Reasonable and fair according to WHOM? The view that the R is NOT reasonable and fair, according to both spouses, is what is cauing the problems to begin with...
Reasonable and fair as mutually agreed (which is the big trick, right?) That things do not seem reasonable and fair is only PART of the problem in an R. The biggest problem that I can tell is that one or both people have a distorted view of reality, for whatever reason, and they are trying to wrestle that reality back to what they think it should be.
You're joking. In order for me to accept soothing from someone, I have to TRUST them.
No, I do not believe this is true. Trust comes from emotional bonding. Soothing helps create the bond. Without this, how do you propose that you build trust? My wife makes exactly this same argument. It is a deflection to maintain her walls. Just as you mentioned to HP, accepting gifts from others is much harder than giving, but only for those who avoid emotional bonding.
The only way I see you getting to this point is through an agreed upon 'cease fire.' That means you STOP fighting... stop engaging, get a grip... as much as possible. But I think I suggested that to you already, and you agrgued the point with me. I told you... "stop engaging." At least as much as you are able.
The reason I could not hear your message is that it was in terms of self differentiation, trying to be independent for one another. That is not the message that gives me comfort. My twist on this same basic action is to stop fighting for the purpose of reestablishing that missing bond. This may seem subtle, but to my ears, there is a world of difference because it addresses my anxiety issues.
You are expecting a person to learn how to run before they know how to walk. Okay. Good luck with that.
Only from the standpoint of traditional individual based therapy.
But remember the difference between a victim and a martyr. A victim will seek help and change as soon as they recognize the issue(s), and will typically stick with it until it is resolved. A martyr recognizes the problem and gains some sort of personal satisfaction by remaining a victim. I personally believe that many people in dysfunctional Rs... at least the ones I've seen here... have one victim and one martyr. The martyr being the one who stiffles growth for their unwillingness to change.
In some cases I agree with you. But in other cases I do not. My wife has a tendency to really play the martyr. This sidetracked my focus for a long time. I am now seeing it as wrong. She may have some martyr tendencies, but I think more and more now that what appears to be martyrdom is actually an avoidant strategy. It is a complicated way to set up a catch 22 situation intended to result in a stalemate. For the avoider personality, stalemates are safe. They know their partner is still there, is not leaving, but cannot get too close either. My wife does this. Bringing the martyr issue to her attention never struck a chord, but showing her how she was being untruthful to herself plus manipulating me into a catch 22 did get her attention.
I didn't say it had to be a solitary condition. But in any R... there is a you, a me, and a us. If I don't know who the 'ME' is... there is no US. Or it's some very undefined version of ME I'm throwing into the mix... and we all know the damage an undefined ME can do within the context of an R... for I have no boundaries, no sense of self. That was my point.
I fully agree.
Jeese, I keep thinking of the Serenity Prayer when I talk to you: Accepting the things you cannot change, changing the things that you can, and finding the wisdom to know the difference.
And here is where I differ. How do you know what it is that you can or cannot change until you try? Who has the full wisdom to know the difference? If I had gone with a more literal and simplistic interpretation of this prayer, we would have divorced years ago. Our first therapist threw up her hands in frustration, saying she saw no way out. The way it has turned out is that what once seemed to be something I could not change, has in fact changed. Tenacity plays a big part in this. I see many on this board willing to work long and hard to save their relationship. That tenacity is one of the most admirable features I see in everyone here. It is truly an inspiration. My only gripe is that if something is not working, try something else, adopt another philosophy, ask why things stall, why each person reacts as they do. Only people with true mental disorders act irrationally. Everyone else is rational, we just may not have the insight to understand their reasoning, so keep pushing. No, I do not subscribe to the serenity prayer. It is much too fatalistic.
