because I wear lipgloss and he doesn't want it to get on his lips. Should I not put it on until I get in the car? I will try this tonight and try to give him a passionate kiss on the lips before I leave so he has something to think about while I'm gone.

What will he be doing specifically when you feel he loves you and has recommitted to the M?

I don't see him when he leaves for work but I am usually here when he gets home. I would like it if he asked me about my day and came to me and gave me a hug and/or a kiss hello.

When we are watching TV together, I would like to feel invited to sit close and snuggle with him.

When we take walks I would like for him to reach out and hold my hand.

What specifically are you doing to speak his LL? Remember, good begets good and bad begets bad. So if you're wanting something from him that you're not giving, your expectations are off kilter.

See above. Maybe I need to take the risk and initiate all that I want from him. Maybe he feels as I do and is afraid to reach out.

So, if you want affection, what are you doing to set the climate so that it's possible? What are you doing and saying to make this a viable option? And what are you doing/saying to let HIM know that you love HIM and are committed to the M?

I have really been thinking before speaking and have been working on being direct. I am speaking to him as my H, not in the "motherly" tones that I used to. I have been letting him know how much I appreciate all he has been doing with the kids and the house since I have been working so much lately. I feel quilty that he works hard all day and then has to come home and deal with homework, dinner, bedtime, trick or treat all on his own. He did tell me that yes, it is hard but that I am doing the same by taking care of everything during the day and then going to work at night. He is concerned that I am working too many hours.

If you're going to make this work, you're going to have to work much harder at your patience in the process

Betsey, I will tell you and everyone else this is where I suck . I like everything now, instant gratification. Lately, I have learned that this is selfish behavior and I will appreciate things much more after "waiting" for it.

The ones here who have successfully Pieced have been the ones who have been solution and goal oriented rather than ruled by impatience and emotion.

I am going to have to read this over and over. I realize I cannot just sit back and wait for things to happen. If I want it I must go out and get it.

All my responses to you could be totally off but I think I understand what you are saying. I feel distance from my H but if I look at the big picture, maybe he feels uncomfortable around me. Once he feels safer with me he may become more affectionate. He probably feels like he is under a microscope and any "wrong" he does I will jump on him like a mountain lion. This is a dynamic that I am tring to change.

Thanks, I welcome your feedback. Or anyone else's for that matter.

[Underdog]

Mama--You're not a pain. If you were, I wouldn't post to you.

He usually turns his cheek to me because I wear lipgloss and he doesn't want it to get on his lips. Should I not put it on until I get in the car? I will try this tonight and try to give him a passionate kiss on the lips before I leave so he has something to think about while I'm gone.

If lipstick is why he doesn't initiate, then definitely stop putting obstacles in the path to getting what you need! So, great idea.

I don't see him when he leaves for work but I am usually here when he gets home. I would like it if he asked me about my day and came to me and gave me a hug and/or a kiss hello.

When we are watching TV together, I would like to feel invited to sit close and snuggle with him.

When we take walks I would like for him to reach out and hold my hand.

Okay, now that you've put these actions on his part out here, you're gonna be held accountable for changing YOU in order for him to feel as though he wants to do them.

But before I go on, have you both had "the talk"? Have you authentically shared what you'd like to see to feel loved, and ask him what he needs to see from you as well?

Honest sharing, no defensiveness. You ask him first for the SOLE INTENT on hearing what he has to say. Don't speak, don't prepare any rebuttals, don't get defensive about what happened in the past. Agree to hear him out and see his requests as authentic about what he needs from you. The past is what got the 2 of you into trouble, so make it a point to say that to yourself periodically.

This is a new start, and you're both going to have to learn how to communicate effectively. And even though it hurts to hear truths about ourselves from others, it's a major incentive for us to become better people.

I have really been thinking before speaking and have been working on being direct. I am speaking to him as my H, not in the "motherly" tones that I used to. I have been letting him know how much I appreciate all he has been doing with the kids and the house since I have been working so much lately. I feel quilty that he works hard all day and then has to come home and deal with homework, dinner, bedtime, trick or treat all on his own. He did tell me that yes, it is hard but that I am doing the same by taking care of everything during the day and then going to work at night. He is concerned that I am working too many hours.

Good! Keep up the good work! Remember, by doing these things you are depositing into your marital love account. You simply have to stop expecting to withdraw so quickly when you're saving up for a big ticket item. It will pay off, Mama. But as you say, the goal is to be in this for the long haul. When you expect instant gratification, you're denying *yourself* and your H the ultimate reward that is derived by working hard at a most worthwhile goal.

Also, I suggest you find a way to stop feeling guilty about needing him to be an active father to your children. Homework, etc. is part of being a parent. If he truly is committed to your M, this isn't even a thought for him. Parenting is about love. Let him feel needed and valued, Mama. Encourage your children to need him too.

I attended a parent meeting for my D12's volleyball club last night. The club director spoke to both parents and players for a half hour before we split off to meet with the coaches for our respective teams. What he said burned into my brain... and spoke to them in terms of 1st person.

He reminded them that "we are a team". There is no I in team--it's a "we" thing. And as such, nothing about the team is about me. Nothing. My contributions are wanted and needed but the team would go on if I were to leave. It's not about me.

The same is true in a marriage. When both of us come to the table, it's because we *want* to be there with the other person. Therefore, what we do must benefit the team or the marriage before it satisfies us as individuals.

In Catholicism, this is what is defined as a sacramental marriage. The marriage becomes the unity to protect and nurture, and occasionally, as individuals who are half of that marriage, we are called to make large sacrifices on behalf of the union.

That means having faith that our sacrifices are God's will and will ultimately benefit us down the road. For when you make the marriage better, both parties are more inclined to reap individual benefits as well.

What's good for any marriage is faith and patience. And while I realize that you indicated you are more the instant gratification type, I'm not letting you off the hook. Mama, very few of us here came to the BB with loads of patience. I perhaps led the lot of the most impatient and selfish women. Hell, I'm an Aries, and we're known for those traits. But just because I behaved that way didn't mean it was acceptable or that I couldn't change.

I was fortunate enough to have an amazing MC who coached me wisely on the ways of being vulnerable, allowing Mr. W. to make decisions for all of us and most of all, in being patient. For the big changes, I had to sometimes wait 9-12 months before I saw any obvious signs of change and then, ultimately, payoff.

My D12 has taught me how to be a winner, Mama. There is no instant gratification in sports. You have a goal to be the best athlete you can and a contributing member to an entity that is larger than yourself. It takes time to learn skills and hone them. It takes lots of practice to be able to use them during a game. And it takes patience and forgiveness to keep at it, all year long.

So I'll ask you a few more provoking questions. Ready?

I feel distance from my H but if I look at the big picture, maybe he feels uncomfortable around me. Once he feels safer with me he may become more affectionate. He probably feels like he is under a microscope and any "wrong" he does I will jump on him like a mountain lion. This is a dynamic that I am tring to change.

What are some SPECIFIC behaviors on your part would you say that make him feel uncomfortable either being around you or giving you what you need and want?

These are very connected, Mama. I want you to keep thinking about all of this. As my MC told me, learn to think of your M as a system. What are you putting into the system that keeps it in the same mode? Conversely, can you see any behaviors on your part that keep sending you the same old results that you know don't work?

I'm gonna warn you. I'm gonna hound you until you list them. How I changed this about myself was to hold myself accountable to not only me, but others who were trying to help me get what I wanted. So these questions are designed to be flags to help you learn how to stop and hold yourself accountable before you do or say anything that may inflict harm on your marriage.

Back in awhile.

Betsey

[InHisHands]

Mama,

I posted an answer to you on my thread, but just in case you didn't see it I wanted to let you know that you can use whatever you want to from my post. I'm certainly using your sitch to learn from, too!

[Mamabear]

Betsey, before I respond I wanted to print this post that I copied from InHisHands (with her permission). Alot of this holds true for myself as well.

How do so many of you find the patience and selflessness that you have? I read your threads and am in awe of your ability to endure and to love, then I'm ashamed of myself.

I read your threads and I think I've learned something from them, I'm encouraged by them, I'm strengthened by them, and then I go home and forget everything. I am impatient and selfish.

In the last three months I have had to face how incredibly degrading and disrespectful I've been to H. I changed that and, thank God, it appears to be a lasting change because I haven't slipped back into that particular pattern yet. But now I'm seeing that, no matter what he does, it doesn't seem to be enough. My God, he is doing everything in his power and all I can do is whine (mostly to myself, but sometimes out loud).

Other than the one night (Sunday) that he slipped back to his old ways, he has been patient and forgiving and understanding. Any other woman would be thrilled. Any other woman would appreciate him. Any other woman would be happy to have him home & trying like he is. I just find fault.

How do I stop looking at what isn't and start appreciating what is? I tell myself to do it, then I get self-absorbed and whiney. I even made myself a note yesterday that said, "Compliment the good. Ignore the bad."

The good yesterday:
1) He rubbed my shoulders before I left for work
2) He went to church with me & held my hand as we prayed
3) He sang to me in the bathtub
4) He spent over an hour just talking with me about everything and nothing, like normal people talk

The bad:
1) He hadn't called me in two days (nevermind that he's HOME and we spend lots of time together without the stupid phone calls)
2) He didn't make a move on me in the bathtub

Which do you think I focused on? Yup. The bad. And the bad wasn't even bad, it was just me blowing things up in my head. I'm assigning meanings to EVERYTHING he does & doesn't do and I'm punishing him for my own imagination.

He believes it's his fault because he destroyed my confidence. He believes that he has to do & say & be everything I need in order to rebuild me. I have told him it's my problem because I need to grow up and learn to accept what is instead of wishing for what isn't.

He is, again, taking responsibility for my happiness and I appear to be putting it on him even though I know in my heart it's not his problem, it's mine. This is going to destroy us. He cannot possibly live up to this kind of pressure. I cannot keep expecting him to be my everything. He cannot expect it of himself.

[Mamabear]

have you both had "the talk"? Have you authentically shared what you'd like to see to feel loved, and ask him what he needs to see from you as well?

This is something that I plan on doing this weekend when we have time together.

What are some SPECIFIC behaviors on your part would you say that make him feel uncomfortable either being around you or giving you what you need and want?

Probably the biggest is that I am inconsistent. I'll do good for 3 weeks, then I either get impatient or I get the cell phone bill and I go off on him. It's sick and needy, I know. He is probably walking on eggshells around me, wondering if this is the day he walks in the door that I will have a tantrum. Really, when I step outside of myself and look at the big picture I am still very controlling and self-centered. I am all consumed with my feelings and happiness. I want everyone to like me, even at work. This is unrealistic, especially since I don't particularly like everyone. I have to try to find my inner happiness and not rely on others to feel that way. I'm sure it goes back to my childhood of never feeling good enough or living up to my parent's expectations, but people can change, right?

[toughlover]

Hey Mama...sorry it took me so long to get here. Lunch

But something still feels wrong.

Yeah. I think it will for a long time. And I think that's a good sign. It means things are different. You don't recognize them, which means there's a level of openness and honesty there that exposes the void and the various destructive attitudes and behaviors both WAS and LBS used to fill that void. It's really unpleasant but has to be dealt with. Which is why the "patience and time" mantra is so important despite how frustrating it is. There's nothing much to go back to, there's only forward, but the new stuff isn't there yet, and we only get it by building and doing good things right now.

I need to feel that H loves me and is happy that he decided to stay in our M.

No offense, but I think it's what you WANT. What you NEED is the truth no matter what. But once you've got the truth, you can better decide what you want and how to get it. And the way to get it is to give it, but give it only when you're strong, because the trick I think is to get strong (independent, detached) but then come back and love them out of our strength because we WANT to.

Is this something I should talk to him about or is it too soon into our reconcilliation?

Well, sooner or later you're going to talk about it, that's a given. I think that time frame is different for everyone. The trick is not making this a test that they can't pass.

I probably reacted to my sitch 90% wrong and 10% right, and one of the things I did early on (first few days) was to realize that this wasn't about me losing my wife. I had already "lost" her. What I needed to do was "find" myself again, and what I wanted to do was get her back, get us back in a new way. Now, I'm a Christian so for me the only way to "find" myself is to put myself in a right relationship with God. And of course to do that I needed to seek forgiveness for my failures, for my past.

In the end, this is really simply about deciding to turn our eyes to the future and walk together whether we always feel like it or not. It's interesting to me that we freak out over our WAS acting upon their feelings for another person despite their commitment to us...then when they come back, we likewise allow our feelings to dictate our behavior and ruin whatever progress is there. That's normal, I realize, and I think the first sign that our WAS is serious about things is that they forgive us for that just as we are forgiving them for what they've done.

But it can't go on like that indefinitely and expect the M to be healed and rebuilt, just like a M can't be healed while an A is ongoing.

That's why I think it's so necessary to let go of the past. Because of our history with our spouses we have all the expectations for reassurance, etc. But the WAS can't give that cause they don't have it. THEY BAILED ON US! Right or wrong, they may not have much to give anymore, but if they're WILLING to build something new, if we're willing to let go of the past once it's been sufficiently dealt with, then it's all about that. GH rightly points out that in the end, assuming our WAS are willing to recommit 100% and do their part, it's going to be our game to lose. We either just get over it or we don't.

There's a great scene from the movie "The Mission" with Robert DeNiro and Jeremy Irons where Irons is a Jesuit missionary in South America in the 1800s(?) and Robert DeNiro is a slave trader. Irons is there to educate and convert the natives and DeNiro is there to round them up and ship them out.

DeNiro ends up being converted himself and taking vows. As penance for all the crimes he committed against the natives, they bind up all his armor and weapons in a sack and tie it to his waist, then make him climb a really steep rock mountain with all that weighing him down. It is, of course, an outward symbol of his repentance. He struggles toward the top and when he's finally there and can't seem to get any farther, when it almost seems like the bag of armor is going to make him fall to his death, a native draws his knife and cuts the rope binding the armor to DeNiro's waist.

That's forgiveness. Sooner or later that's what we have to do for our WAS who are repentant and willing to climb back up the mountain with us. And the interesting thing is that by releasing them we're really releasing ourselves, too. In the end, that's what love really is.

So far in my life, this is really the hardest thing I've ever had to do because I had to really change who I'd become, just like our WAS have to. Who I am is partially what got me in this mess, and it's so much easier not to change, just walk away, which I now understand is why so many people do just that only to find themselves in a similar mess later on down the road.

[oldtimer]

Mamabear,

I'm very rushed for time, which means even less tact here (yipes) than usual... Anyway, a couple of thoughts.

(1) If you are suspicious, your suspicions are almost certainly right at this point in time. I know of NO case in which the spouse of a DBer broke off all contact with the OP the first time they said they would end things. I don't even think I can think of a case in which they did it the second time they said they would. If you don't believe me, consider that I told the same thing to GH. Lo and behold...

Basically, until you truly set and enforce a boundary here, you can expect continued contact for a good long while. If you really think something is going on, it almost certainly is. And, you can tell the difference between whether you really think something is going on or if you are merely feeling needy for reassurance.

Now, did you go back and tell H that you didn't mean it when you said it was OK for him to talk to OW? (BTW, this is about as far from setting a clear enforceable boundary as you can get )

(2) I agree with Betsy on pretty much everything, but especially this: don't go overboard for thanking H for doing grownup things that a father and a husband should be doing.

(3) My guess is that you not only feel distance, but that you are feeling MORE distance for some reason (perhaps because he has been in contact with OW.) Can you simply share this with him: "I feel some distance between us. I'm not sure what it is about, but it makes me sad."

Stop the eggshell walking ASAP

Best,
Oldtimer

[cat03]

That's forgiveness. Sooner or later that's what we have to do for our WAS who are repentant and willing to climb back up the mountain with us. And the interesting thing is that by releasing them we're really releasing ourselves, too. In the end, that's what love really is.

thanks TL for yet another nugget of wisdom.

I guess us LBS expect so much real soon, still waiting for them to "make it up" to us. It is so very true what TL said in his post, they had nothing to offer when they came back, only their broken selves, my H told me this repeatedly over and over before he came back, that he was empty, had nothing to give me.

H also told me that when I (in the past) brought up stuff from the past he felt unworthy because he still feels low. There is a "sack" they are carrying which we dont' see, we too hurt, but we tend to forget how much it took for them to come back, let's not add to the bag.

It was hard to hug and kiss a man who seemed he could do without both, but i kept it up. Now my H does kiss & hug back, he warmed up to me, and I make sure we kiss whenever he leaves and I hug/kiss him when he comes back.

[toughlover]

let's not add to the bag

Great mantra, cat! I want 50% of the t-shirt sales

[believing_isaiah43]

*MB, I apologize in advance for the hijack! You're getting such great advice, I want to carry it to some more people*

TL, I am SO going to co-opt you and GH as guest stars on my blog with all this insight. He's already given me permission to use his thoughts/essay from last week, and if I had your email I'd ask you the same thing about what you wrote here. I've had this blog since July and have a lot of readers. I think your thoughts would benefit them. Lord knows, they are helping me. Please email me: instepford (at) gmail.com

*end hijack. Please carry on with all fabulous content and advice*