Quote: P.S. BTW, because of my realization, I decided to actually THINK about what I wanted and I discovered that I was foolish to pass up a roll in the sack with my beautiful wife, as I'm sure you were all thinking there in the beginning...so I didn't pass it up.
OK, here's my guess about what was going on....
You did this most excellent introspective thinking. This led you to really feel as though you could be direct and simply tell W lovingly that you weren't up for sex and it would be OK. So, (1) you didn't feel coerced in your old passive aggressive way and, more important, (2) you felt the great feeling of intimacy that comes with understanding you can be truly direct and open with your W, which led to you feeling a bit randy That kind of intimacy is a remarkable aphrodisiac, to both men and women, how wonderful it has made its way into your M.
You forcefully (and I mean that in the nicest way) make me have to point out that much like when the "bad times" were upon me and all my posts were negative as hell, these relative "good times" cause me to gloss over the bad stuff more and more, and I assure you that there are still bad times but I don't sweat that as much as I used to.
For example. The day in question we had a pretty big blow out over some miscommunication that pretty much had us not talking for a few hours...
Then, the very next day after we ML (which, Mama, I hate to say it, is almost every other day these days, sometimes every day ) I was EXPECTING to go do something fun with the kids since I had worked 6 days and wanted to have some fun. Not unreasonable by any stretch, but it's how we both behaved that sucked. It became clear that the day was not going according to plan and we'd have to put the plans on hold. Instead of "rolling with it" I got in a mood, just like old times instead of just directly saying "Honey, I am just dissapointed, that's all" and instead of understanding it (even when I DID say that), she went at me about it saying how I am still the same as I was before. THAT pissed me off and we fought a bit but in the end, Mama...
Yes, right now, and that's all I can focus on, right now I do have a wonderful marriage because in it's context we can fight, ML, talk, share and parent, which is all I should have ever asked for. All the other crap needs to be left at the front door, which for the most part it is.
Thanks for the support but don't think my work is anywhere near done. I am still fighting for sure, only now it's to stay moving forward instead of just keeping up.
Quote: You did this most excellent introspective thinking. This led you to really feel as though you could be direct and simply tell W lovingly that you weren't up for sex and it would be OK. So, (1) you didn't feel coerced in your old passive aggressive way and, more important, (2) you felt the great feeling of intimacy that comes with understanding you can be truly direct and open with your W, which led to you feeling a bit randy That kind of intimacy is a remarkable aphrodisiac, to both men and women, how wonderful it has made its way into your M.
Yep, that about expertly summs it up OT. I would have to say that my really trying to figure out what I WANTED rather than what my current emotional/energy level was also played a large role. Truthfully, I didn't know how my being direct about how I felt would go over (since it was a weekend night and all) but I do know that my decision to be "open" to MLing was not because I was afraid of saying no, it was because I realized that my feelings for my W were more important/powerful than a few minutes of fatigue and "down" that I was feeling.
This idea, that all this time I had been doing VERY little to "get up" to the task, kills me. I would, at the slightest whim, allow myself to pass up intimacy and then blame it on her.
I no longer want to do that.
Also, I have been direct with her on a couple occasions and expressed that I was tired, etc. She has been fine with it.
One other thing she has been "ok" with (and was that night) is the idea that I am direct with her about being tired and that, shall we say, she will have to do a lot of the "work", something I WOULD NEVER HAVE SAID...nor would she likely have done, lol.
It is REALLY nice in general to be able to talk about this stuff openly. Remember, this is a HUGE change from the past where the topic of our SL was NEVER something we discussed.
I suspect this thread is going to lock soon - but there must have been something going on with the moon that night. I won't steal your thread but instead will post on mine - had a VERY similar situation happen to me Saturday (night).
Whoa. Great discovery however on your part.
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Quote: MY attitude and MY level of desire could be to blame for much of our strain in the bedroom.
Not to put "blame" but I can totally relate to this. And from a woman's perspective I can tell you that we (at least I know I do and I suspect other women do too) crave being desired by our spouses. When my H expresses desire for me then I'm like warm putty. Not feeling desired by him was really depressing over time.
I even remember discussing this. There were many long periods of time where neither of us felt very desired by the other. I think expressing it is very important. I've also learned as a wife who is not always so aggressive, I need to try and inspire that sometimes too.
You really did make an important observation! Good for you!!!!
Lots of communication, as well as some arguements and fighting, is healthy. Balance it out with friendship and a great SL and you have a good relationship!
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
Quote: And from a woman's perspective I can tell you that we (at least I know I do and I suspect other women do too) crave being desired by our spouses
H and I are getting along great in all other areas, it is killing me not being desired by him.
Quote: There were many long periods of time where neither of us felt very desired by the other. I think expressing it is very important
I have really never been the initiator in our M except for maybe the first year. How do I express my desire for H without it looking like too little, too late or that I am being desparate and needy?
That's interesting to me because in my M we always did it 3 times a week or so (sometimes more, sometimes less) but I ended up realizing that a lot of my HD was really just plain old loneliness and since the intimacy between my W and I had been obliterated I was just desperate to make any kind of connection I could, and she was desperate to keep the distance as wide as possible, and we both ended up using sex to do that.
I ended up becoming insatiable because I was never really getting what I wanted. She ended up having an A because she wasn't getting what she really wanted (acceptance and kindness).
What I've found is that as we've begun getting much closer lately, my sex drive seems to have actually decreased in a way, but my desire to just be with her, have fun with her, talk with her, laugh and joke like we do all the time now has skyrocketed, and when we do ML, it's waaay better than ever.
Interesting that many of these dissatisfactions with our spouse's level of interest or desire isn't really that at all.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
Quote: GH, I apologize in advance for the mini hijack...
Never a problem Mama, especially for you!
Quote: H and I are getting along great in all other areas, it is killing me not being desired by him.
This is a tough one, as it has always been in your sitch and mine because it means eventually you'll have to get to the root of what's causing the LD. In your H's case, it still very well could be the guilt and general bad feelings caused by what he did.
Quote:
I have really never been the initiator in our M except for maybe the first year. How do I express my desire for H without it looking like too little, too late or that I am being desperate and needy?
My STRONG opinion on this is that you just express how you feel, what YOU want. As I have said, the HUGE difference in my R with my W now versus before all this, is that she is 100% open about what she wants because she knows I will be...and because I WAS first.
It's like she needed permission to be dirty or something. Also, in order to be perceived as a sexual person, you have to actually BE one. That was big for me too. Sex to me was something I did from time to time but it wasn't something I WAS at any point.
I guess my advice, as I've given before, is to just express yourself. Tell him, IN DETAL, what you want from him and hell, if he won't give it to you, maybe that night in bed, you give it to yourself.
Make him understand that this isn't something you're doing to try to win him back, or something you're trying to change in the hopes it will improve your marriage. This is something that you WANT, almost NEED as a woman and if it's taken you this long to figure that out, oh well, but that past is the past and now you know you have urges, needs and desires you didn't understand before.
Be the instigator. Take charge and see what he does.
The sad, sad truth that we don't talk about much here, and even when we do, we deny a lot of the time, is that our spouses may have had some good, hot $ex with OP and the thought (once they get past the guilt, etc) of going back to the same old mundane $ex with us is not exactly a turn on. We spent YEARS finding creative ways to turn them off for SO long.
I know in my case, I had to make several 180's in this department and learn from her reaction to them before I found the keys that started her engines again.
Maybe for you it's talking dirty to him, or just taking his hand and putting it somewhere. Maybe it's a note left on the fridge, or just a look. The bottom line is that you have to change THIS area of your life just as much as you have all the rest...maybe even more. And, like all the rest of the changes, this one probably rests with you to start.
Quote: The sad, sad truth that we don't talk about much here, and even when we do, we deny a lot of the time, is that our spouses may have had some good, hot $ex with OP and the thought (once they get past the guilt, etc) of going back to the same old mundane $ex with us is not exactly a turn on. We spent YEARS finding creative ways to turn them off for SO long.
I believe this is the truth, in my sitch anyway. So I am going to have to 180 my butt off and not necessarily for my R/M but for me and my happiness and sexual fulfillment. For so long I have been someone's Mom, it is hard to differentiate that from being a woman or wife.
Quote: How do I express my desire for H without it looking like too little, too late or that I am being desparate and needy?
Have you ever expressed yourself sexually in a desperate or needy way? I'm trying to imagine what that would look like. I know this can be difficult because I do remember before the divorce wanting to be desired by my husband, but not having his interest and not knowing how to inspire it. I remember buying some sexy things, but feeling much too intimidated to wear them or feeling silly about the whole thing. That's probably what you mean by desperate. I can understand that.
Unfortunately, the only way I got to this point was divorce. And sadly that's how I've noticed other women getting to this too. Sometimes it's these life changing experiences that allow us to grow in unexpected ways.
I guess out of something really painful came something good. Anyhow, for me becoming a more "sexual" person meant getting rid of old ugly underware and replacing it with sexy stuff. Buying attractive clothing and looking less like "soccer mom" and more like a "sexy woman."
Sadly, it wasn't my husband that made me feel desired, but going out with girlfriends during my divorce, actually looking at other men (I'm oblivious to them during marriage!), and finally realizing that other men found me attractive and sexy that made me feel this way. Even though I didn't date other men, just walking into a Starbucks and having them turn around and stare, or smile at me and say something.... that is what made me feel more confident. Somehow my husband noticed the difference, and for the first time ever he actually became jealous!!!!
I don't know how this can be translated to your husband. I think just being sexy in general (without having to date others) is something that can be done. Even being slightly flirty with husband and even men in general (in a harmless way) can make you feel more attractive and confident.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
That kind of intimacy is a remarkable aphrodisiac, to both men and women, how wonderful it has made its way into your M.