I don't really want a lot of actual cuddling before sex either. When I talk about fearing getting "f*cked" without the "cuddling" in a casual encounter, I'm referring more to a general sense of emotional intimacy and good feeling not some sort of need for a Teddy Bear in bed. For instance, I had a lover who would frequently cook for me after sex. To me that is "cuddling". "Cuddling" might also be making an effort to make me laugh during a conversation before sex or making an effort to give me that breasts-only orgasm during sex. I totally agree with you guys that really being wanted is the biggest turn on of all but I think we would all agree with the LD gals that you want to have that feeling that it is sex with YOU that he wants, not just the sex. IMO, the "cuddling" or validation or oxytocin buzz is what gives you that feeling.
It's interesting to note that I get conflicting messages from my Type 4 H regarding how "strong" he wants me to come on. One time I'm too assertive, not vulnerable enough, the next time I'm not assertive enough, too vulnerable. I think the Type 4 in him wants the aggression but the male in him wants more vulnerability or something like that. Basically, I give up.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Mojo from cobra's thread. Well, this isn't completely true. I did want to start up the "Sisters of Mercy Sex" charity because I felt so sorry for many of the men on this BB.
Ive never put you in the "people in general' category that I referred to in my post. Do you? LOL. siters of mercy sex. Hmmm. I like it. I can donate funds to my favorite charity, instead of pay for a service, and that means I can count it as a tax write off!!!! Mojo, your a genius. Do they give reciepts?
I think anytime you're seeing somebody as a victim or a villain in a mutually agreed upon by adults situation such as modern marriage, you need to question your perspective.
well put.
If desire is nothing but the search for value and validation then what is love?
Love is a choice. Desire is a value/validation power struggle. speaking of which, I found my desire again. Caroline Kluft thou art my Valkyrie. LOL.
We gain power or strength as we let go of control or we let go of control as we gain strength and power
I think as we gain real strength and power over ourself, and confidnance in our abilty to get what we want, (self validate) we stop trying to control others. Its when we are afraid of not having (fillintheblank) that we try to 'fake' demonstrations of our power, by trying to control others.
For example the neophyte martial artist has to show off/demonstrate his power/ seeks out situations to prove his worth. The wise master, knows what he knows, and doesnt have to prove it to anyone. (actually he has allready proven it and so has Value.) As long as he remains in a group where he is known, he doenst have to prove himself any longer- to the group. Respect. He may be called upon to use his power though.
Another situation would be sexual proficiency. You go thru a period learning how/what to please a woman. But once you have learned, its important to stop 'trying' and just incorporate doing the appropriate actions, into your 'selfish' desire, because that is what she really wants to feel. Your no longer 'trying' to make her cum, which mostly weirds them out. or even expecting her too- in the vacumm of your 'leading the way', which negates her femininity. (yes I know many women have no problem getting there own. This is directed at those with LDW.)
she simply does as a reaction to your energy/desire. Thats how she is designed. She feels pleasure from you 'taking' what you want- in the context that you are doing it in a way that is cognizant of her unique and differant from mens, physical makeup/needs.
Therefore, my new definition of "love" is that it is whatever binds you to the relationship through cycles of miserable desire (feeling one down) and angry disdain (feeling one up).
Nice. There it is. your choice. Which gives you all the power you need. Interesting emotional referance. Hopefully you have positive emotions tied to both of those states also...
Is it possible to be one up without angry disdain? I dont recollect ever feeling that. Oh wait yes I did. When x turned into a no perspectvie control, flip flopping, indecisive cheater. That kinda pissed me off.
This is only cursorily related, about your Machivellian remark, but Machivelli was simply observing and relating certian dynamics he observed in human relationships. Mostly political. He didnt approve of them, and thought correctly -IMO- that those sorts of power manuevers- that have come to be associated with his name- while real, and very effective, are ultimately self destructive and hurtful to the greater good.
The end does not justify the means.
Ok stuff from your thread. Basically, I give up. <snort> Why would you do that when you have been having success, by being your true self?
When you stand up for yourself, are calm cool collected humourous, and fight back you always receive a positive reaction from your H. Thats who you were, who you are and what he loves about you. When you dont put up with his 'crap' behaivior, whether that means calling him a fastidious pr!ck, or obliquely telling your son not to act like a jerk, like his father. It works for you every time to set those boundaries. Your H wants you to 'toughen up' or be the woman he sees you as when you realate to OP besides him. KWIM? When he is a d!ck and you personalize it, burst into tears, he gets . What happend to confidant Mojo?
Fight back, while being supportive. "yep your job is really crappy sometimes. What are you(we?)going to do about it?.'
You showed him where confidant Mojo was when he tested you with the cleavage comments. Nice boundary, nice job on not being reacitve, and you got a positive reaction and a deserved apology.
Ive been thinking about the GAL topic myself. I think most people use the GAL idea to cause there SO to desire them or create jealousy. Essentially that makes it a seeking approval activity. Not going to work. People who GAL for themselves are attractive because they are HAPPY with what they are doing and who they are. They are just being and doing things that satisfy themself and not looking for external approval of what they are doing. GAL will not cause OP/SO to desire you. It is taking care of yourself, and fullfilling your own needs. Doing that gives you a PMA and healthy vibe, and a confidant aura. That is what makes the person who HasALife attractive.
Since you were talking about health and walking, I wanted to share some quotes with you. Extrapolate what you want.
Walking is man's best medicine. -Hippocrates Walking is the best possible exercise. Habituate yourself to walk very far. -Thomas Jefferson The sovereign invigorator of the body is exercise, and of all the exercises walking is the best. - Thomas Jefferson
. . .When I am, as it were, completely myself, entirely alone, and of good cheer - say traveling in a carriage, or walking after a good meal, or during the night when I cannot sleep - it is on such occasions that my ideas flow best, and most abundantly. Whence and how they come, I know not, nor can I force them... - Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
I don't really want a lot of actual cuddling before sex either I dont think you are a unique female in this. This used to be a self limiting belief of mine. I knew women wanted reassurance after sex, I thought they needed 'cuddling' prior to sex too. Nope. Show her your desire and get to it. Showing desire is differant then needing her validation/ approval/ being needy. To be blunt 'Im going to F*ck you senseless' appears a lot differant then 'I want to have sex with you. Is that OK?'
Really hard to implement if you have a fear of rejection.
There is a lot more to comment on your comments, and you can take the biology/ value/validation/ chemical causants to a really basic level, Nerd. It doesnt change the required actions, or make you any happier knowing though. Gotta think about something though.
Quote: I can donate funds to my favorite charity, instead of pay for a service, and that means I can count it as a tax write off!!!! Mojo, your a genius. Do they give reciepts?
Unfortunately, I do not think you would qualify for our services being single and apparently able to get sex for free on the open market. However, if you would like to volunteer to be one of the "Brothers" in our male wing, I will be happy to send you an application. You can save some time filling it out if you just cut&paste what you wrote about sexual proficiency above into the essay section. Thank you for your interest.
Quote: I think as we gain real strength and power over ourself, and confidnance in our abilty to get what we want, (self validate) we stop trying to control others. Its when we are afraid of not having (fillintheblank) that we try to 'fake' demonstrations of our power, by trying to control others.
That is exactly what I was trying to communicate. When my H went into his "I hate my job" fit, it freaked me out because he has actually quit jobs in the past after having fits of this nature. Clearly, this has sucked for me because of my financial interdependence on him and the fact that we have two children who are financially dependent on the two of us. So my initial reaction was to want to talk him "down" or "out of" his fit although this has never been a highly successful action for me in the past. It pretty much has always resulted in me feeling resentful because I end up taking on too much responsibility for his career or happiness in general. However, new and improved and thoroughly enlightened (LOL) Mojo decided not to go there. I felt my urge to control or "fix" the situation and my H and resisted doing it. I did this by basically feeling out my true boundaries on the issue. I had a moment of clarity in which I realized that my true or natural boundary on this issue was found exactly at the line created by my own income. My own income defined my ability to provide and protect myself and my children in the event that my H quit his job. Any action I took beyond this boundary would be an act of control. Any advance I allowed my H to take through this boundary would be a free will act of charity. Therefore, the suckiness of my H quitting his job was limited to the suckiness of some basic facts like I can't afford to pay the mortgage/upkeep on our big house on my income alone and my kids will probably have to take out some student loans to pay for college. By giving up my emotional urge to control the issue I was able to reduce it to a set of practical problems which didn't seem all that insurmountable. So the next time my H said " I want to quit my job.", I simply said "Fine. You do what you want and I'll do what I want. I'll call my realtor friend and put the house up for sale on Monday.". This, of course, dismayed my H to no end. A few hours later he approached me and said "I'm afraid that I'm going to emerge from my current bad mood and find that everything has changed. Will you please not take any action until I'm feeling better.". Now I know that it might appear that I was being "controlling" since in some sense I "won" the argument and therefore I must have been working towards "controlling" the outcome but I don't think this is true. I was really ready to put the house up for sale because I had accepted my lack of control over my H. In fact, I am still considering selling the house for the same reason someone might consider selling some stock holdings and converting to bonds in a volatile market. I am afraid of losing equity if I have to sell the house really fast because my H bails on me financially in some way.
Clearly, the reason my H became dismayed when I made my comment was because he was hoping to control me emotionally in the same way he felt like I might try to emotionally control him. We were both suffering from feelings of "If he/she loved me, he/she wouldn't do this or act this way.". The interesting thing to note is that my H was probably making the assumption that my intention was to dump him along with the house when really I hadn't made that decision. It is quite possible that I would have freely chosen to give him the "gift" of financial support for a while even though I was dead certain that I wasn't going to "lend" it to him since I knew that was a one way ticket down Resentment Highway.
Quote: Basically, I give up. <snort> Why would you do that when you have been having success, by being your true self?
Okay, I was feeling like cr*p when I wrote that because I was feeling sorry for myself because ever since my Grandmother and Father died 5 years ago, I am like the freaking matriarch of my extended family and around the holidays I begin to get the strong feeling that I have a bajillion dependents (some of whom are very helpful type dependents, I will admit) and nobody upon whom I can depend- no back to lean on. There is something in me that wishes that my H would fill this role on occasion but he is utterly unwilling. When I said something to him about the holidays, just looking for a little bit of support, his reply was along the lines of "I hate the holidays. Let's just not celebrate them this year.". Where, oh Where, is Hank when I need him? I want some sort of stolid husband type who will say things like "You always throw such a wonderful Christmas party and everybody enjoys themselves so much. I'm sure you'll do a great job again this year. How can I help?". I wish there was a website on which I could chat with men willing to provide this type of service. Perhaps, I should start one. I will call it SupportiveAdultFriendFinder. I will match myself up for the holidays with some guy who has a wife who is unwilling to cook a turkey. I will lend him instructions and messages of good cheer as he attempts to do it on his own. It will bring sentimental tears to my eyes when he reports back about how timy Tim said "Daddy, thank you for making the yummy turkey." and how much fun little Sue had putting together the mini-marshmallow and apple turkey centerpiece. (Note: I am also able to provide services of this sort appropriate to more health-conscious bi-coastal types such as yourself. I know how to make ToFurkey and divert conversation away from contentions topics such as the exploitation of the Native Americans vs. the value of traditional holiday celebrations.)
Quote: Ive been thinking about the GAL topic myself. I think most people use the GAL idea to cause there SO to desire them or create jealousy. Essentially that makes it a seeking approval activity. Not going to work.
This is true. It's confusing however because the only difference is intent and you have to pretty aware or self-aware to sniff out the intent of the actions of others or yourself. One really scary book about the brain that I read indicated that a whole lot of our actions are actually performed without conscious intent. The hand reaches out for the cookie even before the brain cells fire the message " I want a cookie". One of the personal growth exercises for Type 7s like me is to "just not do" until you can decipher intent.
Quote: 'Im going to F*ck you senseless' appears a lot differant then 'I want to have sex with you. Is that OK?'
Really hard to implement if you have a fear of rejection.
The whole Alpha Male behavior being more of a turn-on is quite true, however I think there is a way out of the conundrum you mention. I think most women are turned on by the direct, strong approach but not necessarily an approach that is uniformly that way. For instance, many female erotica tales are of the "stranger in the dark alley" ilk but how many women really want to be sexually manhandled by a stranger in a dark alley? You could do a scientific experiment and find out if you are okay with mace in the eyes and jail time. I think what women really like, what really turns them on, is the contrast between sweet and strong in a man. For instance, give her flowers and a puppy and then tie her to the bed or gently hold her hand under the table at a boring social gathering but whisper all your nasty thoughts in her ear (a guy I hadn't slept with yet actually did this to me one time and I am surprised that my chair wasn't actually wet when I got up) or do a Mock Croatian Rape scene and then gently zip up her skirt and kiss her on the forehead. I guarantee that any man who follows this advice will only suffer from the sexual problem of dealing with all his ex-girlfriend's stalking him.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Okay, I was feeling like cr*p when I wrote that because I was feeling sorry for myself because ever since my Grandmother and Father died 5 years ago, I am like the freaking matriarch of my extended family and around the holidays I begin to get the strong feeling that I have a bajillion dependents (some of whom are very helpful type dependents, I will admit) and nobody upon whom I can depend- no back to lean on. There is something in me that wishes that my H would fill this role on occasion but he is utterly unwilling. When I said something to him about the holidays, just looking for a little bit of support, his reply was along the lines of "I hate the holidays. Let's just not celebrate them this year.". Where, oh Where, is Hank when I need him? I want some sort of stolid husband type who will say things like "You always throw such a wonderful Christmas party and everybody enjoys themselves so much. I'm sure you'll do a great job again this year. How can I help?". I wish there was a website on which I could chat with men willing to provide this type of service. Perhaps, I should start one. I will call it SupportiveAdultFriendFinder. I will match myself up for the holidays with some guy who has a wife who is unwilling to cook a turkey. I will lend him instructions and messages of good cheer as he attempts to do it on his own. It will bring sentimental tears to my eyes when he reports back about how timy Tim said "Daddy, thank you for making the yummy turkey." and how much fun little Sue had putting together the mini-marshmallow and apple turkey centerpiece. (Note: I am also able to provide services of this sort appropriate to more health-conscious bi-coastal types such as yourself. I know how to make ToFurkey and divert conversation away from contentions topics such as the exploitation of the Native Americans vs. the value of traditional holiday celebrations.)
Get your H involved and ask him to deep fry the turkey. It is quite delicious, it is one less thing for you to cook and worry about, and men like doing this because it is a little bit dangerous with a small but real chance of burning the house down. While I am being a bit facetious, it may in fact be a good idea.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
Quote: Get your H involved and ask him to deep fry the turkey. It is quite delicious, it is one less thing for you to cook and worry about, and men like doing this because it is a little bit dangerous with a small but real chance of burning the house down. While I am being a bit facetious, it may in fact be a good idea.
LOL. He probably would enjoy it since he is a bit of a pyro. Making the fire is his favorite part of camping. However, I don't think that my Grandma's special stuffing recipe would come out too well from the deep fryer. Besides, I'm really not stressed out because I need practical help. I've got that all under control. I am just feeling like it's up to me and me alone to put the "Happy" in the Happy Thanksgiving and the "Merry" in the Merry Christmas. I'm feeling like Mrs. Santa Claus with no Santa. Actually, to give my H some credit, I know he will be a sprightly elf type host, serving eggnog and joking with all the kids, when it comes to the actual day of the events.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I'm curious...if he is being the elf, and you don't need practical help, then specifically what is it you want from your H?
If your H fried the turkey, he would be the star of the show. Does that idea bother you? Does it irk you that he would get a lot of credit for just standing in front of the fryer when you're the one who made the whole day really happen?
P.S. You bake the stuffing separately.
Also, once you get that fryer going, the temptation is to drop anything and everything into it. Try using an old fashioned potato peeler to make thin strips of sweet potato-- yummy fries! We also put in banana slices, and little turnovers (really small) with apple filling. The hot oil is very bubbly and will break up anything large.
Quote: I'm curious...if he is being the elf, and you don't need practical help, then specifically what is it you want from your H?
Oh, probably nothing that doesn't reek of fusion . I just don't want him to say things like "I hate the holidays." or "We don't have a happy family life. That's just your delusion." because it bums me out.
Quote: If your H fried the turkey, he would be the star of the show. Does that idea bother you? Does it irk you that he would get a lot of credit for just standing in front of the fryer when you're the one who made the whole day really happen?
No, that's really not it at all. Maybe the turkey fryer would be a good plan for next year (though I truly believe that the stuffing that is roasted in the bird is better than the stuffing baked on the side). I am happy to delegate or accept offers of assistance for most holiday tasks. For instance, my Type 2 MIL will bring the pies since she's an expert pie baker (and does crave that sort of attention/credit-LOL) and my Type 9 daughter likes to decorate the house.
Probably what I really need/want is to have a 4 year old who believes in Santa around the house to cheer me up. Which probably means that what I REALLY need is to get in touch with my own internal 4 year old who believes in Santa. Once I do that I can just ignore cranky old Scrooge because I'll be too busy decorating cookies (or perhaps holiday protein bars ), building snow people, admiring light displays and rereading Dickens. Gee, I feel better already! I am so easy.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It just occurred to me that maybe all the problems in my marriage could be summed up by my belief/feeling that I am not "allowed" to be happy in this relationship because my H is an unhappy person. Which really means that my problems with this relationship are due to the fact that I let his level of unhappiness affect my emotional state too much both directly (he's bummed so I'm bummed)and indirectly (I become like a hamster on a hamster wheel working endlessly in an attempt to cheer him up). I need to realize that I can't let him control my emotional state and I shouldn't try to control his emotional state. This is as relevant to sex drive as it is to Christmas cheer. Though once again I am stuck with the conundrum of the fact that it is socially acceptable to build snow people and bake cookies with people other than your spouse but not to have sex. Hmmm.... the more I think about it the less this seems like a good rule.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
__________________________________________________________ It just occurred to me that maybe all the problems in my marriage could be summed up by my belief/feeling that I am not "allowed" to be happy in this relationship because my H is an unhappy person. ___________________________________________________________
My H is more variable in his level of happiness than your H sounds but I have often felt this way. The thing is that it is empathy not sympathy that we need from loved ones. We need to accept their feelings but not actually feel them ourselves. Many of we nurturing/helping types mix that part up. The question is - What does it take for you to be happy in the face of your H's unhappiness?
Quote: It just occurred to me that maybe all the problems in my marriage could be summed up by my belief/feeling that I am not "allowed" to be happy in this relationship because my H is an unhappy person.
This is very insightful. Apart from the "allowed" part, it is very difficult to keep on being cheerful when you're around a sad/depressed/cranky person.
My late H was depressed, although not mean and cranky about it-- still it was a challenge to keep on being upbeat. I remember one time sitting at the table reading aloud from a Dave Barry book and just cracking up. I was practically in tears from laughter and my H just sat there looking at me, as if to say, "nothing you say can cheer me up." Now, as a 4, I'm NOT one to try to cheer someone up-- believe me-- it's just that Dave was so freakin' funny. Later when my H got on A-D's, got into pottery, and the museum work and was feeling better, he recalled that night to me and apologized for just sitting there while I was so clearly having fun with Dave Barry.
Which led to my maxim: Living with a depressed person is like trying to play with a dead dog. No matter how many times you throw the ball that dog just won't run.
Your H's mopey-ness and attempts to drag you down to his mood level is the kind of thing that gives 4's a bad name.
BUT-- sometimes I have this thing... and I don't know if it's 4-ishness or not-- maybe IHJ or Karen can verify-- where I feel that I'm not allowed to be happy unless some critical mass of things in my life is going well. So if something great happens at work, but my bills aren't paid yet, I don't have permission to be happy. Or if my bills are paid but the house isn't clean, same thing. Or if my bills are paid and the house is clean, but my roots are showing... see what I mean? There's always something to dilute the moment of happiness. Often the sex thing is the one thing that I look at and say "everything is fine except for THAT" when I can't find anything else to be unhappy about.
Your H may feel in his 4-ish way, that as long as he hates his job, he doesn't have permission to be happy, kwim? He may have an internal voice that says if you're unhappy about something as big as your job, then it would be hypocritical to act happy about something else. I know this is very un-7 thinking. Sevens are very big on distracting themselves from misery that is right in their faces. But to a 4, if you're unhappy, to act happy feels dishonest. Don't tell me how selfish this is-- we've been down that road. Just trying to give some insight.
. What happend to confidant Mojo?
