Quote: There ARE techniques and tips that would help him, but one runs up against another trait of his: he won't be told what to do by anyone. Even if it was something he was planning on doing anyway, if someone tells him, then he will stop dead in his tracks and put it off. Not just stuff I tell him-- because I tell him very little along the lines of what to do.
That's because "Give me liberty or give me death" is one of the Type 7 mottos. What I might suggest is that you offer to "trade" function with him. For instance, say "How 'bout we clean out my shed this morning and then this afternoon we could clean out yours?". That way he will feel neither put upon or obligated.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
This weekend I read the book "You On A Diet" which attempts to aid dieters by giving them a simplified scientific lesson on how the biochemistry of appetite and the anatomy of digestion works based on current research. The thinking behind the book is that if you understand how your body/brain works then you can develop habits and coping skills that will make you better able to achieve and maintain a healthy weight.
It was interesting to me to learn about the ways in which sexual desire and hunger or appetite are similar. They are both to some extent controlled by the brain chemical NPY which affects the hypothalamus. The author's of the book go so far as to recommend regular, monogamous sex as a weight loss method since satisfying one appetite does actually seem to satisfy the other by reducing the levels of the chemical NPY in the brain. (Thus validating all the food as sex analogies that we use on this BB-LOL).
Anyway, reading this book made me start to think more about the biochemistry of sex and I did some very cursory research on the topic and discovered some interesting things (I'd be thrilled if any of the real scientist types on the BB could correct my errors or fill in any blanks). Basically, I was trying to understand my own typical bad reaction in the past to being sexually neglected/rejected on the level of biochemistry.
A typical bad situation for me in the past would be that a couple weeks would go by without my H initiating sex. After a couple weeks I would feel compelled to initiate myself. Sometimes this would be successful but often I would be rejected. When I was rejected I would frequently cry. My H wouldn't comfort me when I cried and I would feel worse and cry even harder. Finally, I would self-soothe and end up in an emotional state in which I was calmly thinking "I have got to get out of this relationship.". At this point of the interaction, my H would frequently choose to initiate sex. Over the long run, this left me with the belief that my H was somehow turned on by my crying which I found quite dismaying.
Okay, so what was happening to me biochemically? I have found that it is almost a rule of order with me that I will initiate sex if it's been two weeks since I've had it. Biochemically, it is probably the case that my hormonal cycle works to convert excess estrogen to testosterone in a two week cycle. Once the testosterone builds to a high level, I naturally adopt a more masculine behavior and feel compelled to initiate sex rather than waiting around for someone to f*ck me. This makes sense since testosterone is a chemical that makes people feel like being more proactive generally. The byproducts of testosterone lead to feelings of stress (supplementation of testosterone often leads to rage incidents). So being sexually rejected when you are experiencing high levels of testosterone and it's byproducts will make you feel stressed out or angry. However, since I am a woman, I am readily able to release stress hormones by crying (Men simply have less of an anatomical ability to do this. However, they are better able to release stress hormones through sweat.). Unfortunately, the problem with crying in my situation is that the biochemical/social purpose of crying is that you are releasing prolactin in your tears in order to attract another human being to you who will give you physical touch and thereby raise your oxytocin levels. If you cry and nobody touches you, you are left in a bad state in which your oxytocin levels and your prolactin levels are low. You feel unloved and unsatisfied. Therefore, when I got into this state it was natural for me to have the thought "I need to get out of this relationship." which was really me thinking " I need more sex and affectionate touch" which was really me experiencing low prolactin and oxytocin levels.
Another interesting note about prolactin is that studies have shown that prolactin levels are 4x higher after sex than after masturbation. Obviously, oxytocin levels should be higher after sex too since they are linked to human touch. This is why the HD guys on the BB find themselves crying on the massage table the rise in oxytocin levels allows them to release prolactin through tears or something like that. This makes me wonder about all the kinds of sexual/touch experiences that people can have that aren't on the level of experiencing touch/sex with someone you love. Luckily for me, I've only had one sexual experience in my life of the "wham bam thank you m'am" variety. Probably why this sucked was that I didn't like the low oxytocin levels generated by such an activity. When people (obviously mostly women) have sex and don't orgasm they end up feeling more stressed/depressed after the sex then they did before for biochemical reasons. I think this may also be true when people do have orgasms but without building up enough of a supply of chemicals beforehand so they don't feel adequately aroused before orgasming (sort of like trying to flush the toilet without enough water in the tank).
Another question I had was what happens to you biochemically when you interact with other people sexually or affectionately but not actually physically. For instance, do my oxytocin levels go up when someone on this BB gives me a (((hug)))? How much more would they rise with a real hug from that person? If I were to engage in internet chat sex would I release more prolactin than I do when MBing? How much more? How much less than from actual sex?
Another thought. Both the concept of having a "f*ck buddy" and a "cuddle buddy" exist in our culture. When I am turned off at the thought of casual sex, it is usually because I experience a certain amount of stranger anxiety which could be interpreted as a fear of getting my oxytocin levels messed up because I might get f*cked but not cuddled. This is why I am unable to act out the Schnarchian Bar Scenario. It's interesting to note that I have this fear even though I have only had one bad casual sex incident in my life and have found most men to be reasonable affectionate, cuddly and validating even (or perhaps "especially"-LOL)in the context of a one-night-stand. So, if I believe that my ability to act out the Schnarchian bar scenario (not necessarily actually doing it)is what would make my marriage more passionate then is the "cure" for me to develop an attitude of "There are no strangers only friends you haven't met."? Would this be equivalent to telling myself "If you can't get oxytocin/prolactin from the one you love, get oxytocin/prolactin from the one you're with"?
Another thought I had is that most of what we recommend on this BB as GAL activities are activities that might help someone adjust their biochemical levels in socially acceptable ways such as exercise, massage, social interaction, sports. The "problem" with this in the long run, IMO, is that while doing all these things makes you less "needy" for sex because you are better able to self-sooth they actually can make you more "wanty" for sex because they raise the level of "healthy" sex drive or chemicals. For instance, you feel less stressed but more excited. So, I guess what I'm saying is that this isn't really a problem for the HD person who learns to better "hold onto" themselves but it can be a problem for the relationship unless the LD spouse is able to repond in a similar, though opposite, fashion.
In my own relationship, I chose to stop hugging my H because I was getting a frequent "stiff body" response. This was probably messing with my oxytocin levels and making me unhappy. After a while I noticed that he was initiating hugs and other types of affectionate touch more often (though not behaving more sexual)in response to my "no hug" program. Of course, it was easier for me to stop initiating hugs than to stop initiating sex because I am able to meet my oxytocin needs elsewhere. I can cuddle with my daughter or the dog. I can get a hug from my sister or a friend. The best I can do sexually is to MB and I would agree with the study that it is 4x less satisfying than actual sex. Also, it is only during sex with a loving, or at least friendly, partner that I can get that delightful oxytocin/prolactin cocktail combo that I really want.
I'm sure it's all much more complicated than this but for some nerdy reason it makes me happy to consider the problem in this way. So here is the question for any real biochemist/neurologist types who might be lurking around the BB- Could it be that raising value is simply a way of raising NPY levels in your partner and thereby increasing their feeling of "hunger" or "appetite" by making yourself appear more "tasty" and decreasing validation is simply a way of lowering oxytocin levels and thereby increasing your partner's desire for human touch?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Babbling on. Another thought I had was how does this tie in with the whole idea of orgasmless touch raising good feelings between couples in the book Corri was recommending. It seems to me that the stereotype is that women mostly want a higher oxytocin to prolactin release mix than men during a sexual encounter. They need/want to be touched more before and after sex in order to be adequately aroused before orgasm or in order to orgasm. They also need more attention or cuddling after sex in order to feel good about the encounter. OTOH, a woman who is a SAHM with three small children may feel completely drained of oxytocin. She is "touched out" and might see any attempt to exchange physical affection by her H as a further demand on her dwindled supply of oxytocin. The offer of a hug is seen as a demand for a hug etc. I think this same phenomena is at play when you have a spouse with depressive tendencies. The low level of oxytocin present during depression makes them unable to feel loving towards themselves let alone others.
Which takes me back to my situation. Two weeks ago my H slumped into depression due to job stress. For several days he was basically impossible to deal with. Then he started taking St. John's Wort and Ginko and improved his mood but not his drive. He became more affectionate but not sexual. When we hit the 2 week mark without sex, I hit the wall and felt a strong urge to initiate sex. Though this was somewhat mediated into the thought "I should engage in open communication about our sexual issue with my H once again (sigh).". So I did. However, once I started talking it was like I could hear myself as the sort of "blah, bleh, blah" noise of an adult talking on a Charlie Brown cartoon and I couldn't go on. I just sort of flopped down and said "God, I hate having to play this role in our relationship.". Then I asked my H what he really expected from me in this situation and he said he wished that I could just be "happy-go-lucky" until we were able to "reconcile" sometime in the future. He then added that he knew that was not something he could rationally ask of me since I couldn't help being who/how I am. The tenor of the whole conversation was pretty calm and respectful.
Anyways, that was Thursday night and we did end up having sex on Saturday. However, this may have been due to the fact that my H sensed the fact that I was mentally working on my post-divorce budget and pre-divorce To Do List. The sex was pretty hot but afterwards my H chose to indulge in a bit of ,IMO, "ordinary marital sadism" by turning on the TV and making multiple comments about how much he enjoyed watching the cleavage revealed by the women on the late night infomercials. IMO this was a typical example of the male tendency to "act like a d*ck when you feel like a p*ssy". My seriously oppositional H was feeling like a p*ssy because he had sex with me because I wanted it, therefore he felt like he was having sex in "loser" mode. Therefore, I pretty much ignored his behavior except to get in a minor jab by stating truthfully that some of the men in the infomercials might be sexually attractive to me if there wasn't complete idiocy coming out of their mouths. Interestingly, he exhibited similar behavior before the last sexual encounter we had before he slipped into his state of angst/depression. He told me that he was planning on having sex with me that evening and he was going to check out the cleavage on the women he saw while he was out and about that day in order to get himself in the mood. I ignored this comment and he felt compelled to come back in the room and give me a hug and apologize for perhaps hurting my feelings by saying it.(Note: It's kind of odd to me that my H is using "cleavage" in this behavior since my cleavage is probably one of the physical traits I am least likely to be sensitive about since I've always had a nice "rack"-LOL.)
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: This weekend I read the book "You On A Diet"
Jenny ^5 (high 5). I bought the book yesterday and read chapter 1.
I can mentally convert, follow the food analogy and other chemical train of thoughts you have. If only BB would do the same thing but I think Jenny Craig will have National "Doughnut Mondays" before that happens.
Quote: studies have shown that prolactin levels are 4x higher after sex than after masturbation.
Really? That explains some things.
Quote: I might get f*cked but not cuddled.
Maybe but maybe you might find the guy kind of like a pesky fly, wanting to hang around more, maybe even developing into an EA?
I am just sticking up for the guys that like to cuddle Jenny. There might be more of us cuddlers out there than the myth would have you believe. The high school boys saying "find them, feel them, F them and leave isn't always true, unless you are dealing with highschool boys.
Quote: For instance, do my oxytocin levels go up when someone on this BB gives me a (((hug)))?
I can't measure oxytocin, but have experienced and read about a tender-hearted or happy tear or two.
Quote: I chose to stop hugging my H because I was getting a frequent "stiff body" response. This was probably messing with my oxytocin levels and making me unhappy.
U2?
Quote: So here is the question for any real biochemist/neurologist types
I guess that leaves me out, but if one shows, the sample size went from one to two.
I have no Words of Wisdom. However I agree that your H was acting like a d*ck because he felt like a p*ssy. I've never heard that on before but it is an excellent description.
I often wish I lived near some of the ladies on this board so I could offer an in person hug, some tea (or margaritas) and sympathy.
Quote: Jenny ^5 (high 5). I bought the book yesterday and read chapter 1.
Excellent! I got a lot of validation from reading the book because I'm already successfully doing many of the things that it recommends and have seen the results. I figure if I implement a few more of their recommendations I can break through the weight plateau I'm currently at and maybe make it back to my pre-baby (who is now 18 )fighting weight. Maybe we can be each other's support buddies like the book recommends. We can start a very boring thread on which we can just report to each other that we took our daily walk etc.
Quote: Maybe but maybe you might find the guy kind of like a pesky fly, wanting to hang around more, maybe even developing into an EA?
I am just sticking up for the guys that like to cuddle Jenny. There might be more of us cuddlers out there than the myth would have you believe. The high school boys saying "find them, feel them, F them and leave isn't always true, unless you are dealing with highschool boys.
Oh, I know that this is true. You have to remember that I married at 23 so most of my pre-marriage sexual partners were high school or college boys. I've never dated or had sex with anyone older than 24 except my H. Also, in my Schnarchian bar scenario I imagine myself going for the quick fix of hitting the biker bar down the road from me which is probably inhabited by men who mostly have the mentality of high school boys. Clearly, I am my own worst enemy when it comes to "stranger anxiety". In real life, if I was divorced I'd probably meet men by joining appropriate social groups like hiking, book or robot-building clubs or by letting my sisters or friends set me up.
Quote: I can't measure oxytocin, but have experienced and read about a tender-hearted or happy tear or two.
That's true. I have felt the authentic wish to give a hug of comfort to many people on this BB so I'm sure the same is true for others. It's funny that we have often joked about the sexual shenanigans that would take place if all the HD folk on this BB ever got together in real life. It might really be the case that it would be more of a hugfest than a f*ckfest. (Though the presence of alcohol and low lighting and appropriate music might cause things to quickly degenerate from hugging to copping a feel to ...)
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: I have no Words of Wisdom. However I agree that your H was acting like a d*ck because he felt like a p*ssy. I've never heard that on before but it is an excellent description.
I often wish I lived near some of the ladies on this board so I could offer an in person hug, some tea (or margaritas) and sympathy.
Thanks Karen. I am LOL because you referred to me as a "lady" after validating my use of an extremely crude description.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I am beginning to think I am more male-like than lady like when it comes to sex. I really don't want a lot of touching/cuddling in the beginning...a few touches and I am good to go...meanwhile I wait for my H to get his supply of closeness. IOW, I am ready to go for it but end up in giving mode til H is there. After sex, we are the reverse: I want lottsa cuddling and he is ready to go to sleep, so he is " forced" to give when he really doesn't want to. We will ever be on the same page? Not sure how this fits into your neurobiologic theory.
Quote: I have felt the authentic wish to give a hug of comfort to many people on this BB so I'm sure the same is true for others.
Could it be that the oxytocin buzz comes from that warm fuzzy feeling of WANTING to hug, whether or not an actual physical hug follows? Don't get me wrong-- I'm all for the physical hug-- but maybe the oxytocin is kicked off by the reaching out thing. And then of course if one encounters "stiff body" when you reach out with warm, fuzzy feelings, that can set up all kinds of internal conflict.
I'm kind of with IHJ (as I often am ), I don't want a lot of cuddling-- I want to get right to it pretty quick. I want to see evidence of desire from my partner. I want him to want it BAD. When my late H was alive, he talked to the therapist (the same one my bf is seeing now) about my lack of interest in sex and the therapist sent him home with some tasteful and EXTREMELY explicit and erotic videos for us to watch. The therapist mistakenly thought that I was a bit prudish and needed the emotional warm-up and needed to know that Nice Girls could do all the stuff in the video. He got it all wrong-- what I wanted was more aggression from my H, more "taking what he wanted"-- my H was the more reserved one. I gotta say, that therapist has a full, and somewhat distorted, picture of me.
The high school boys saying "find them, feel them, F them and leave isn't always true, unless you are dealing with highschool boys.
), I don't want a lot of cuddling-- I want to get right to it pretty quick. I want to see evidence of desire from my partner. I want him to want it BAD. When my late H was alive, he talked to the therapist (the same one my bf is seeing now) about my lack of interest in sex and the therapist sent him home with some tasteful and EXTREMELY explicit and erotic videos for us to watch. The therapist mistakenly thought that I was a bit prudish and needed the emotional warm-up and needed to know that Nice Girls could do all the stuff in the video. He got it all wrong-- what I wanted was more aggression from my H, more "taking what he wanted"-- my H was the more reserved one. I gotta say, that therapist has a full, and somewhat distorted, picture of me.