I think what Burgbud, Cemar and myself are saying is that the idea of only fixing yourself to improve the marriage will only work in some cases. As I see it, marriages have some combination of pursuers and avoiders – three possible combinations: 1) pursuer/pursuers, 2) avoider/avoider (which I do not think ever happens since this combination is not sustainable), and 3) pursuer/avoider.
For cases 1) & 3), when the person making the changes has a pursuer as a spouse, then s/he CAN bring about changes in that spouse. That pursuing spouse is now pursuing a different animal and will have to change tactics to mount a successful pursuit (however success is defined). I believe this can hold whether the spouse making the changes is a pursuer him/herself or an avoider.
If the person making the change is a pursuer and has a spouse who is an avoider, changes by the pursuer may not make any difference at all. I believe that response in the avoider spouse depends on the degree of avoidance in that spouse, i.e., is s/he just avoiding conflict and fighting, or is s/he avoiding emotional intimacy?
For instance, Happy Giant’s wife seems to be off the scale in her avoidance because of assumed sexual abuse issues. No matter how nice or healthy HG becomes, I do not see her coming out of her shell without major therapy work. In his case, he has three choices: a) learn to live with this and make the best of a bad situation, b) leave the marriage or c) push very hard to force a change, through some type of intervention and treatment.
Now if the avoider spouse is not so extreme and is only trying to protect him/her self against pressure from the pursuer, changes in the pursuer will lessen that pressure and allow that avoiding spouse to safely emerge from his/her shell. In this case, I agree with you that changes in the pursuer can improve the marriage.
Couple all of this with anger and resentment in the pursued spouse (which can be due to the perceived abuse that pursued spouse is experiencing OR from FOO issues), and I do not think the cessation of pressure/abuse by the pursuer will result in such clear cut outcomes.
Now, this DOES NOT absolve the pursuing spouse from making any changes or improvements. The ideas you and Blackfoot have been discussing are very relevant. It is as Abraham Lincoln said, “I will prepare myself and wait for my chance to come.” If you have not transformed yourself into the attractive mate your spouse will desire, then simply stopping the pressure will not create the attraction in your spouse. Maybe they emerge from their shell, but become attracted to something or someone else other than you. And isn’t this one of the root fears of pursuers, that s/he will loose the spouse to someone else? So in this way, working on yourself is a REQUIREMENT.
I agree that you cannot fix your spouse, but you can do things to help them improve or not. For some people, I believe gaining security and comfort is prerequisite to self improvement. The philosophy I see on this board is that you fix yourself first in the hopes that your spouse will then give you the comfort you want. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn’t. In fact I think the majority of the time it does not work. Otherwise, where are the success stories to prove me wrong? Hope is not an operative word for someone who is already insecure! Hope is based on faith, and when someone has a traumatic past, there is no hope. Putting your faith in the hands of another is the hardest and scariest thing you can do. Corri, you know this all too well. So why propose someone do just that in order to repair the marriage? The reason there are so few success stories on this board is becoming very clear to me.
Let’s take the case of CeMar’s since we all seem to know his sitch so well. I see a lot of myself in CeMar. I think he is guilty of two major faults. The first is his anger and resentment toward his wife. I think that anger stems from other issues (has anyone heard CeMar talk about his FOO?) He projects that anger onto his wife, hiding behind a self righteous religious wall. Falling back on religious justification for why his wife should honor and desire him is just rationalization for building up a case on entitlement, which in turn is just a deflection for confronting his own fears. He is trying top make his weaknesses the fault of his wife. IMO, that also has a touch of cowardice to it.
The other fault I see in CeMar is his refusal to project a strong attractive image to his wife, Blackfoot’s alpha male image. IMO, there are two levels to the alpha male. The lower level is more power based - setting boundaries and enacting consequences. The higher level can come into play after her other person learns to respect those boundaries. The alpha male can show his compassionate side. I wonder if CeMar has ever established his lower level first?
CeMar, if you have not purged your anger (because you have not confront your fears), and you have not learned to assert yourself in order to establish respect for your boundaries, how can your wife seriously accept any attempt you might make at trying to be alpha male?
CeMar, what about this scenario: When your wife talks to her girlfriends, she talks about your anger, negativity, cynicism, but also about your moping and feeling sorry for yourself. That paints a double image of unattractiveness. I would think most women find that repulsive, and they probably say so to your wife. But when your wife tells them she still gives you sex, they might be appalled that she can bring herself to do this, and think she must be some type of saint! In their eyes, your wife is doing everything right, even above and beyond the call of duty, and you are doing everything wrong. I am NOT saying she is justified AT ALL in this way of thinking, but if this is truly the case, what are YOU going to do to turn it around?
