Muddle's Waters V

[RBinBR]

As I've posted before, I think the fact that I have allowed her feelings to control me and have a track record of caving into her impulses, appeasing her, is a really bad thing to me. So, I can't provide her with the positive reinforcement that I'm getting better at being her husband by doing what she wants because she's going to steer this ship straight into the rocks if all I do is spend my life responding to her demands. And I'll have nobody to blame but myself for wasting my life doing so.

I told her that I was sorry she felt the way she did. She responded by telling me that I'm always so slick and sly about things like this. I appologize for her feelings but I don't take responsibility for causing them. I responded that I was sorry she felt the way she did, and I was sorry that my actions contributed to her feeling the way she did, but I didn't appologize for my actions because they were honest and genuine and had little to nothing to do with her

I give her too much room to abuse this gray area.

"I certainly don't mean to torture you and I am sorry it feels that way. I messed up dinner. Again, I am sorry you feel bad about this, and that you feel like a nut after interacting with me. It must be frustrating to come away from conversations feeling that way."

I placate her - I respond to her manipulative attempts to control me by allowing my fear of her withholding her love to overcome my rational perspective.
This has undermined her respect for me, my respect for myself, our financial status, our whole home environment and more.

Muddle, I haven't kept up with your sitch very well, but I see strong echoes of my own in this. I think you must stop apologizing now (completely). Stop allowing her to berate you. In my opinion, you have no chance to repair your R unless you start standing up for yourself and start taking charge of situations in a positive manner. Regaining her respect is essential, and it won't happen until you take back your own self-respect.

When you constantly allow someone else's feelings and moods to control you -- and you apologize for their feelings -- that's a definition of co-dependency. I say this as someone who was myself unknowingly co-dependent until a separation made me confront the fact.

Have you read David Cunningham's book? If not, email me at [e-mail] and I'll send it to you. I think it's essential reading for those like you in me who've lost our wives' respect.

[whatisis]

Ahh yes, it's time to visit the OM again. Muddle, this seems to be the line you talked about on your other thread. You can't emotionally let her go enough to say "it's your choice" and then leave it to her. I know I struggled with this one at one time too. I was considering telling my W that she is free to spend as much time with OP as she wishes and that I won't stand in her way. My T suggested that I would be giving her permission to do something I view as immoral, how do I explain to my kids, when they're older, that Dad said it was OK for mommy to F around. I've left it to my W to make her decisions and live with her conscience around them. I, too, in the near future have to deal with my W's plans to spend a weekend with OP, it's tough. The choice is for me to say "if you go, don't come back" or allow her to make this choice in the hopes that the freedom it allows will help her recognize the wrong in what she is doing. If I stop her all she sees is me stopping her, she never looks at the A. It's a tough call. I choose to allow her choice and stay for my kids, but that's me right now. One day, I too, may have to draw the line as you feel you need to. Let me know how your T session goes tonight.

[MuddleThrough]

When you constantly allow someone else's feelings and moods to control you -- and you apologize for their feelings -- that's a definition of co-dependency. I say this as someone who was myself unknowingly co-dependent until a separation made me confront the fact.

RB, thanks for this attention to my sitch. I'm interested in reading that book and will email you shortly. I was a bit struck by this statement above. I am aware that in the past I played a part in the codependency by taking responsibility for her feelings and acted in an attempt to remedy her feelings. I have since stopped this practice (for the most part) and it's why I make the distinction when I tell her I'm sorry she feels a certain way. I'm validating her feelings but not taking responsibility for their existance nor fixing them. Is this codependent still? I'm not sure, but I think this is healthier.

The other side of this codependency issue for me is the co part of it. It's very clear to me where her dependency lies, but I'm not sure where it is that I'm dependent on her. I tend to think of myself as a very independant person, and the only real room I find for my dependency is with regard to my actions in the relationship. Knowing when to act or how to act, and even here, I'm not waiting to be told an agenda, rather I will respond readily to input from my W regarding tasks or issues I would often leave alone or not make high priority. I guess I'm due for some more reading on the subject.

[MuddleThrough]

You can't emotionally let her go enough to say "it's your choice" and then leave it to her. I know I struggled with this one at one time too. I was considering telling my W that she is free to spend as much time with OP as she wishes and that I won't stand in her way. My T suggested that I would be giving her permission to do something I view as immoral, how do I explain to my kids, when they're older, that Dad said it was OK for mommy to F around. I've left it to my W to make her decisions and live with her conscience around them. I, too, in the near future have to deal with my W's plans to spend a weekend with OP, it's tough. The choice is for me to say "if you go, don't come back" or allow her to make this choice in the hopes that the freedom it allows will help her recognize the wrong in what she is doing. If I stop her all she sees is me stopping her, she never looks at the A. It's a tough call. I choose to allow her choice and stay for my kids, but that's me right now. One day, I too, may have to draw the line as you feel you need to. Let me know how your T session goes tonight.

I'll post again about the session in more detail, but I wanted to respond to your point here. The last time she went, I told her I in no way condoned what she was doing, but I didn't impose consequences. This was later turned around (with her mother nodding her head in agreement after I made it very clear to her as well that I was in no way agreeing to this) saying that I was ok with what she was doing. I get the "your words said one thing but your actions said another." I refuse to leave any gray area this time. I am against this, and I don't want to be living with a woman who feels ok with running out to sleep with my cousin and actually does it. So, should she go, I will no longer live with her. Simple.

I am emotionally ok with her going. I'm not hanging on to her in a possessive way. Her priorities are screwed up. Our separation is contingent on her getting on her feet financially, which she's not doing, but she is spending her time trying to escape in fantasy. I can go either way at this point, I will consider working at rebuilding our marriage or I will move on and work towards a successful marriage with someone else. But she is keeping us in this state of limbo (I know I am keeping myself here contingent on her actions - it's my doing so I won't be resentful about it) and I refuse to accomodate her desire to go run off and have fun when she isn't doing the work she agreed to do. I'm not her father or her keeper, but I can clearly see where she's sabotaging her life and consequently mine, and I refuse to be a part of it. I will not cave on this.

The precedent has been set that if I'm not against them I'm with them. At least that's the way it's perceived. Knowing that, it does me no good to have my own justification and understanding.

[MuddleThrough]

I guess this is a tough time of year for everyone here. We had a decent weekend I thought, but it had its moments. We were doing some shopping together and got the tree and everything. All relatively good, but it did have a sort of pretending feel to it. Living a lie a bit. Last night, W came home from being out with her mother. I was laying on the bed watching tv. She had a couple of things that she brought in with her. I heard her fumbling around a bit, and her stepfather was with her (he had given her a ride home). She said a few things to me. Not too far into the conversation she started getting angry at me that I didn't jump up to help her. I told her that she had never asked, so I thought she had it under control. Besides, the one major thing that the therapist talked about at our session was asking for what she wanted. Yet she continued to be angry at me telling me that I just didn't get it and she should have to ask me for help. She got a foot switch for the tree and while plugging it in she bumped her head. This is where she really let me have it for not helping her. My lack of help caused her to be clumsy and bump her head and knock ornaments off of the tree.

So, let's see, I'm a worthless guy because I didn't just jump up and help her when she came in. And this is somewhat indicative of why I'm a worthless husband - because I don't take care of her wants and needs without her having to ask (or take responsibility for at all). Oh, and I didn't express enough interest in what she had brought home or done (it didn't cross her mind to ask how I was doing, or that I might have been exhausted and that's why I wasn't as enthused as I might have been otherwise). What is all of this "proving" - what's the perpetual question here? And why, might I ask, is it still being asked?

I know that my place here is not to figure her out, but I do take an interest in doing so. I have learned (and this has been slow in coming, but is significant for my life) to truly detach from her emotionally and to not take this stuff personally - but even more importantly, I have taken to translating her attacks into healthly criticism and evaluate it from my own standpoint. She's right that I'm sometimes a bit careless, forgetful, messy, clumsy - but I accept myself this way even while I strive to be better. It doesn't make me less worthy of my love or her love to act so. And this is really my next point. The fact that she is using someone's actions (in this case mine) to determine their worth as a person shows that she has thinks this way about herself. It's an unreasonable paradigm, and I think it's very unhealthy. But, just because she thinks this way doesn't mean I have to follow her lead and think the same way about myself. Even when she accosts me and berates me with her rage about how messed up I am and how I don't act like a "normal" person, or I don't do things the way they "should" be done, I don't have to dialogue with myself in this way.

I have always accepted my W the way she is. That's what she used to like so much about being in a R with me. I still do, and because she doesn't like who she is now, she blames me for not pushing her. I continue to accept her - but I don't need her, and I don't need to be in a relationship with her. Now, why does she care to keep arguing the point that I'm not worthy of being her husband? Is it because she's still asking herself the question? Why is it that she's always annoyed that I don't act the way she expects? It seems that she's trying to control me and trying to get me to be more someone that she would like to be with. Well, it's confusing to say the least. I don't know where her head is regarding our relationship. I can't say that I really think she is starting to consider working things out (I don't think she's strong enough to either break up with OM or me right now - and I don't think she's strong enough to go through the hard work of peicing right now either). Best not to think about what may or may not come - but rather to focus on the constructive things I can take away from this all. Still at it, but after spending a lot of time together and feeling my desires surface a bit, it's difficult not to.

[whatisis]

As always, Muddle, I know what you are living! My dilemma was always if I jump up to help you e.g. carrying laundry upstairs I'm saying "you aren't capable" so I would choose to ask if she'd like help. According to her i should just do things and not ask her. My W, as yours, expects me to know what she wants without any communication. It's so bizarre! Your W is just so into old patterns she just won't give them up despite the therapy. So, are you supposed to remind her? Good luck to ya! Yes, I don't know why they keep bringing up our "bad H" traits when they've already decided we're history! No solutions here, just empathy.

[believing_isaiah43]

Still checking in on you Muddle. You're putting your good insights to use in your own sitch. I'm glad your aren't rising to her bait(s) nor getting emotionally wounded by what she says to you. So important, and oh, so difficult I would imagine, to get there. Good for you!

Yes, I do understand about the 'fake' feeling of decorating for the holidays, and knowing how far you are from the Norman Rockwell ideal. For the first time in 6 years, H was home for tree decorating, and it was kind of anticlimactic. This year, rather than pull everything out for the tree/house, I went thru the boxes and culled only the ornaments that the children had made or were significant (with photos), and my favorite "our first christmas" ornament from the M. All the other fancy schmancy stuff, I left in the boxes. I just wasn't up for the 'show', only the most important things. Not unlike the rest of my life.
I like our tree so much this year, and it took a fraction of the time to decorate.

Anyway, I digress! Just checking in!

[MuddleThrough]

Thanks for checking in on me guys. I find myself asking myself the same question you were, Whatis: What's next? Where do I go from here? It seems that this sort of thing can go on forever - the situation is sort of being enabled. W isn't going to change her ways when it's more comfortable not to now. I'm comfortable focusing on myself and improving and living a live (for the most part) that I'm happy with. The trouble is that I want a good relationship. I want to be close to someone - namely my W - and I don't see things moving in that direction quickly enough, if at all. I know part of this is my impatience, but I'm not sure that I can maintain my faith that my W and I will ever be able to be a part of a great marriage without a significant change in the dynamic. Oh, and the celibacy is difficult too. Oh well - if divorce does happen, I've vowed to wait before looking for or entering into a new relationship, so it's not like that would bring me any closer.

I have a lot to be thankful for, but I want more out of my life. I know it's a long haul process, and I married my W knowing that she and I both had a ways to go to become great people. But we were headed there. I know that I'm working towards that goal now, with an open mind as to who I'm going to be with. But, it's hard not to succumb to entitlement thinking. Well, that's enough on my inner state.

Things have been ok of late. No major conflict, but I'm not shying away from it either. My W seems to take conflict as a sign that things aren't working, but I always try and look for the opportunity to come to a workable solution. She seems to use conflict to punish me for not having done what she thinks I should have in the first place rather than moving forward and getting something good done right now.

We decided that this year we are going to make gifts for people rather than buy a lot because we don't have a lot of money to spend. We bought a bunch of supplies (spent a good deal of money on these too) and started just a little. I created something that I thought was nice for one of my brothers. She called me at work yesterday very discouraged. She voiced over and over again that she was unhappy with how my creation had turned out and she expressed that she would be embarrased to have to give this to someone. I tried to explain that even though it wasn't perfect, I thought it was nice enough to give and it would help us with the next several projects. She was still really discouraged and seemed to want to scrap the whole idea of making things, but buying things was out of the question too. She was really frustrated and even a bit angry - overwhelmed by her emotions and unwilling to put them in check and forge ahead with the plan. I found this to be symbolic of our relationship because at one point I said that we just had to accept where we were and move forward with the projects knowing that they won't be perfect, yet doing our best to make them great.

Well, that's my rambling for today.

[MuddleThrough]

M: W, I'm going to stop at the store on my way home because we need bread for lunch. Would you like me to pick anything up for you?
W: Have you been eating my cereal?
M: Yes, I had a bowl.
W: Well, get another box, and I want you to know that I ration out my cereal, so I'd appreciate it if you plan on eating my cereal that you get two boxes. Otherwise get a different kind for yourself. [A week or two ago it wasn't a problem if I had some, and there was still some left when I got home with more]
M: Ok, I'll grab a box. Can I get you something for lunch? Would you like me to get you something in particular?
W: No. But there's nothing really here for me to eat. If I don't tell you what I want you're not going to get anything for me, are you?
M: No. I'm leaving here in over an hour. If you think of something you'd like, let me know.
W: That's a lot of pressure. You don't know me at all, do you? In 6 years together, you don't know what I like or what I need!

Well, that's it guys - I can't predict what my W will want to eat this afternoon, so I'm an incompetent husband. It's pretty clear that she doesn't know what she wants either, yet it's easier for her to blame me for putting her on the spot and giving her these bad feelings (I think she has some sort of eating disorder, because she eats only a very limited diet and she doesn't eat regularly - she doesn't take good care of herself and her needs aren't a priority - to her, not to me).

[osu43130]

Man Muddle,
You are such a horrible husband. He can you pick my up somthing for dinner? You know what I like.....

I think to an extent all of our W's are just flat out crazy. The seem to all have some type of mental problem right now and for some reason it is all of our faults. Go figure. However, we keep loving them unconditionally.

Keep your chin up brother.
O