Yeah - I have the yes, buts....a lot. Well 2 of 4 major life domains are going well and I am happy about them but.... I have gotten better about this because I have learned to identify my major life roles, what is most important to me about each and to work on that.
Jenny, I am still hot and bothered by your description of a good lover ( the sweetness combined with the raunchiness). It's a toned down version of the alpha male stuff...direct but connected; erotic yet sensitive...and it's perfect. I was going to jump Blackfoot's bones but now I'll jump yours.
The ideal 4 mood thing is a little like that... I'd want someone who could connect with some of the down stuff ( like notice Dad'a not doing so great and doesn't that suck) but then says " hey, lets go to the movies and watch that silly penguin movie." Acknowledge reality, stay connected and then do something fun. H and I haven't been able to master this due to all the mood fusion.
That is definately the crux of the issue - if you are each sucking up the others dysfunctional mood then who will provide hope for a brighter day another day? It takes an ability to step back and take stock of how IHJ really feels, maybe even go take a moment to yourself to regroup so that you can be the one to suggest the silly penguin movie and if he grouses, won't watch you say, "Ok, well that's what I'm going to do."
Quote: BUT-- sometimes I have this thing... and I don't know if it's 4-ishness or not-- maybe IHJ or Karen can verify-- where I feel that I'm not allowed to be happy unless some critical mass of things in my life is going well. So if something great happens at work, but my bills aren't paid yet, I don't have permission to be happy. Or if my bills are paid but the house isn't clean, same thing. Or if my bills are paid and the house is clean, but my roots are showing... see what I mean? There's always something to dilute the moment of happiness. Often the sex thing is the one thing that I look at and say "everything is fine except for THAT" when I can't find anything else to be unhappy about.
Your H may feel in his 4-ish way, that as long as he hates his job, he doesn't have permission to be happy, kwim? He may have an internal voice that says if you're unhappy about something as big as your job, then it would be hypocritical to act happy about something else. I know this is very un-7 thinking. Sevens are very big on distracting themselves from misery that is right in their faces. But to a 4, if you're unhappy, to act happy feels dishonest. Don't tell me how selfish this is-- we've been down that road. Just trying to give some insight.
Oh, that is definitely the case with my H. We have discussed the disconnect/dysfunction that we suffer due to his tendency to be irrationally negative and my tendency to be irrationally optimistic. His equation goes something like I hate my job therefore I am unhappy, I believe that sex should be a "celebration" therefore I can not be sexual until I get a better job. If I hated my job, my equation would go something like I hate my job yet I want to be happy therefore I better get me something that will cheer me up like sex. It's not that I really disagree with his notion that sex should be a "celebration", it's just that the prospect of sex is enough to get me in a celebratory mood even if I have a cr*ppy job.
Also, knowing my H as I do, I am WELL aware of the fact that he has, as you described, a virtually endless list of problems that will sink his mood. His job just happens to be #1 at the moment. For instance, I know that #4 or 5 on his list is the fact that he suffers from ringing of the ears, a condition for which there is no real cure. So, if I were to make like a hamster and try to ride the wheel of "cheering him up", first I would have to solve a problem that is not mine (his job) and then eventually I would have to solve a problem that can't be solved. This is why I have determined that trying to cheer him up is a very cheeseless tunnel approach for me. Though I should note that I do try to be empathetic even in the face of surly comments such as "Obviously there is nothing you can do, so why don't you just go away.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Jenny, I am still hot and bothered by your description of a good lover ( the sweetness combined with the raunchiness). It's a toned down version of the alpha male stuff...direct but connected; erotic yet sensitive...and it's perfect. I was going to jump Blackfoot's bones but now I'll jump yours.
LOL. Well, I do have a bisexual baby sister who is just like me except miniaturized and amped up. Interestingly, I have no desire to jump Blackfoot's bones, instead I was kind of thinking that he'd make a good match for my high-functioning Type 9 daughter some day if he was about 10 years younger, which is really a much higher compliment.
Quote: The ideal 4 mood thing is a little like that... I'd want someone who could connect with some of the down stuff ( like notice Dad'a not doing so great and doesn't that suck) but then says " hey, lets go to the movies and watch that silly penguin movie." Acknowledge reality, stay connected and then do something fun. H and I haven't been able to master this due to all the mood fusion.
I do try to do this with my H but it doesn't work. His response to the "silly penguin movie" suggestion would be something like "I don't feel like we should be enjoying ourselves in that manner when I have job search work to do so I'll just lie in bed and do nothing instead.". I think this is because his male oppositionality and his Type 4 negativity team up in a most unfortunate way. What would work much better would be for me to offer the empathy and then say "Well, I hope you feel better later. I think the kids and I will go check out that new penguin movie.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Thanksgiving went quite well. My H and I were functioning really well as a team all day. So, I asked myself "Why?". A vision came to me of who my H's ideal woman (the woman he would pursue) would be and what I have in common with her and how we differ. I think his ideal woman would be the Ione Skye character in the movie "Say Anything". I think it was interesting that LP pointed out that Type 7s raise their functioning by moving in the direction of Type 5. When I take the enneagram test, Type 5 is my strong second place. My H is more likely to "pursue" me when I am high-functioning but subdued, acting more Type 5-like.
Therefore, I am starting to think that my share of the problems in our marriage might have to do with low self-esteem (my belief that I can't be the Iona Skye character because she is much better than me) and sexism (I see the Iona Skye character as being more "Alpha" and therefore more masculine than the John Cusack character.).
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
The other thought I've had is that maybe I really am more of a Type 5 which is a hard type for a woman to be (the phrase "bluestocking" comes to mind) so the way I learned to function at adolescence, sexually and socially, was to act like a Type 7. There is a clear specific behavior link here for me in terms of my fluctuating desires to either dye my hair blonde or let it return to its natural color. When I dye my hair blonde, it's like I'm putting on more of a Type 7 costume for my life because I'm anticipating situations that will require more extroverted, upbeat behavior. When I return to my natural color, I am anticipating situations that require more reserved or studious, less social or sexual behavior. Right now I am feeling a stong desire to return to my natural color and a very basic cut like a bob. This is linked with a desire to simply remove "Improve sex life" from my To Do List and move some things like "Start breeding Dahlias" and "Learn more about options trading" (which reflect the Type 5 concerns of science and greed) higher up my list.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I strongly identify with the idea of taking "improve sex ife" off the list in favor of other things. However, my current set of interests is running in a more me, me, me direction. Like, "start meditating for 20 minutes every night", "buy a sex toy and get myself off every day", "get back on exercise program", "improve diet", "find a few girlfriends to hang out with" and "do some decorating in the house without checking with H". I am familiar with this set of feelings. This is my getting very pregnant thing. I'm not quite to the grumpy pregnant phase but I am in the insular pregnant phase - I am inner focused, focused on my own (and baby's) health and well being and ridiculously horny. Since I'm into myself for the moment I don't feel inclinded to wheedle sex out of H, I feel inclined to do it myself. Let me know how those dahlias turn out.
MJ, your H is at the dysfunctional end of the 4 spectrum. When I get into one of those 4 funks I hate myself and feel embarrassed even while I can't get out of it. So that's another reason why you should empathize from a distance. Let him deal with it on his own-- it's not about you-- it's an existential angst that you can't cure. To focus on it not only doesn't fix it, it embarrasses him further and permits him to dig in deeper. I'm relieved when my bf doesn't focus on my mood but just seems understanding from a distance.
And get this: he wouldn't be happier with any other kind of woman either. Really. His unhappiness comes from inside of HIM, but he is too dysfunctional to see this, so he will ultimately blame his unhappiness on whomever he's with, including Ione Skye, okay? It's not you.
I'm a 4 who has been in at least FIVE long term (defined as 3+ years) relationships (plus having had seven other shorter-term lovers AND I was a virgin until age 21), and I can tell you that I keep having the same problems with and same complaints about my partners over and over again. After 30+ years of therapy, I've finally figured out that it's ME not THEM.
Let this sink into your psyche, honey-- it's not you. He is at the dysfunctional end of the 4 spectrum!
Re the 5-- I think you're missing the point on the 5. The 5 may or may not be frumpy or dowdy or shy. The key characteristic of the 5 is that s/he is the SCIENTIST. The 5 thinks that the world can be made to make sense with more information, knowledge, investigation, objectivity, order. Think table of elements, or classification of plants and animals. The 5 wants to sort things out and make sense of them. She can do this while dressed in gray sweats at the library, or while wearing a sequined miniskirt at a bar.
This is how one of my Enneagram books describes what it looks like when the 7 moves toward the positive side of 5:
-They become quieter and more introspective and objective -They explore subjects in depth and place more value on wisdom and self-discipline -They become more accepting of both polarities of life: good and bad, happy and sad -They become more serious and are taken more seriously -They get in tough with their fears
[This is very much in keeping with your FlyLady approach to housework, for instance.]
When 7's move toward the negative side of 5
-They push their theories onto people -They become more self-absorbed and escape responsibilities.
Note on sources: Are you working with any Enneagram books or just using the tidbits we've discussed on this site, or the Enneagram Institute site? The Enneagram is a huge and very fertile system of thought. A quick book for an overview is The Enneagram Made Easy by Baron and Wagele. Suggest you get this one and use it for quick reference. A much deeper one (that's out of print) is The Enneagram of Liberation by Eli Jaxon-Bear. A good middle one is by Riso and Hudson... it's called The Wisdom of the Enneagram (I think-- it's lost somewhere here in my office-- it's a large blue paperback). Later books by Riso and Hudson are good. Early ones by them are not so good and avoid anything by Riso alone-- poorly written and poorly edited.
