EA, being "friends" with OW, and Boundaries

[inspiredjulie]

Hi Nikki- Sorry you had a bummer weekend. Just remember, this is a rollercoaster and there will be ups and downs. And you did the right thing to vent here when down.

Don't let H suck you into the agreement game. Sometimes I think that WASs are trying to play 'suicide by cop'- they want to push us away or whatever so that they don't have to be the bad guy and we make all the hard decisions.

Do something nice for you. You will easily overwhelm yourself if you start trying to solve everything overnight (where to live, how to exist, etc). Take things one day at a time. Don't pressure yourself to make a decision about your house/living arrangement today. You have time to do that. And start relying on your fam for help. Get your mom on the phone so you can cry on her shoulder. You don't have to bear this burden alone. Take care of you Nikki. Baby steps.

H is a mess right now and needs time. Many people have posted to me to believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.

Thinking of you- Julie

[NikB]

Holly - thanks for the suggestion. I am really torn between "You could be right." and telling him how I truly feel. We've been so bad at communicating for so long, it might be good to be honest. I know not to initiate it and pressure him and such, but for now if he asks again I'm planning to tell him the truth. I'll keep it short and sweet - "Yes, I've thought about it, and in fact I am still in love with you." If he says I'm wrong I'll try the ambiguous answer, but I think I want to try the truth first.

[NikB]

Thanks all so much for your replies. The support means SO MUCH to me.

Once – hope your week is going OK. Thanks for all your thoughts!! I will be doing the same back-and-forth posting/reading thing so my reply may be a bit disjointed too.

The MLC – yeah, I am very nervous about the anger. He’s snapped at me a few times but I don’t see that underlying, nonstop anger. I know exactly what it looks like because I saw it with my dad when I was a kid, but I haven’t seen it yet. It almost seems like he’s harboring this deep seated anger at himself rather than anyone else, at this point. I’m not sure if that’s an MLC “thing” or not. I agree he’s moving towards some kind of crisis. Half of me wants all the good time I can get before then, and half of me wishes whatever “it” is would just happen already so we can start moving on. Not that I can control either one… I guess I need to really learn to understand that. You’re so right about helping him as if he was ill with something like a fever – I just wish I knew HOW to help him. It’s a weird situation when what “seems” right is wrong and vice versa.

Thank you for the egg idea – that’s a good one! I forgot that in college I used to live on hard boiled eggs. I do like them and you’re right, they stay down pretty well. And as an added bonus they’re protein. I can also stomach cottage cheese usually, and today I kept enough food down to also take my vitamins – small victories, right?? I am still making dinner for H and I every night – if he shows up great, if not I try to eat it for lunch the next day. It’s just something that I feel I need to do right now, but I’m giving myself permission to do the “eggs and veggie” dinner if that’s what I feel like doing.

I’m with you on having a hard time thinking for myself too. I keep trying to remember it’s only been 6 weeks or so and allow myself time to “get” this stuff.

About being alone – I hadn’t even thought of it that way but you’re so right!! If he’s so unafraid of being alone why did he find the OW FIRST? I’m doing the same thing as you Once – trying to show that I can make it on my own, at least as much as I actually can. He’s funny about it – seems to resist a lot of times when I do “his” tasks. Maybe he's afraid I'll stop doing his laundry.

[NikB]

Thanks Julie! I’ve always hated rollercoasters…<sigh>. Guess I better strap myself in for this one though. What do you mean by the “agreement game” – did you mean me agreeing that I don’t love him anymore? I totally agree he’s going, at least sometimes, for the “suicide by cop” approach. Although he’s still so back and forth, it’s very weird. One minute I think he’s trying to piss me off so I’ll get fed up and move out, and the next he’s trying to comfort me from being upset, and then the next minute it’s like he’s trying to reignite the fire of our first dates. I know I see/hear so little of what’s going on in his head, I can’t even imagine what’s going on in there given what I do see!

Thank you for the baby steps reminder, too. I am trying to force myself to do at least one “nice to myself” thing for absolutely no reason every day. Even if it’s just sitting on the couch with the dog doing absolutely nothing.

[NikB]

Just a journal/general update and then I’ll try to catch up on all of your threads.

Sunday was a rough day but better than the rest of the weekend. I was actually very proud of myself. I bought a car recently and we were selling my old one (well, more like H was going to sell it for me). He was gone all day and we got a TON of calls on it. Well, my instinct was to tell them all to wait until H could be here, but instead I showed the car, answered questions, set up test drives, and NEGOTIATED THE DEAL (a very good one) all by myself!!! I was a little angry at being put in that position but it was pretty exciting to be able to call H and say “Sold the car – got $100 more than we thought we would.” Today I did all the paperwork and finished up the deal. Granted I was pretty lucky, the buyer was this totally nice guy who helped me through the whole process and wasn’t a ‘tough’ negotiator type at all. But still...I DID it!! H was very proud of me.

I also spilled all of this other stuff to my mom on Sunday. I think she was relieved to finally know - she could tell something was wrong but had no idea what, and thought I was mad at her for something. It went OK for the most part but was weird of course. Mom’s never admitted to herself or anyone else that she did anything wrong in the marriage to my dad, but I see that they both did a lot wrong. In her mind it’s all his fault though. So on the good side she didn’t freak out about H or anything and agrees with me that he’s very kindhearted and a good man - I was glad for that. She’s met the EA/OW and went on a huge tirade about her though, and then started bashing my dad. I told her “This is why I didn’t want to tell you – I didn’t want to give you excuses to bash Dad. I need you to keep your promise not to talk to me about him.” She got pretty upset (with herself I think) but that was the only rough part. She also told me she refuses to NOT bash the EA/OW, will not call her anything but “b!tch” and will confront her if they're ever in the same room again (sigh). I understand her feelings, but it bothers me. Oh well…better than having no one to talk to. I told her I was focusing on fixing myself and told her all the things I thought I did wrong and it was pretty weird to watch her reaction. I wonder if it’s got her thinking about her role in the problems w/my dad even though it’s been a long time. She told me she hated counseling because “They didn’t address any of the problems, just tried to make it all my fault.” Interesting. I told her this was all coming from ME not a counselor, because we haven’t even been yet, and she was really surprised.

I took one small step today that wasn’t exactly fun, but it was just for me and it's helping me breath a little easier. I put together a budget! Before today I didn’t have that much of an idea if I could support myself in the worst case scenario (in spite of me being the main "money person" - we paid off our debts a long time ago and save a lot in our 401(k)s so we didn't budget that closely for the rest). Where could I afford to live, would I have to have a roommate (not a fan of those), what kind of place could I afford, could I take the dog (who I love dearly), etc.? So I did mini-budget with just my take home, and spent about an hour looking at apartments and houses that I’d be able to afford (to rent, or possibly even buy if we sold the house). I actually found 2 apartments and several houses that I liked and could afford easily - I wouldn't even have to cut back my retirement contributions. In fact I figured out that if we refi’d I could afford our current house including someone to take care of the mowing, which is the main physical thing I can’t do. We are paying it down really aggressively w/a 10 year mortgage right now, but if we refi’d to a 20 or 30 year loan it would be totally doable – I could even qualify on my own. We’re in a market where the real estate went nuts and our house value nearly quadrupled so I couldn’t afford it if I had to “buy out” my H unless he took a lot less than half of the market value… but in any case, it was a relief to know that I could survive pretty well on my own. If he really does follow through with this it wouldn't surprise me if H just told me "keep the house" and walked away, and it made me smile knowing I could afford to stay if I wanted. For a minute I let myself fantasize about being a “young single girl on her own” - a role I actually really liked in college, I was VERY independent and loved having my own apartment. It was fun for about 30 seconds and then I got a massive lump in my throat realizing all the things I don’t want to lose about my H and the life we’ve built together, but I still feel better in general knowing that financially I’ll be OK (and if I go, the dog goes with me!).

I don't know if it's good or bad to think like that, but I feel more prepared for the worst case scenario now. My mom and I have similar incomes and she's still struggling to get by 12 years after the divorce, which really had me scared (I wouldn't even feel safe living where she lives). But, my parents had a LOT of debt so I think that's the difference. Whew.

Anyway, off to catch up on other things and other threads but thanks for listening and the ongoing support!!

[inspiredjulie]

One of the comments H made the other night was "You don't honestly feel like you're still in love with me, do you? Aren't you just scared of being alone?"

Nikki- this is what I meant about the agreement game. I have felt like my H has done things he was sure would push me away and make me make the hard decisions so he didn't have to. Don't let your H try to convince you that you feel differently than you do to justify his actions/feelings. My H said to me when we 1st started having problems: 'I'm not happy, don't tell me you are.'

I'm going to read the rest of your post to see if I can address anything else. Just wanted to clear this up before I forgot. Julie

[inspiredjulie]

Just wanted to say... good move on checking out the budget- that has to give you more than a little peace of mind. Wish I were as strong as you. I am afraid to start looking into that. As if it would doom me to worst-case scenario. Too strssful for me. Good job, I'm glad things on that end do look so positive for you.
Julie

[S.T. _I Made It!]

My H said the same thing too during an R conversation. Said something like, you can't tell me your not miserable. I said (before I knew about DB) I didn't even know anything was wrong.

NikkiB... I'm kinda wondering if I'm missing something. Has your H told you he doesn't know if he wants to continue the M? I was thinking this whole time he's just been acting like this OW is the friend he's always wanted, not that he wanted to break up or anything, but you were just preparing yourself in case that ended up happening.

My H showed his anger too. I'm still not sure if he was in MLC, I mentioned that once to him and he acted confused like he didn't think he was in that. However, since he was having an PA, I believe that caused anger towards me. The comment you said about him being intimate the night before and then ignoring you the next morning... that almost seems familiar to me, but just can't remember for sure. It might be because he's feeling confused or guilty. I really hope this is not a sign of any PA, but just be prepared. Even if it gets to that, you can still win.

I still think that you are early in the game, and even though he has talked about how he's never really loved you, (my H said that too) you can still bring that back. He can't understand it now, or just wont understand, but Loving is a choice. What he might be feeling for this OW is just lust, puppy love, a feeling, whatever, but feelings don't last! Eventually that feeling will go away in time, maybe months, maybe days, maybe a year, but it will go away, and then that is the time you have to make a decision- Do I continue to love this person?.

You just have to continue GALing, and PA(? is that right abbr?) so you can show him that he can love you, and that he does love you and wants to love you.

I agree that you should not tell him you really love him. I would just let it go for now. Or you can tell him that you have made the choice to love him.

just my O.

I'm pretty tired, so I'll post later. Have a good week okay. And keep eating. Maybe try to eat yogurt, its reallyl good for you. Buy the Yo Baby stuff, it's organic and is made with whole milk and organic sugar, it's really good. Even though it's whole milk, you need more calories cause your not eating enough, so it won't hurt you at all!

[NikB]

Hi Julie - thanks for your posts! That's what I thought you meant on the "agreement game," I just wanted to be sure. I will have to work on that. It's confusing balancing the DBing with keeping in touch with my own actual feelings.

On the budget thing - I totally understand what you mean about it feeling like I'm dooming myself. I felt that way when I started doing it, but felt SO much better afterwards that I'm glad I pushed through. I still get a little catch in my throat when I realize that 8 weeks ago I had no idea anything was wrong and now I'm figuring out if I can support myself, though.

Last night I ended up driving by one of the apartment complexes that looked promising if it comes to that. They were actually realy nice. I mean, nothing's like living in your own house that you love... but it was comforting to see them and realize I have that option.

[NikB]

NikkiB... I'm kinda wondering if I'm missing something. Has your H told you he doesn't know if he wants to continue the M? I was thinking this whole time he's just been acting like this OW is the friend he's always wanted, not that he wanted to break up or anything, but you were just preparing yourself in case that ended up happening.

Well... he hasn't said that directly, but I kinda took "we never should've gotten married," "I've thought about just running away," and "I don't love you anymore" as him wanting out, or at least considering ending things. But on the other hand he's still trying and still says he'll go to counseling with me, so I am hopeful. I am just so not looking forward to the time in between.

I hope you're right that we're still early in the game and have a chance. He told me the other day that his feelings for EA/OW were "strongest" back in May and June - that's when he tried to distance himself from her and she freaked out, started crying about losing her friend, etc. and he started hanging out with her again (ironic...apparently these techniques work for an OW but not a spouse???). It almost seems to me like he's actually kind of sick of dealing with her neurotic behavior lately, so I am hoping you're right that feelings don't last and he's starting to get over her. He decided to spend the money that was originally earmarked for ski pants and passes on stuff for his car which was a really, really good sign. He's still talking about skiing and stuff but at least he's not locking himself in to season passes at "her" ski resort. She's still trying to guilt him into it though.

I was a bad DBer last night. H asked me if I had told my mom about the situation and I told him yes, and he wanted to know her reaction. I told him the truth and that she was supportive of H and I but that she started bashing my dad - he wanted DETAILS. Wanted to know what specifically she was upst about w/my dad..so I told him, not really understanding why he was asking. Then he hugged me really tight and reassured me he would NEVER do any of those things to me. I also decided to tell him about the budget and apartments, then said kind of jokingly "But don't get your hopes up! It was just for peace of mind." Then asked what he thought about refi'ing the house so that "either of us could afford it if we had to" and he said he'd think about it. Then he told me he already had a plan "if it comes to that" - he's got a friend's house lined up to stay at while he thinks things through, and said he'd help with the bills and house payment and come take care of the lawn. It hurt a little to realize he has a plan - BUT, he kept emphasizing that it would only be while he sorts out what's going on in his mind. He said several times he didn't want us to ever lose our house too. All of that went reasonably OK I think. I am mentally in a much better frame of mind thanks to this place and realize that some sort of controlled or trial separation wouldn't be the end of the world, if it comes to that.

The bad part came in when he decided to tell me about OW's weekend. WHY does he do this to me? I really, really don't give a crap what she did or how she's feeling or any of it. He still wants us to be friends so maybe that's why he thinks I want to know. I try to just let him talk and not reply, but I probably need to figure out some way to divert the conversation when it starts - any ideas???

Anyway apparently she and her married boyfriend spent the weekend together. Sunday, they took their kids to the park to play and while they were there, his W called to say hi to their son. She asked what they were doing and he said "Playing at the park with Daddy's best friend [OW/EA] and her daughter." She's been suspicious before but I think this confirmed that her H is cheating - apparently all heck broke loose at their house Sunday night. I feel for her - hope she can be strong. Instead of biting my tongue I said "Oh my god, that's just brutal." H asked what was brutal and I said "It's bad enough that he's cheating, but bringing the kids into it, and then his W finds out about it from her son????" H agreed it was pretty bad. Then I started crying and said "I wish if you had feelings for someone it was at least someone who wasn't so trashy and takes such pride in breaking up marriages. It makes me sick to think she's hoping we're the next notch on her belt." H was REALLY taken aback by this and asked what I was talking about. I reminded him that every one of her male "friends" is D'd and every single one of those M's started to fall apart when the ex-wives got upset about the friendship with her. He actually told me this 6 months ago back when I was still trying to be friends with her - he was scared because all her friends were D'd and he didn't want to end up like that. Stupid me of course reassured him "I'd never leave you, I love you!" And I didn't see the big red flag waving right in front of my face.

Anyway after I said that he (predictably) started to argue with me and I told him "No, you don't get to rewrite history. YOU were the one who told me that." I reminded him of a few details and it all started coming back to him. He said "Wow, you're right, I had forgotten that." Then he said "Well she doesn't do it on purpose and she's not proud of it like you think." I just said "Well she should be, she's really good at it."

This morning I called to apologize for getting upset last night, and H said it was OK and it was important stuff for him to think about. Then I changed the subject and talked about some fun lighthearted stuff, which he responded to pretty well. My mom and I are going to a concert tonight (which, of course, I will be very dressed up for!) and he asked what time we were leaving so he could be sure to spend a few minutes together first - "at least a hug, in case you get home too late for snuggles!" Melted my heart. Rollercoaster up....<sigh>.

I need to keep in mind - he wants to be married to the independent, happy, positive woman with a life of her own, NOT the one who's isolated, upset, and obsessed with fixing our M. And I need to remember that he'll see EA/OW's trashy nature on his own - it's not my place to point it out. It's just SO hard not to when she makes it so easy.