EA, being "friends" with OW, and Boundaries

[S.T. _I Made It!]

Regarding the backslides... I really don't think they were that bad, could have been way worse. And BRAVO for the excellent weekend!!!

I truely feel that you have a lot going for your situation. If you just stay in the fight and don't give up, you guys will turn things around and next year I bet the OW won't be in the picture. Well, guess not totally since she's a co-worker, but maybe she'll quit or get fired!

Just an fyi, just in case there is some MLC going on, I would be hesitant to give derogatory comments, as in the couch comment. Of course you didn't know that he helped pick it out, but I'm sure you did hurt his feelings and make him think that he has bad taste or something. So, my advice is to just be careful when making a comment on something he is talking about, always try to find the positive in things which will in turn make him want to talk to you about personal things more often.

That was also wonderful and humbling for you to ask him what he would like to have done for the weekend in regards to housework. My H is one of those guys that grew up in a really tidy home, and he HATES it when the house is messy. I think that added on to part of his stress during his A time.

Also, be patient with him, because you have realized that he has had trouble communicating, so if he says something that was offensive, maybe just point out that you would be happy to do it if he asked in a more gentler way or constructive way.

When he made the 2 year comment about the stove... don't worry about that, it's just a little thing in this whole sitch... Now, if he's not doing a fair share of what you expect his household chores should be, then something probably needs to be discussed at some point in time.

Well, I'm glad things are looking up, and that you guys had a great weekend.

I think that everything you mentioned about your new goals, or what works, are all great ideas.

Definitely agree with post about making sure they are PRO-MARRIAGE!!!!!

Talk to you soon,

[NikB]

Astimegoes on - thanks! Yes, I was actually kind of surprised that H's feeling seemed hurt on the couches. I guess we're both learning a little more about each other, these days!

Julie - thanks for the advice. It is so frustrating trying to find a counselor, but hopefully one will work out today. A lot of them wouldn't do a phone "screening" with me - they wanted us to come in for a first session and then would give us the choice to come back or not and wouldn't answer even basic questions via phone...grr. Knowing what a fragile state H is in right now, if we go 1 or 2 "screenings" and he doesn't like them, I don't think he'll keep going back. At least some of them pretty much self-screen. One actually answered the phone with "Divorce Counseling Services, how can I help you?" (I actually found that greeting oddly funny... weird sense of humor these days!). I sent a referral request from the DB home page and they recommended someone local, so if I can't find anything that's paid for via insurance we'll go that route. It's a little surprising to me - her name sounded familiar and I realized it's because she's fairly well known in our community as a lesbian rights activist. She also does a lot of "How to find the right man when you're dating in your 30's" type seminars for women. I dunno, didn't really seem like someone you'd normally see for marriage counseling?? But the DB person who emailed me recommended her highly.

I've been trying to think who else I can ask for referals but I don't like my current doc very much, and I'm not real comfortable asking around at work. We have a friend who's a drug/alchol counselor who could probably recommend someone, but H is very against me talking to her about it so I won't. If you ask most of our friends we're the happiest couple around...<sigh>. Guess I should be glad he's trying to keep that image going, though.

[NikB]

(I'm venturing into using the quotes..watch out world!)

I truely feel that you have a lot going for your situation. If you just stay in the fight and don't give up, you guys will turn things around and next year I bet the OW won't be in the picture. Well, guess not totally since she's a co-worker, but maybe she'll quit or get fired!

Thanks Once! I hope you're right - I'm feeling more positive every day too. EA's actually looking for another job right now. Her "boyfriend" (the married one with the newborn at home) works at the same place and they have a no dating coworkers policy, so she's trying to leave so they can stop "hiding" their relationship. Not that it's hidden AT ALL, but they seem to think it is. I feel awful for the guy's wife, and I know a few of their coworkers who've actually tried to contact her. I stay out of it, but I have generously offered to do anything and everything I can to help her with her resume, submitting applictions online, etc. Aren't I sweet??

Another positive sign today too... for awhile there H was rarely coming home for dinner. He and EA would grab fast food after work, or he'd go over to her house to help her move furniture or paint or whatever, and end up coming home really late telling me he didn't realize what time it was. I used to cook for us every night so it really bothered me. A few months ago, pre-DB, I got frustrated and told him forget it, I was no longer cooking since I kept having to throw it out. A few weeks ago I started making dinner anyway. If H is here we eat together, if not at least I'm taking care of myself better and I just take the leftovers for lunch. So tonight after work he's going over to EA's house to pick up some painting stuff she borrowed, and actually made it a point to tell me that he'd be home for dinner together - wow. And he didn't invite her over either (yet, anyway). This DB stuff is amazing and I'm barely halfway through the book!

Just an fyi, just in case there is some MLC going on, I would be hesitant to give derogatory comments, as in the couch comment.

That's a very good point - thank you. As you mention I didn't know he helped pick it out, but I will definitely be more cautious. I should've picked up on the fact that he apparently really liked them since he brought up the subject. I'll focus on the positives for similar things as they come up. (as long as we don't end up with those same couches in our house... the thought of having "matching" couches with the EA??? ick!!)

My H is one of those guys that grew up in a really tidy home, and he HATES it when the house is messy. I think that added on to part of his stress during his A time.

Sounds familiar!! He also has this thing where if he cleans something once, he expects that it magically never gets dirty again. Case in point being the stove - he apparently thought that since we spent a lot of time cleaning it 2 years ago it'd never get dirty again. At some point we need to address the division of the housework - sorry but mowing and vacuuming every 2 weeks doesn't "make up" for the dishes, laundry, and all the other house cleaning. But for now I'm not pushing at all and just keeping up as best I can. I did notice he's been helping a lot more lately and have been thanking him profusely every time.

Thanks for your suggestion on how to help with him asking me to do something in an offensive (to me) way too. I jump right into defensive mode and I REALLY have to get over that. It's amazing - at work I can easily give someone constructive suggestions for how to do something better, but with H it's like that shuts off. I'm adding that to my goals to work on - calmly asking him to rephrase in a gentler or more constructive way.

Thanks so much for all the posts, support, and advice. It makes a huge difference in how I'm looking at things and has helped tremendously.

[onceuponatime]

Hi Nikki, I wish I could claim all that good advice, but it was from Stilltrying. Not to worry though,I'm sure she'll forgive you too. Your post about your H picking out the OW couch, definately shows some connection between them, that at the very least, is not out in the open. He never shared with you till now that he did that, which is not normal. Normal, would be first, not doing that.... if she has such good taste, she didn't need him to help her. And, if he did happen to help her, he should have told you the day he did it. On the bright side though, if he is willing to see a C go for it immediately. And, my personal choice, would be to go directly to the one recommended by DB, if you can afford it. I am so glad I didn't go take H to the one I used through insurance. It was good for me to start with, because I could talk, and get stuff out. But, her advice was, he's made his decision, you need to get used to it, he wants OW not you, now move on. My H, like many others (and like me before this happened), would rather drop dead than see a counsellor. I felt only weak people needed councellors... he probably still does. There was only once, when my H said he'd go. I was so touched by it, (and I still had my doubts about C's), so I told him if he would read the book After the Affair (the only one I knew about at the time), I thought that would help us. He did read it, but, he wouldn't talk about it. In the end, all he said was that he didn't like being told he he felt or should feel.

I did do the 3 DB phone counselling sessions for myself, after the C sessions my job paid for ran out. I found them very helpful. I still use some of what she told me. I talked with Laurie 3 times. When you make the phone appts, you'll be told what to think about, and the info to have ready, so you can make the most of your time. But, the one thing that I can tell you, that you are already doing, is this: she asked me, what would be the very first things that you would see your H do, that would indicate things are getting better. And, they will be very small things... so for me, it was to sit and look at me when we spoke, and actually respond to me, in a kinder voice. Unfortuantely for me, my H was just reaching the stage where he was withdrawing and getting very angry at me. Nothing I did was going to stop that. So, I saw that slide in the wrong direction, in excrutiating detail. But, it now allows me to see things that are improvements too. They are slow coming, but compared to that time frame, they are there. Of course the last time I actually had a real face to face converation with him was July, so it's hard to tell. If I do get to see him, I'll certainly notice the difference in those small things between now and then. So, I can say, he's out of the Angry phase, and obviously still in the replay phase, as far as I know. Those sessions used to come with a set of tapes to, on Keeping Love Alive. I highly recommend them. I bet you can order them, even if you don't do the phone sessions. They are excellent.

You are in a position now,where you can still try things, and notice those little changes. Like, how often he mentions OW, or how he complenents what you do, or how you noticed his looking hurt. Most of us plow through months hurting so badly ourselves, and not notice those nuances in our H. So, yes, like StillTrying said, you are in a good spot, and doing very well. You have a great opportunity to work on your relationship by being considerate of his feelings, and taking advantage of his willingness to work on communications. A really easy read, if you haven't read it yet, is Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. That is another book that I actualy told my husband stuff from, and he laughed... he said it was very true. Like, men need to go into their caves, and be alone, and we shouldn't bother them when they are in there... you watch, your H will totally agree. we are to leave them alone, not question them, like asking them a dozen time, are you ok? , are you sure? Can I help? You'll enjoy it, and so will he! I promise you. It's about communications bewteen male and female. It's not about OW. It's not deep, but it is useful. .. oh yeah, the author has stuff on women too... you'll say,... hey he's right!. (you can alwasy go browse it at Barnes and Nobles... my library even has a copy.

On that note, I'll leave you for the evening. You are doing so well, please keep it up!

Once

[S.T. _I Made It!]

just a quick note. An idea... for when he helps more around the house and your profusely stating your thanks. Are you doing that just by using your words? Men really respond to action, so maybe do a little massaging or some playful sexual stuff.. have no idea what that would be

anyways, just an idea.

Oh, is it really a good idea to get so close to OW? you know, helping her find a job an all that? I mean, I know what your trying to do, but what we really want is to get her out of your lives as far as possible right? Just a thought to ponder.

okay, have a good week!

[NikB]

Hi Nikki, I wish I could claim all that good advice, but it was from Stilltrying. Not to worry though,I'm sure she'll forgive you too.

Whoops - you're right. Thanks Stilltryin, sorry for the mistake!! Once - still reading through your new post and will reply shortly.

[NikB]

Hi Once - thanks again for the reply (and I'll try to keep everyone straight this time!).

On the couches - yes, I totally agree it shows a connection between them that's not normal. About him not telling me - that's actually partially my fault. Awhile back, before finding DB, I got SO SICK of hearing all about the details of H's time with OW that I asked him to stop talking about her so much. I mean he'd come home and it was nonstop... "C and I had lunch today...C said the funniest thing this afternoon....C and I got coffee after work and she's having a rough time with her H..." Sometimes all we talked about all night was OW and I couldn't take any more. According to H she "tricked" him into shopping for the couches by telling him she needed his help picking them up and then instead she hadn't picked them out yet. Dunno who to believe or if I much care, but apparently their lunches for a week were spent picking out couches. I might believe he was tricked the first day, but the rest of the week???? Anyway I did know he had helped her pick them up, just didn't know the rest of the story til the other day. I am now torn on whether it's better to ask him about her and let him talk about her while I suck it up and "act as if," or if it's better the way it is where I don't hear stuff right away but end up surprised by it later. Of course, my favorite is option 3 where she gets a new job and H is so much happier at home he doesn't pursue the friendship.

On the C - I'm really torn on going straight to the DB one. I know it is probably very pricey, and one of H's main concerns was the cost. We could pay for it on credit and pay it back but we don't have a whole ton of money laying around for it. On the other hand - being happy again is sure worth it (not to mention, a separation or D would be a LOT more expensive). I am making a couple more calls to my insurance covered ones today, but if I don't get a VERY good feeling from them we'll go for the DB one and hope for the best on the money. I wish I had done that instead of that "Marriage Fitness" program, that's for sure - the cost of that could've covered the first few counseling sessions. Sorry that your insurance covered one didn't work out better for you - so frustrating that so many are quick to go the D route.

Thanks for the info about the phone counseling too. I will definitely keep that and the "Keeping Love Alive" tapes in mind.

I'm so sorry that you didn't get to see the positive signs - that had to be rough to try so hard and instead watch the withdrawal continue. I hope that as your H works things through you'll get to see some positives coming out of all your hard work. It is really confusing when you don't know if it's "regular" issues or MLC since the steps from your side are a little different. I wonder if the fact that my actions are helping means that my H is either not having a full blown MLC or at least not a bad one. Otherwise it seems like he'd be withdrawing, the way your H did.

Thanks for the book recommendation too. I can't believe it but I've actually never read Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and I should. H really hates to read (actually we recently figured out he's mildly dyslexic, so no wonder!) - but he likes talking about stuff I've read, so since it's light that could be a good conversation starter. I just got "For Women Only" from Amazon last night and it looks good so far.

You are in a position now,where you can still try things, and notice those little changes. Like, how often he mentions OW, or how he complenents what you do, or how you noticed his looking hurt. Most of us plow through months hurting so badly ourselves, and not notice those nuances in our H.

That is so true. According to H he's been hurting for "years" without me noticing it. I think I was sort of coasting along on auto pilot and wasn't super happy OR unhappy, but apparently I was self absorbed enough not to notice that H was unhappy. In any case I'm glad that he's not so far gone that I can't make any difference, but feel horribly guilty that I missed the problems for so long.

Thank you again for your support and suggestions!!

[NikB]

Thanks Stilltryin - sorry again for mixing you up with Once earlier!!

You have a very good point about how to express my thanks. Mostly it's using words, so I will work on what actions I can take too!

As far as getting so close to OW/EA and helping her find a job etc. No, it's not really a good idea , but I'm in a weird spot right now. Ultimately my goal is to get her out of our lives, but H is definitely not on the same page because she's "just a friend" (and his "best friend" at that), so he wants her around. I still believe it's been only EA and not a PA, so I am able to tolerate being around her even though it's painful.

As it stands now, I have my choice of H going over to her house a lot and not seeing him, I can go over there with him, or he invites her out with us or over to our house. The most difficult for me emotionally is having her at our house, because I end up extremely tense feeling like we are vying for H's attention, or I'm the third wheel while they share their little inside jokes from work etc. Since I'm stuck spending time with "the 3 of us" anyway, it's somewhat better for me to be her 'friend' and help her out with the job search if she's at our house. In the short term it helps me retain my sanity, and in the long term I am hopeful it will get her WAY out of our lives if they no longer work together.

I do notice that since DBing she has been around a lot less and H has dramatically cut back the time he's spending with her after work, so I am pretty excited about that. Last night as I mentioned he went to pick up the painting stuff he loaned her. Usually that means he'd end up "losing track of time" and getting home just before bed time with our dinner in the trash, me angry, and him feeling guilty (but, not guilty enough to quit doing it obviously!). Then there'd be an hour long conversation about all the stuff they talked about or what's going on in her or her roomie's life, with me trying not to be hurt the whole time.

Well, I'm proud to say I totally turned that around last night. H went to pick up the painting stuff which should take, what, 10 minutes? So he should've been home by about 6. 7 came along, he still wasn't home, no phone call, and I felt "that feeling" and the start of our usual pattern. So - I went out and bought myself some cheap but pretty flowers for the table, got my favorite food for dinner, came home, and started cooking. I cooked enough for 2 just in case, but expected that his portion would be my lunch. I put on a dance mix CD, and danced around like a crazy person while I cooked dinner (the "dance like no one's watching" quote kept running through my head). I also decided to pretend I was living here on my own for the night - we haven't talked separation or D, but I think it's important for BOTH of us to see that I could physically make it on my own if I had to. So I did all my chores and also H's - took out the trash etc. He happened to get home about 5 minutes before dinner was done and was really confused. He saw that I'd taken out the trash and thanked me and asked "Were you just trying to help out or..?" - I said "Well, it's trash day right?" and he said yes, but just kept looking confused. He also noticed the flowers, and the light dawned that I'd cooked my favorite food AND hadn't waited to find out when he'd be home. We ate dinner, and afterwards I kept on dancing and working on my chores, while he followed me all around the house and said "Wow, I should've come home sooner!"

Very cool!! I felt like it was a huge victory in so many ways. I turned my mood around, I had FUN, H was happy to come home, and he even regretted spending too long over at OW/EA's house. He actually came home a lot earlier than he had been previously, so that was great too. Hooray!!

Now I just need to keep up the PMA and momentum...nights like that sure make it easier to do!

[S.T. _I Made It!]

Wow That is awesome!!! I wish my H had been as responsive as yours, although mine was in a PA totally so maybe that's the difference.

You know, another idea is to just go out. There were a couple times that I had H babysit kids, and all I did was go shop or to a restaurant and sit at the bar and have a drink. You probably won't need to do that-leave before he gets home when he takes too long- but an option to use if necessary.

That would really confuse him! Might make him mad though, or jealous.

Well, I'm really glad to hear how things are going. My neighbors, whom I thought were perfectly fine, just put up their house for sale and getting a D. I'm like, WHAT????? Please let me give you this book. She's like, no no, I am totally done, I've done everything for 2 months., Ya, TWO months, I'm thinking, there are people on here doing this for 2 years, and their sitch is improving, it took me 6 months! They've been together since 19 years old, for 9 years married 5 with a 1 year old.

I'll probably put a post on here for them and see what anyone says. Made me really sad, and I wasn't even close to them at all.

well, Keep it up! Dancing is miracle pill!

[NikB]

uuuuuuuugghhh yesterday was a bad, bad day and I could really use some advice. I'm operating on about 2 hours sleep so I'll do my best on typos but apologies in advance if I miss some.

Last night we talked on the way home from work as usual - we've been trying to check in with each other just to touch base, but without me pressuring H to come home. H sounded tense and was talking longer than usual, and I finally found out why. Here's how the conversation went:

H: Can C [the EA/OW] and J [her daughter] come over for dinner, or do we have enough? Her roommate isn't home tonight and you know how she is about cooking.

[Backstory: she has never learned to cook and thinks it's "cute" that she can't even boil water. After moving out she'd call her H and tell him what to cook her for dinner, then come get it to take to her house. He quit cooking for her, so she started 'making' her roommates cook for her and her kids - she and her last friend/roommie got in a huge fight about it and haven't spoken since. The woman's power to manipulate people is truly amazing].

Me: it's kinda last minute.
H: She was also thinking about getting a movie.
Me: I already had plans for things to do tonight at home. Give me a minute to think about the dinner thing and call you back, but she can't stay after dinner.
H: They need to eat...
Me: [this was wrong, I know] It's really not my responsibility that she can't figure out how to feed her child or be alone in the house with her. She probably should've thought of that before she moved out.
H: Yeah it's a bad idea, I'm sorry. I'll tell her there's not enough food.

We got home and H was really distant. I apologized for criticizing OW/EA and he said "No you're right, it's ridiculous." Then he told me that he hadn't invited her to dinner, "She just invited herself, like she always does." I told him that it really tears me up to have her over here but that if he could give me some advance notice, I could consider it once in awhile. He said he'd talk to her about it and seemed sort of OK. I told him I was sorry that he was in such a tough position.

20 minutes later, he looked horribly upset again. I didn't ask what was wrong, just gave him a short back rub, and he blurted out "I know this isn't a possibility or anything and it's not OK and I'm not suggesting it but she doesn't have anywhere to go for Thanksgiving." We're hosting Thanksgiving for our families (all 30 of us!) at our house this year - something we usually do and I was glad that he wanted to do again. I didn't respond since it wasn't really a question, but I said again "I'm sorry that you're being put in such a tough position."

He left about 7:30 to go over to his mom's (this was planned in advance, he was dropping off some tools for her to borrow). He was supposed to be back pretty quick. By 10 I started to worry... by 10:30 I called his mom's to make sure he was OK but got no answer. His cell phone was off. I was really worried because he'd been so upset earlier. I drove by his mom's and OW/EA's house and he wasn't either place... started to worry he was in the hospital, in jail, something. It's not like him to not even check in and say "I'm going out for a drive" or something. I wasn't trying to snoop, I was just scared.

I gave up about 11:00 and tried to go to bed, while reality started to set in that I might wake up without him here. He finally got home at 12:30 and apologized. He told me he'd talked to his mom about our situation and that he was glad he had someone to talk to. Then he went for a drive then went to a park to think, and fell asleep in the car, and he didn't mean to be home so late. I thanked him for coming home, and suddenly got really sick to my stomach and ran to the bathroom. I tried to hide it but he heard me throwing up and kept begging me to come back to bed and saying he was sorry he made me sick. When I got back to bed he was surprisingly clingy and wanted to hold my hand and hug me. I told him I was sorry he was so unhappy. I asked him to think about two things - probably a mistake but:

- I feel like OW/EA is really manipulating him and that it's tearing him up. I reminded him how manipulative she is with all the men in her life (coworkers, her H, roommates, etc.) and I was afraid she's doing it to him too. He talks about her being manipulative all the time, so this particular criticism of her comes from him too. I said I didn't expect a reply, but asked him to think back about before she was around and is he really happier with her in his life.

- Asked him to think about anything he wishes I had done differently, so I could work on it for next time.

H slept OK but for me it was a long sleepless night with patches of dozing off a few times. This morning I didn't push him but he told me that I didn't do anything wrong, that there was nothing I should've done differently, and that it was his problem. On his way out the door he said to take care of myself, promised not to scare me like that again, and said ILY for the first time in awhile. On the way to work he called to let me know he had his cell on, he might be going out w/friends tonight depending on how tired he was, but that he'd call me.

Sorry...this got longer than I expected. I could really use some advice on what to do?? Is H right that I didn't do anything wrong?? I am so lost.