I know that is a tenet of this board, but I do not fully subscribe to it either. In a strict sense I agree that I cannot cause someone to change, but I can create conditions in which the other person might reevaluate their choices. Changing the reward/consequence balance is one example. The other person still does not have to change, but s/he might get mighty uncomfortable. Combine this with my other tenet that most people take the easy way out, even if it takes some time for them to come around, and you DO have the ability to effect change. It just might take some time. Only the most stubborn will endure hardship for years and not change.
Boundaries do this exact thing. If a boundary did not exist before, but I decide to put one up, if for no other reason than a whim (or I suddenly have an epiphany and realize I need this boundary), then I am doing so to tilt the odds in favor of some sort of change. That may not be direct manipulation, but to the person on the other end, I am not sure if it makes much difference. It feels like manipulation to them. It is an exertion of power. There is an obstacle blocking their easy path that was not there before, and I consciously put it there. To me, that would feel like manipulation and control. IMO, this is all a matter of semantics.
Cobra, all I'm saying is that you cannot MAKE anyone change.
I can leave the room when you drink and that might make you reevaluate your choices, granted... but I cannot MAKE you stop drinking.
The problem with the POV you espouse (excuse the expression) is that one winds up focusing too much time on watching the reactions of the other person and not enough time cultivating one's own garden. And one's OWN garden is where one lives one's life.
The other part of the serenity prayer says "to change the things I can." The serenity prayer is not about settling for stuff, putting up with abuse, or giving up. It's about putting the lever in the right place to make The Thing move that needs moving IF IT CAN BE MOVED.
I don’t think I have any disagreement with you. I see the danger in focusing entirely on others and not your self, so I want to be clear that I do not mean to avoid introspection, or managing your own garden.
But there is still the question of knowing whether something can be moved or not. There is no way to know until you try. Sometimes the very act of trying is the validation the other person needs to then move voluntarily. Without that validation, they don’t move.
It’s sort of like the person who says s/he does not want a birthday present. But if you do what they ask and not get a present, they get mad. If you do get a present, against their stated request, there can be a noticeable change of happiness. So how do you know how much to push until you’ve pushed? Especially with a dysfunctional spouse who will not ask, does not know to ask, or does not believe s/he should ask?
Maybe it is better in some cases to let that person wallow in their resentment until s/he realizes s/he should have asked, at that it is their responsibility to honestly state their emotions. But in the mean time, a lot of water can pass under the bridge. Is that really necessary and is it the best course of action for the R?
How much of the idea of not pushing too hard is to respect the other person’s wishes and how much is out of fear of being attacked for pressing too hard? In other words, are you concerned about him/her or yourself? There is no answer, so I say do what many therapists advise, take the two individuals out of the spotlight and focus on the R. Do what is right to preserve the marriage (which is another subjective decision).
The other day H said in response to what are HIS dreams, "To Make me comfortable with your/my dat-to-day existance."
BEST I CAN SAY is he recognises that I'm not happy. Words like existance and MAKE really get my withers up.
I have asked for the prayer and gotten it framed one Christmas. I guess I've been calling for a while now.
So thank you for making that (and other posts) clear. I very much like your posts and your references. You have had more than your share of life's rocks tossed at you; for that I'm truly saddened. Maybe that's why you have so many resources handy.
Lately there is desparation in your posts. I don't know if I'm reading that into them or if its really there.
I'm not schooled enough to offer anything cept a wish that you are able to heal. I have made many mistakes but you have helped in book selection and words. I wish I could do the same for you.
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
The other fault I see in CeMar is his refusal to project a strong attractive image to his wife, Blackfoot’s alpha male image. IMO, there are two levels to the alpha male. The lower level is more power based - setting boundaries and enacting consequences. The higher level can come into play after her other person learns to respect those boundaries. The alpha male can show his compassionate side. I wonder if CeMar has ever established his lower level first?
I think its just the opposite cobra. His wife will have sex whenever he wants. Cemar has the strength, boundaries, anger, whateever part down. I dont think he has the compassion, empathy or understanding to see that a female is receptive. Whenever he talks about GAL, he mentiones it done so as to ELICIT a reaction, instead of done for himself with passion and direction. just postulating, but Any other romantic gestures he may make are done in a approval seeking fasion rather then a caring thoughtful ' I notice what you need, and was thinking of you' manner.
Feel free to chime in cemar. No disrespect meant in talking about you, but if nothing else maybe the scenario rings true for some other.
When's the last time you had an argument by yourself?
Corri
many times when I enter into a dialogue with my subconcious. It makes for a very unrestful meditation.
Fran
Your H is is a mix of attributes just like any other man. his particular mix does seem to swing from one extreme to another.
now about you.
About a year after H and I got together I embarked on a sweater for H. I never finished it.
Thats sad.
You seem to carry a torch for your ex and his positvie attributes. this is pretty common considering you were the dumped party, but its not very useful. Its also damaging to THIS R. I have never really shown him how it hurt me, I just dealt with it and carried on. No wonder he describes me as having no empathy. In fact I do have empathy – a great deal – if I did not then I would have left the R a long time ago. If you dont show it, then is it real? If he cant feel it does it exist? Who we are is shown by our actions, not how we feel on the inside.
My H controls me through guilt, through making me feel guilty for his sense of inferiority No he doesnt. You choose to feel guilty. stop being a martyr. I say that without criticism or disdain.
Lately for whatever reason I have been taking H’s sarcastic negative remarks in a humourous way, assuming he is just using gallows humour rather than moaning. It seems to be working he will laugh ironically back excellant. Now he has directly communicated to you that he desires WOA. It made him less attractive to you. I understand. What is your reason for not doing it, though? Do it. When he denigrates himself, tell him firmly and seriously, you dont like it, please stop. If he tells you to call him 'gorgeous' or the equivalant, ask him if he wants a sincere compliment from you or if he wants you to parrot him. If he cant take a compliment, try the LRS, or try directness. 'H just say thank you'. Reminds me, The woman who wanted to play my Mrs. Robinson taught me how to take a compliment. You can get started on dealing with this stuff proactively, with honesty and congruence, or you can go for another 20 years withholding and playing power games. The only reason your H can play push me pull me is because he has someone to play with.
He used to come up behind me when I was doing make-up and look in the mirror with me and say “aren’t we a good-looking couple”. If I had a bright idea or trounced him in a debate he would say with a twinkle “now you’re acting almost as intelligent as me.” Thank you for this. I really appreciate when you ladies post this stuff. Guys pay attention. This is good stuff.
I say it is easy to see, but it wouldn’t have been in the past, before I came to these boards and learnt so much more about human relationships. Quit focusing on him. Focus on what you need to do. I didnt say, would like or is easy.
he doesn’t like to talk speculatively From your description he sure seems to deliver the goods though. He is a man of action. Your R is all about your perspective. It seems there is quite a bit there worth appreciating.
I intend this post to give you hope. I do not mean it as 2x4's. You seem sad. You have the power to elicit change. If you stop competing with your H, there is a good chance he will stop deprecating himself.
Do I hold a torch for ex-BF? Good question. I was truly glad to be out of that R. It had its good points but it was dysfunctional - very. Who dumped who? Again good question. I tried dumping him about four years in but he persuaded me not to. By year 7 he was having an EA in the end I did the actual dumping, but I guess I felt like he had dumped me - the final year of our R was a nightmare I would never wish to re-live, his behaviour was close to psychotic. The reason he comes up here is as a kind of compare and contrast exercise. I only have experience of living long-term with 2 guys and sometimes I use XBF as an illustration of what he would have done different to H when people say H is "just being a guy". I guess cuz I don't spend too much time here singing H's praises that's going to come out sounding like I am singing the praises of XBF. BTW he never gets a mention in front of my H.
In this case I was seeking to illustrate the difference between being in R where the guy feels the one-down and in a R where the guy doesn't feel that way.
The light bulbs which came popping on when I read Passion Trap were more a case of seeing where H sees himself one-down and the unattractive responses that that invokes. Unattractive qualities that previously I had just thought were "just him", I can now see are a response to one-downness. The case in the book where the guy is one-down really spoke volumes to me. I actually think he is the one who sees himself as more one-down than I see myself as one-up. He is certainly quite a status oriented and competitive character. I guess maybe one of the reasons he was attracted to me was to make himself more one-up, kind of social-climbing if you will. What he didn't reckon on was ending up feeling unworthy. I truly don't believe that was something I DID to him, I think it was all in his head and engendered behaviours which were unattractive and which polarised our relative positions.
I do compliment H a great deal. I used to do it loads when we first got together only to have such remarks rebuffed the whole time. I finally grew tired of that and just told him to say "nice of you to say so".
He said in C that my sounds false. I don't feel false when I say them I think it is his reaction to being complimented. He does have a hard time hearing them.
As for the guilt thing - well all I can say is you've never met my H! He is a master at bad vibes and making all around feel like they must have done something terrible. He told me his mum used to use guilt to make him do stuff - if you would like to see a martyr then look no further than my MIL. I remember a few years back saying something like "I don't do guilt" and he said "I know" in very pointed tones. Like he had been trying hard for years to get me to feel guilty. Lately I have felt more guilty. I think this is for two reasons, one is the kids - mothers always feel guilty somehow and particulary I felt/feel guilty about finding it so hard to make the R with their father work. The other is DBing, one of the main things we learn on these boards is to fix ourselves not our partners. So his guilt trips on me will have been finding their mark more readily. Blackfoot don't for a moment think he doesn't do it to try to control me - it is his main weapon - he even tries it on the kids. He doesn't quite say "after all I've done for you" but you can tell he wants to! They are far too young to respond to this yet, but they will.
Yes my H is a man of action. I like that about him but I also miss having a mind to mind R with someone - using the mind as a source of playfulness and delight rather than always to some "purpose".
I think the main thing that I have learned from reading this book is that Relationships are just that. It is the relative behaviour of one partner to another that matters. Someone can be totally different to the outside world to what they are to their SO. And it does make a difference if one partner feels one-up or the other partner feels one-down. The book mentions bad patterns and I think that's what's going on with us. We fell into bad patterns early on to do with him feeling unworthy of me (I never felt he was unworthy). As a result of this he a)begged for WOA, b)disliked going out with me because it made him feel insecure, c)did as he was told without putting up a fight, d)wouldn't make decisions and then told me I was controlling him, e)had me on a pedestal and therefore at a distance.
All of these behaviours, as well as being unattractive in him, made me feel unloved and as if I'd done something wrong. Which in the end makes me feel one-down
Fran
PS: Blackfoot I just realised a great thing for a guy to say when W says "how do I look" or "does this make me look fat" - just eye her up and down and say 'Well you won't put me to shame" and wink.
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Quote: PS: Blackfoot I just realised a great thing for a guy to say when W says "how do I look" or "does this make me look fat" - just eye her up and down and say 'Well you won't put me to shame" and wink.
How about: "Well, *I* wouldn't kick you out of bed," with a kiss and a pat.
Blackfoot I just realised a great thing for a guy to say when W says "how do I look" or "does this make me look fat" - just eye her up and down and say 'Well you won't put me to shame" and wink.
"Well, *I* wouldn't kick you out of bed," with a kiss and a pat.
Excellant. one for the confidant woman, and one for the unsure woman. Lils is a favorite of mine allready. Im definitely adding yours to my repotoire.
BTW he never gets a mention in front of my H.
In this case I was seeking to illustrate the difference between being in R where the guy feels the one-down and in a R where the guy doesn't feel that way.
Ok.
Hap you seem to have a lot of A-ha's! from the passion book. However we get to them, I think whats important is getting a grasp on what is happening so we can effect some change in ourself and the R dynamic.
Someone can be totally different to the outside world to what they are to their SO. And it does make a difference if one partner feels one-up or the other partner feels one-down. The book mentions bad patterns and I think that's what's going on with us. We fell into bad patterns early on to do with him feeling unworthy of me (I never felt he was unworthy). Absolutely.
I think its helpful to see what is driving the dynamic, and the basis for it, so we can step out and break the crazy making cycle.
I just finished a book called 'Anatomy of Peace'. Its redeeming points are the lessons and not the writing quality. (The Authors also wrote "Leadership and Self Deception'). In chapter five it talks about the difference between collusion vs. conflict. I wanted to share a diagram in the book so I googled it and found the first 9 chapters of the book online HERE (No Im not LDS, ---Im a current day saint. ---but I do like there ideas on polygamy, and being ELohim in the afterlife. )
I see what you are saying about your H. Like I said in my last post he is a mix of 'alpha' and insecurity that seem to swing to extremes.
Its not your job to fix his insecurities, nor is it helpful for you to feel UP when he is insecure, nor DOWN when he tests your boundaries. That is you being fused.
I do compliment H a great deal. I used to do it loads when we first got together only to have such remarks rebuffed the whole time.
I finally grew tired of that and just told him to say "nice of you to say so"......
I don't feel false when I say them I think it is his reaction to being complimented. He does have a hard time hearing them.
Ok so he cant/wont hear compliments. But he DOES want them. <chuckle>
Thats his internal voice issues. Have you ever tried teasing him. When he does something obviously worth complimenting, you tease him that it could hae been better?
ex.
H> I just got a contract for (lotsofmoney)
Hap> what? you mean you only got (lotsofmoney)? Oh my god, we are gonna be in the poorhouse now! You should have charged (lotsofmoney +2pounds) at least. <kiss...whisper..nice job honey.>
I think you get the idea, but since he is the one with internal voice issues, mirroring them and joking with him may be more effective...
Quote: HAP: Blackfoot I just realised a great thing for a guy to say when W says "how do I look" or "does this make me look fat" - just eye her up and down and say 'Well you won't put me to shame" and wink.
BF: "Well, *I* wouldn't kick you out of bed," with a kiss and a pat.
Excellant. one for the confidant woman, and one for the unsure woman. Lils is a favorite of mine allready. Im definitely adding yours to my repotoire.
What a guy needs to realize (as Blackfoot does) is that this is not a fashion question, it's an affirmation-of-desirability question.
Maybe it's analogous to a guy asking if he's the best lover you've ever had (surely no guy in real life is dumb enough risk that question, but this is just an illustration). THAT is a question that does not want a literal answer... it wants affirmation-of-desirability.
The Passion Paradox is a terrific book. There's a lot more detail than we've gone into on this board. He talks about counseling-- the one-down loves counseling because in traditional counseling the one-down and the C gang up on the one-up and suggest that s/he do more loving behaviors, spend more time with the partner, etc. The one-up, who is feeling distant enough and ambivalent about the R, isn't seen as having legitimate issues of his/her own. The thrust of the counseling is "let's get this train back on the tracks where the one-down wants it." His approach is not to pathologize either partner's behavior-- each is responding to the dynamics between them in a legitimate, healthy way. When the R can be brought more into balance, the behaviors will change. BOTH partners need to be seen and heard as having real reasons for behaving the way they do.
He also says that it's the one-up's who generally leave (which means the person currently in the one-up position). One-downs will generally stick around "working on the relationship" forever and only leave if the one-up makes it impossible to stay. I guess that makes most of us here "one-downs" or we'd be working, playing golf, shopping, instead of posting here?
Too much to summarize, but I'm finding it shines new light in some of the dark corners. Big section on practical steps to take to shift the power more into balance.
One of the suggestions dovetails with something we have said over and over again on this board (blackfoot, this is one of your principles), when the one-up starts pulling back, the one-down will be thrown into anxiety, but s/he needs to manage his/her own anxiety and not increase what the author calls "hypercourtship behaviors" (flowers, multiple phone calls, clinging, hovering). Sound like the "man o steel"?
Some good stuff in there.
Edited to add: Great chart, bf! I'm going to post the link on Mrs. Confused's thread. Start at #1 and work your way around clockwise. A real eye-opener.
---but I do like there ideas on polygamy, and being 
)
<kiss...whisper..nice job honey.>