Quote: Are you saying I'm too free with my pretzels? Tee hee...
LOL. Maybe I'm saying that you are not valuing your pretzels high enough. For instance, what if my local baker determined that most of her customers were like your H, likely to spoil their appetite for pretzels with a cheap quick-fix at the convenience store midweek? There are two logical responses, she could start baking a cheaper line of pretzels available at the convenience store or she could tell herself that she's just not in that business. She's a gourmet pretzel baker, not a cheap convenience store pretzel baker. I'm suggesting that you go with option two because setting yourself up to compete with porn is like my local baker trying to compete directly with Frito-Lay. She can't win, especially if she wants to feel pride in her baking. Also, recognize that while it is true that your H is your only potential customer, it is also true that you are the only bakery in town where he can get fresh, warm pretzels. Your only real competition is the bakery in the next small town down the road to which your H might relocate in search of better pretzels. So raise value if necessary by thinking about how you can improve your recipe and the ambience of your shop relative to other small town bakers, not how you can bake pretzels just as symmetrical a Frito-Lays and sell them just as cheap. Reduce validation by not letting the riff-raff hang out in your cozy little shop munching on convenience store pretzels. Any customer who wants to experience the ambience of your shop needs to pay full gourmet pretzel price and it's up to them whether or not they eat the pretzels. If they are unwilling to pay for either the ambience or the pretzels then, unfortunately for them, you aren't running a charity bakery and they'll have to make way for a new paying customer.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Fairly cr*p weekend here in Mojoland. My H came home from work Friday evening and started one of his "I hate my job so much." tirades. I find it hard to deal with his "I hate my cr*ppy job" tirades because on occasion in the past these tirades have led to him actually quitting his job. For about 5 minutes I allowed myself to go down my old rut or validation strewn thinking about the matter which goes something like "If he loved me he wouldn't quit his job or make my life unpleasant by threatening to quit his job.". Of course, feelings of hurt and anger accompanied this thought. But, somehow, I managed to push my cart out of this rut and try to examine the issue more rationally. Is it likely that my H's motivation for quitting his job is to hurt me or make me angry? Highly unlikely. Therefore, his desire to quit his job is something he feels in spite of the fact that he doesn't want to upset me. OTOH, my desire to have a marital partner who is bringing in a steady income is something I feel in spite of the fact that I love my H. I also tried to "differentiate" this issue in terms of my natural response about what I felt he owed our children in this regard. Basically, I tried to consider in what ways I was motivated to "control" his behavior around this issue and proceed on the basis that although my desire to control his behavior would be natural, it would be wrong or at least wrong-minded.
So far, so good. Once I had resolved that I had no business controlling my H's behavior, a wonderful feeling of freedom came over me because the natural corollary of my resolution was that my H had no business controlling my behavior either. However, my H was not very appreciative of my fairly cheerful mindset, and he continued throughout the weekend with behavior that could best be characterized as "picking on me". I will admit that I let it get to me a bit but mostly I was able to "hold on to myself" and just respond along the lines of "I would appreciate it if you didn't express yourself in such a disrespectful manner.". Clearly, his behavior was an attempt to get me to validate his desire to quit his job. At one point, in response to some ridiculously cr*bby comments about a minor household matter, I just looked at him and said "I want you to do exactly, precisely whatever YOU want to do because that is what I am going to do myself.".
I was also wise enough not to do anything myself to drag the sex issue into the fray. That would clearly be a lose/lose option for me. IMO, the trap most married or otherwise fused people frequently get themselves into is hitching one issue on to another and ending up with a giant train wreck.
I should add that I did do what I thought I could/should in terms of trying to sympathize with my H's unhappiness with what was going on at his workplace and offering practical assistance. I wasn't trying to communicate "That's your problem buddy." just "Don't ask me to make your choices for you and I'll do the same.".
So, when I say that I had a cr*p weekend, what I'm really saying is that I am faced with having some hard choices or decisions to make for myself. Like "What will I do if my H quits his job?" or "What will I do if my H doesn't quit his job but chooses to mope around in a cranky, LD manner?". As I was thinking about all of this it occurred to me that it might actually be counter-productive to say something like " I will not stay in a sexless marriage." to your spouse because the person you need to say it to is yourself. Not in the form of a mantra but in the form of a question. "Is it the case that I will not stay in a sexless marriage?". By saying it to your spouse, you are in a sense looking for validation for the answer "Yes." from the worst possible source. Any reaction they might have to this statement is going to be a variation on the theme of "No. You are going to stay in a sexless marriage and here are the reasons why in case you have forgotten.". I'm not ragging on LDfolk here. I think this is the perfectly natural response anyone would have in any situation in which they are presented with what amounts to two choices that are both unpleasant.
Maybe I wasn't being accurate when I said that it is counter-productive to say it to your spouse but I guess what I'm asking myself is what is the purpose of saying it to your spouse rather than just saying it to yourself? I think it is wrong-minded to say it just because it might "work" because the fact of the matter is that it won't "work" if you are saying it for that reason. So if it's wrong to say it in order to be manipulative then do you say it simply in the interest of fair warning or fair play, like a parent who says "If you touch the cookie jar one more time I'm going to slap your hand." rather than just slapping the kid's hand. If this is the case it seems to me that it is simply a way to seek validation for being the "good guy" in the situation or transfer guilt as in " I told him 20 times that I was going to leave him if our sex life didn't improve, therefore I am not to blame for the current situation.".
I guess a weak argument could be made that the purpose of actually saying it to your spouse is simply improved communication or honesty. However, this is based on the assumption that your spouse is highly lacking in perception and does not understand you or your motivations. I believe that if you say it to yourself, you will "say" it to your spouse. If you attempt to "hide" the fact that you are saying it to yourself from your spouse then you don't really believe it yourself. Your deceptive behavior is driven by fear which is the product of your indecision "What if you make the wrong choice? Will you be more miserable?".
Back to the original theme of my thread which I still strongly hold to be true. I think if you increase value and reduce validation you will be effectively telling your spouse "I will not stay in a sexless marriage.". If you tell simply say the words "I will not stay in a sexless marriage." and don't increase value and reduce validation, you might as well serenade your spouse with "Mairzy Doats" for all the good it's going to do you. In fact, you'd be better off with the "Mairzy Doats" because at least you'd avoid an unpleasant, unproductive scene.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Subtle reasoning, Mojo, and I agree with it. The stating of a boundary or a condition is something that you say to yourself. Period.
After that, you may or may not choose to relay it to your partner. If you do relay it to your partner, it must not be done in the spirit of "I'm doing THIS to get you to do/not do THAT." It must just be a reporting of "this is the way things are."
This is really good, and it may be the missing link in all of our boundary discussions.
When I said to my BF, "I will not be under the same roof with you and alcohol ever again," I was truly at the end of my rope and wasn't testing him or even trying to get him to stop drinking. I was reporting a conclusion that *I* had already reached through an internal process. AND if he had stopped drinking on his own, I might not have ever made that statement to him. But after he got home from the heart surgery, he bought a bottle of wine, and that's when I told him the conclusion I had already reached.
[Amusing (or not) aside: We were talking about this over the weekend, and he does not remember my making that statement or expressing that boundary. The way he remembers it is that he decided in the hospital that he would stop drinking then and there. What really happened is that we had an ugly scene in his hospital room involving the nurse who was giving him discharge instructions and I was ranting about his drinking and about how I could not get the cardiologist to make any statement to BF one way or the other about the damaging effects of drinking a 12-pack of beer every g-dd-mn night! I remember crying and screaming a bit. He remembers none of this... only that he was the man o' steel who left the hospital vowing to remain dry. ]
Anyway, Mojo, this business of firming up one's own position on these issues and committing to that position before or even instead of ever telling your partner about them is very important.
Quote: Anyway, Mojo, this business of firming up one's own position on these issues and committing to that position before or even instead of ever telling your partner about them is very important.
Right. Though I do agree with the point that Corri made on the other thread that saying "I will not stay in a sexless marriage" is a way to make a stong statement about the value sex holds for you. Communicating the value of sex for you is the best way to reduce validation, IMO. I'm just thinking that some people might have to start smaller than threatening divorce when communicating that value. For instance, what if a HD person were to just approach their spouse on week 1 and say "I like sex." and deal in a mature manner with whatever response/reaction they might get. On week 2, they could say "I like sex so much that I would rather have sex than eat a cheesburger or ride my motorcycle.". On week 3, they could say "I feel so great after I have sex with you that I would rather have sex than get an expensive present." etc. etc. I'm being sort of silly here but my point is that it is proper and effective to make "I" statements about the value of sex but why not start by making "I" statements that you are dead-sure that you can stand behind.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Crabby mopiness, I know what that's all about. Well done to you for not letting it get to you. The best way I'm finding of dealing with it is to play into it with ironic comments. In other words put yourself on his side but see if you can't make him laugh about how crabby he's being.
I don't know.. can't think of a good example right now. Just by describing the things he's moping about as *tiny problems* but with heavy irony. "Hey honey, I know you can't wait to get up this morning and head off to that fantastic job of yours but it's past 7 o'clock." KWIM? I don't know maybe saying the opposite temporarily fools people into thinking that it's true, they let the words slip past their radar because of the irony in your voice but at the same time something of the positive sentiment sneaks through.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Thought I'd come back to my own thread rather than continuing to blab all over the BB. Here is my current thought about my current mindset-LOL. I am feeling relatively LD for me and relatively happy because instead of being LD for sex or my relationship in my typical Type 7 sinking down to 6 fashion of feeling low self-esteem or misery or my alternative coping mechanism of using my Type 8 edge to feel angry enough to want to leave the relationship, I am using my Type 8 edge to make me feel sexually LD because I am not getting enough respect in the relationship. This way I can feel relatively happy or self-respecting by riding up towards 8 but not bothersomely high drive and not desperate to leave the relationship. Of course, this has the unfortunate effect of making my H very uncomfortable in the relationship because he would prefer it that I would stay in pursuit mode. Therefore, I need to work/feel my way towards a sort of balance where I am neither pursuing or avoiding but just sort of being available emotionally and sexually. The only way I know how to do this is to just tell myself that any feelings of over-excitement, boredom, misery or anger are a sign that I am on the wrong path and I need to figure out how I got there and backtrack until I'm more centered.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I would like to move our conversation over here to your thread, too. I just replied on the other thread, but if you want to reply to that, I suggest you do it here.
Regarding moving around the Enneagram...when the 7 is stressed, she goes to 1, and the down-side of 1 is the "self-righteous indignation." You don't move around the Enneagram "star" in linear (or circular fashion).
The flow goes in this direction when it is positive and healthy:
4 to 1 to 7 to 5 to 8 to 2 to 4
The 3-6-9 have their own inner triangle. The healthy direction for them is 6 to 9 to 3 to 6.
The unhealthy direction reverses these,
4 to 2 to 8 to 5 to 7 to 1 to 4
And the same for the inner triangle-- the negative direction is 9 to 6 to 3 to 9
What this looks like in real life is as follows: as a 4 I am inclined to melancholy, nostalgia, envy, wishing I was somewhere else. In the healthy direction, I move toward 1, which is a person who takes action and doesn't sit around contemplating their navel. When the 4 moves in the unhealthy direction, she moves to 2, the caregiver-rescuer (sound like anyone you know from the BB? )
When the 7 moves in the healthy direction, she moves to 5, which is the scientist, the conservator. The "sin" of the 7 is gluttony-- buying things, eating things, drinking too much, and probably getting drunk on experiences, too. The 5 is more conservative, reserved, more analytical. Interesting that cobra actually represents your positive direction, in a theoretical sort of way.
The negative direction for the 7 is 1, and as I said above, the downside of the 1 is the person who is always right, the my-way-or-the-highway type. Interesting that the 1 is a negative direction for you but a positive direction for your H.
ASIDE: This very righteous, "I know best" kind of woman is referred to by some Jungian writers as an "animus woman," or a woman who is suffering from "animus possession," which means that she talks from her head and not from her heart. She goes on and on in a dry, theoretical way, but without compassion or a heart.
According to Jungian thinking, the man's soul is feminine (anima) and the woman's soul is masculine (animus). They function in slightly different ways. This explains (in part) the swept away sensation of falling in love: through the Beloved you feel that you have connected with your own soul. In loving the other, we finally permit ourselves to fall in love with ourselves.
They also talk about a man being "anima possessed"-- a man possessed by his anima is mopey, lost, confused, lacking in will and direction. But these ideas belong to another system. END OF ASIDE.
There is no one Enneagram position that is better than the others. Each has its upside and downside.
The Enneagram is a pretty deep system. We just dealt it a glancing blow here.
Quote: I once read that people who procrastinate do it in pursuit of immortality or to avoid the fear of death. Here's how it works. When you procrastinate you are giving yourself the message that there is time enough to do everything. You choose to do something fun and unproductive rather than something boring and productive because you desperately want to believe that you have time enough to do both. Therefore the cure for procrastination is to get a realistic grip on time and recognize your need to balance fun and boring activities. Developing strict habits and routines is helpful because the more things that a Type 7 can do on "auto-pilot" the better. When a Type 7 can do something in distracted "auto-pilot" mode it's like she's doubling that hour of life experience. For instance, the laundry is done and the bed's are made but her mind spent the hour thinking about the novel she just read or planning a party. Some activities are impossible to do on "auto-pilot" but not exciting, fun or interesting. These are best accomplished by the Type 7 by figuring out how to make a "game" of it. A game needs rules and rewards. So let's say I wanted to organize my basement. I could use the 27 Fling rule that I learned on FlyLady and just throw away 27 things every day until the basement was free of useless clutter. My reward might be I get to set up a hobby workshop in the basement. I HIGHLY recommend the FlyLady site to any Type 7. Basically, I've learned to improve my functioning by reading a billion, jillion organizational, personal motivation and time management books. Much in the same way that you've improved your Type 4 angst functioning by reading self-help books.
This makes a lot of sense. I think another thing procrastinators do (and I'm a procrastinator, too, but when I move in the direction of 1, I stop piddling around and get to work), is they want to have something to look forward to. Sevens are very future-oriented. The can get bogged down in planningplanningplanning and not get around to DOING the thing. By letting things pile up, one ensures that s/he will have something to look forward to.
Another thing he does along those lines is buy something and then never open it or take it out of the box. I'm capable of this, too. When I was a kid, I loved SETS of things, especially a set of crayons or colored pencils. I just liked knowing that I possessed a full SET of something. Often I never used them or even opened them.
It's interesting... my bf and I have a LOT of similar personality traits-- a lot of the stuff he does that bugs me, I can say "I'm capable of that" and I leave him alone.
It's just that when he puts off really important stuff like bringing in SOME income, or not getting a lawyer to meet him in court that I get antsy. I truly do not bug him about every little thing. He wouldn't put up with it, for one thing, and for another, I've learned that you cannot change someone else. I just want to keep him out of debtor's prison. Back when he was letting the court thing slide and it was a real possibility that he might go to jail, I had to ask myself, "If he goes to jail, will I visit him? Will I dump him?" It made me so mad that he might go to jail not because of anything he actively DID, but because he just "let things slide..."
There ARE techniques and tips that would help him, but one runs up against another trait of his: he won't be told what to do by anyone. Even if it was something he was planning on doing anyway, if someone tells him, then he will stop dead in his tracks and put it off. Not just stuff I tell him-- because I tell him very little along the lines of what to do.
Oh well... enough b!tching for a while. These insights of yours have been very helpful.
Quote: When the 7 moves in the healthy direction, she moves to 5, which is the scientist, the conservator. The "sin" of the 7 is gluttony-- buying things, eating things, drinking too much, and probably getting drunk on experiences, too. The 5 is more conservative, reserved, more analytical. Interesting that cobra actually represents your positive direction, in a theoretical sort of way.
The negative direction for the 7 is 1, and as I said above, the downside of the 1 is the person who is always right, the my-way-or-the-highway typeteresting that the 1 is a negative direction for you but a positive direction for your H.
I can see how this might be true because I would say (or other's might tell me ) that my worst (most defensive) trait is arrogance and my best (most undefended) trait is curiousity.
The fact that my defended unhealthy tendencies are in the same direction as my H's healthy tendencies is probably why he says things to me like "You are blocking my male energy.". It's also probably the case that the fact that the "goody-two-shoes" part of my personality is my unhealthy side is what is causing me to feel very confused about what I should do in various situations because the "good" or "right" thing to do for me isn't necessarily the "healthy" or "high-functioning" thing for me to do.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
)
These insights of yours have been very helpful.