I have been a "lurker" on this board for some time, and would like to congratulate the regular contributors for the quite outstanding quality of their reflexions.
I feel the need to respond to this thread because I have a certain sympathy with your H, Fran. Our situations are analogous to some extent, though not entirely - thank heavens. My W is also somewhat older than me. I also consider that she is superior to me in many - not all - respects. She is more "attractive" than me. She is more successful than me in her profession.
Now for the differences : I don't think my W feels superior - or "one-up" - to me in any way. If she does, she hides it very well. She does not feel particularly attractive or intelligent (although she is IMO). She is the higher earner (it used to be me). And I would be considered as the HD (H means "higher" for me as I think I am simply normal) partner. We are very close in almost all aspects (except... you guessed), and discuss most things openly. My W is also prone to feelings of guilt (you wouldn't have had a Catholic upbringing by any chance ?)
Reading your posts, it would seem that your choice of H was almost entirely down to chance, which is why I find you choice of pseudo so interesting.
"haphazard : Mere chance (Oxford English Dictionary)"
As you say, you approached your H - or rather you allowed him to approach you - essentially for his qualities as an insect repellent ("there were a lot of bees buzzing around this particular honeypot at the time but he happened to get there first and I felt safe I guess putting him between me and them"). Highly flattering for a man. Then you married him because he took at face value a joking remark : "I said off the cuff 'not unless you marry me'" It is difficult to accept that a woman of your intelligence would do such a stupid thing, but that is what you would have us believe.
And then there is the previous BF....
"I was devastated by the break-up - that is clearly why I hooked up with H, chicken-soup for the soul, he’s always been a sweetie-pie."
of couse, you never bring this up with your H. But, if he hasn't sensed the fact that you compare him mentally to this idealised fossil then he really is the "one-down" you portray. "Chicken soup for the soul" eh ? And you expect this man to desire you ? to fulfil your needs ?
Almost everything you write about yor H is negative. The rare times when it is vaguely positive, it is invariably qualified by negativity. Examples : "he is putting in some effort. But the effort is all wrong" ; "I wasn’t marrying a complete loser" (no, not a COMPLETE loser, but almost...) ; "Yes my H is a man of action. I like that about him but I also miss having a mind to mind R with someone..." etc. etc. etc.
You say his anxiety causes him to fish for compliments ; but why is he so anxious ? Have you really no responsibilty in this ? In fact, have you really no reponsibility for anything in your R ? Reading you, that is what one would be led to believe. Everything is your one-down H's fault, you, the "one-up", are to blame for nothing. Except being too attractive, too intelligent, too successful...
Apparently, your H is also afraid to socialise with you. Have you ever asked yourself what it is in your behaviour which makes him feel destabilized ? Do you make it patently clear to those around you how much you love him ? That it is useless to flirt with you, because you are "spoken for" ? Or do you completely neglect him and "butterfly" (as the French so beautifully say) around other men ?
You insist on the fact that many friends tell you that you "could do better", sorry "SO MUCH better". IMO, if a "friend" of my W's said this she would bite their head off... so they don't. What do you say in response to these suggestions ? I think that friends will only dare to say such things if YOU have given subliminal signals that this is what you want or are willing to hear.
Another important point : you write a lot about your guilt. Do not see your guilt as a handicap. Your guilt is a tool : you use it to justify your opinion of your H. If you suddenly lost your guilt, you would be obliged to be honest with yourself, which is somewhat more difficult.
When your H had his affair, why did you accept his return ? This is not clear at all from your posts. In fact, do you love this man or not ? This is not clear either. Of course, the woman with whom he had the affair was a "nutter". Why else would she want him ? More imporantly : why do - or did - YOU want him ?
You have to admit to yourself that your H gives you something you profoundly need. You are deceiving yourself - and your H - in denying this. Otherwise, you would no longer be in the relationship. You also have to accept that he is your choice. I believe that divorce is still legal in the UK ? That enforced marriages are still illegal ? So, if you are still with him, that is YOUR CHOICE.
This post is hard, I realise that. You will find it difficult to believe that I have also great sympathy with you, wish you all the best, and am convinced that you are indeed the attractive, intelligent, successful woman you think you are. In fact, probably even more so than you think. However, if you aren't honest with yourself, neither you nor your H will ever be truly happy.
Amicably,
Alphamole
PS : do not take your dreams at face value. If you want to understand your dreams, read "The Interpretation of Dreams" by Sigmund Freud.
I was waiting for Fran or someone to reply to your comments, but I’m going to step up and say that I see a lot of what you say. I thought that was a very insightful post and had a lot of truth in it, even though it hurts.
Fran,
How much of the overreaction with the feminist movement do you think has invaded your attitude toward men and influenced your mindset toward your H? (Now if you were Corri, you’d just answer Mu. )
Hmm... I've been trying to stay away from the board but now you're just baiting me
Believe it or not although this thread makes me sound like an arrogant b!tch it is actually about me realising something about his POV. If as the Passion Trap suggests the behaviours I have seen from him which I have found to be unattractive are as a result of him feeling one-down and anxious then my reaction to that is NOT just to say "hey look I married a loser", my reaction is to behave in ways designed to let him feel less anxious and more one-up.
mu
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
As much as it pains me to say so, I guess men can be just as obstinate as women. This brings to mind the same advice I see in Dieda’s book and the chapter that Blackfoot mentioned to me – “Don’t Suggest That a woman Fix Her Own Emotional Problem” – and the chapter “Praise Her.” On p. 62 he says:
“It is difficult for most men to learn, but you must learn to praise the very qualities you feel are not yet praiseworthy in order for them to become so. In other words, praise the tiny quality that you want to grow.”
“Praising the things you really enjoy when she exercises will magnify her exercising. On the other hand, by telling her why she should exercise, you are indicating that she is not acceptable to you the way she is. Praise works. Information doesn’t. Praise motivates. Challenge doesn’t.”
Now it seems fairly obvious to me that there is absolutely no difference in what Dieda says regarding women and what Dr. Laura says regarding men. I have seen some resounding praise by some women of Dieda’s ideas but a strong distaste for Dr. Laura. Why is that? This seems a little hypocritical to me (I am not pointing the finger at you Fran.)
What I hear from both Dieda and Schlessinger is that one partner praise, comfort, soothe the other partner to relieve insecurities, shortcomings, anxieties and fears, while at the same time not confronting and offending that person’s ego. To do so requires understanding of the issues involved (FOO) and a sense of compassion to meet those needs. All the different approaches, techniques, books, theories, etc. that we have discussed here come together to address the same problem - overcoming fear in ourselves and our partner (attachment theory).
If your partner cannot tolerate such praise or has other issues holding him/her back, then Dieda and Schlessinger have different ways to deal with that, but it still comes down to holding onto yourself and facing your crucible. If your partner cannot grow, then you have to decide whether to tolerate the status quo or leave. But my point to your sitch Fran, and what I think Alphamole is saying, is that you need to follow the Golden Rule – in this case think of your H as you would have him think of you.
Fran, about Alphamole posts, I relate to what he is saying because in my R with BB, I feel/hear the message coming from her "not good enough or she wants more of the good things I do for her and us.
Maybe I do some of the things your H does that cause you to feel less than something (I don't know what you feel) or that he is not doing his part in the M.
I am not suggesting you are the problem, just that you consider Alphamole words as partially right or consider his post as having some merit. That some of what he said, you could rearrange to apply to your situation. Kind of like I do with the books I read where I only agree with/comprihend 25% of the book's content.
Again, I am not trying to say you are the bad guy in your R, but your H may feel similar to some of the things Alphamole posted.
Quote: The thing I like about the Passion Paradox is the neither one is the good guy or bad guy.
I have not read the book, just wanted Fran to consider what was posted. sometimes I see myself in some of the posters spouses position and think if a particular behavior is frustrating for a poster, maybe BB feels like the person that posts here.
I do many things to improve the R BB and I have but saw some truth in Alphamoles statement.
Quote: It's just a question of YOUR particular R dynamics.
Coming from a man who has analysed his relationship as deeply as you evidently have, your words are praise indeed.
Frankly, I didn't expect Haphazard to answer my post. I do hope that she read it, and perhaps at least one or two of the points will make her ponder.
Now she says she looks like a bitch. No-one on this thread suggested such a thing. So, why does she write this ? IMO, it's a guilt trip, which avoids having to actually answer the questions.
The problem with the one-up/one-down analysis described by Haphazard is that it fits exactly what she wants to hear. I would be very wary of any theories which lead me to think "Oh! so that explains it." I would prefer : "Oh [censored] ! so that explains it." i.e. the truth is very rarely comfortable to hear.
I take exception to you saying you did not expect me to answer you. For one thing I'm trying to spend less time on the boards, and for another thing my reply to Cobra was meant as a reply to your comments too. You have clearly read that reply. I wrote out an answer to your questions but it just sounded defensive. Which obviously it was. So I didn't post that I posted my short answer which I felt showed that I had swallowed quite a lot of what you said.
I do accept responsibility. It is not his fault. The Aha moment in this for me is in seeing that behaviours which I had previously seen as negative personality traits are not that at all - they are a reaction. In fact as Lil points out it isn't anyone's fault as such we both have behaved in ways that have been unattractive to the other one and that has set up an R dynamic which has led us to the position we now find ourselves.
You ask a lot of tough questions. The nub of it is - Do I love him? Answer: I don't know. Did I ever love him? I think so - or at least it felt like it at the time. Why don't I divorce him - yes it is legal here and yes it is my choice if I stay - answer: because I have two children aged 7 and 5 so I believe it is my duty as a parent to stay around and be bashed about by people like you until I start to see what *I* can do to make my marriage work.
Yes I say negative things about my H, he says a lot of negative things about me. He is more often to be found saying them to my face in a drunken rage than writing them up on a BB (as far as I know). The fact of the matter AM, is that here I am on a board full of people who are unhappy in their marriages.
BTW the *nutter* comment about OW was what HE called her. I accepted him back because of the kids they were younger then than they are now and I was SAHM. It's a tough spot to be in, there are women who would ditch their H's for doing that to them, but I wasn't strong enough to. The divorce laws in the UK tend to give custody of the children to the W the man will see them something like every other weekend. So I would have had 24/7 care of my kids and had to move out of the house into somewhere smaller and live on whatever the judge decided was enough so that H could start over with someone else.
My H has in the past described me as the love of his life. The hard truth is that I have NEVER felt that way about him. I don't really know what it would mean - didn't feel that for ex-BF either. So what am I supposed to do about it aged 45 with two young kids? Yes I could be honest with myself and honest with him. I could say I don't love you. If I did that what would happen? I would wind up divorced with two young kids. OK maybe I would be being TRUER to myself but I'm not sure that is a luxury I can afford.
Yes he is a paycheck, yes he was a teddy bear. Is that a fulfilling position for a man? No - clearly not. Is it all my fault - probably - but I think he had something to do with it too. The sad fact is we are now stuck with the situation, we have dug ourselves in so deep there is no real way out. Divorce is a way out but neither of us want to do that, it's not the simple answer it could have been pre-kids. But then pre-kids we didn't hate each other.
Life's never easy and it's all very well to say - guilt is a tool blah blah blah. Life stinks. I married the wrong man, I married him for a series of complicated reasons to do with FOO, and a break-up and whatever else was swimming around in my head at the time. Yes I'm intelligent, but it doesn't really make a damn bit of difference when it comes to affairs of the heart. In those I'm as stupid as the next person.
I don't want to hate him anymore, I just want to get along. I've never really been a romantic, I don't believe in moonlight and roses, but I do believe that two reasonably sensible adults can form a close bond and can rub along together for mutual benefit and for the benefit of their kids.
He's a teddy-bear and a paycheck. Well that's OK. Now all I need to know is what he needs me to be. I have a feeling Mojo and Corri might know the answer to that.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I think that you are projecting a good attitude in this post, an attitude that will be productive for you if not your marriage.
Quote: He's a teddy-bear and a paycheck. Well that's OK. Now all I need to know is what he needs me to be. I have a feeling Mojo and Corri might know the answer to that.
Yeah, right. Hmmmm....I think the best answer might be to assume that your H wants what most men want. Not because he is necessarily like most other men but because his ego strength is probably most stroked by believing that he is either like most other men or better than most other men. Therefore, if you don't think one of you current attributes or behaviors is something that would draw men to you if you were to post it in a personal ad for general consumption then I would suggest that might be something you could change to add value in your marriage. For instance, if you wouldn't post a personal ad that said " I take very little care with my appearance, spend way too much money at the mall and frequently nag my H about this and that." then you shouldn't do any of those things. Don't get caught in the trap of tit-for-tat as in "I only spend too much money at the mall because I am bored on the weekend because you do nothing but drink and watch sports on TV.". The way to build "value" or really "character" is to be as consistent as possible in your behavior no matter what the circumstances. For instance, the political prisoner thrown into a black hole who continues to do calesthenics every morning and say his prayers at night. I know it sounds pathetically "goody-two-shoes" but I believe that people who behave in that manner are actually happier.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
) 
