With GH's permission, I sent his post to my H via email b/c I thought it was SO wonderful to see the progress that CAN happen in a M post-A, and there were several parallels to our situation. I waited to send it for a time I thought he would be ready to read it, and that turned out to be last night. Here's his reply:
I read this and immediately was thinking of us. While the male/female role was reversed, the issues seem to be the same. It is a lot to consider, but I am encouraged very much by their movement, via intimacy, towards a relationship that has been wrong for a long time.
Thanks for sending this to me. : )
Thanks, GH for being a good example to follow! The road is long, but I can see where I may end up if I'm blessed enough.
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
While it's probably a bit true that as my sitch gets better, I have less motivation to post, it's more true to say that my schedule and work issues are more to blame. I have gone through periods of time where I have posted less for the same reasons, this time is not much different.
I have NO intention of leaving this place anytime soon so don't think I am gone just because days go by without me posting a whole lot.
I hate to set myself up as some kind of expert, because God knows I am not, but if there is something you want me to look at, or a person you think might benefit from whatever help I can offer, please post it here and I will do what I can. I do check in now and then even if I am not posting.
Like I said, I am not going anywhere. I feel a tremendous sense of debt to everyone here, and the site in general for helping to save my marriage.
Mama, I think you are right. I think in the sense that this site portrays it, my divorce has been busted. I just want to refrain from putting it that way because more than anything, I am guarding against complacency and I guess I am still using the threat of my marriage ending as motivation.
I THINK I can truly say that the threat is not really there anymore unless there are forces at work I don't know about.
The sex life is better...WAY better now than ever before, the communication is better, even the fighting is better because I have learned not to take everything personally.
From my W's perspective, she is doing something she's never done much before, and that is thanking me for things I do around the house and in general. She is expressing love in my secondary language of "words of affirmation" and really it's something I never talked much to her about. She just started doing it. Maybe she IS paying attention after all, lol.
Thank you again and when work lets up, and the Halloween weekend/week is done, expect me around more.
Ok, this is something I was thinking about this weekend.
It seems to me that failure to succeed in saving a marriage can usually come in two flavors. First, that the WAS is already too far gone/committed to leaving the marriage. The second, and from my perspective, by far the most common, is the fact that the LBS is as much a WAS as the WAS is...let me explain.
So many times on these threads we see people decrying what their spouses did to them and how they just can't seem to get past it, to forgive them their trespasses. They keep saying "But she broke her vows. She f--ked another man" as if that somehow gives then exclusive dominion over the choice to leave the marriage. It's almost like the WAS flipped a switch, starting an inevitable process that ends in divorce, or at least that's how many LBSs seem to portray their feelings about the sitch. They feel that things are irreparable when in fact they are not.
The simple, inescapable fact is that for most, and I stress MOST WASs, the end of the marriage is at least as justified (and thus the affair) or MORE justified due to the months/years of "broken" vows THEY feel WE broke. Remember, the one about sleeping with another man/woman is not the only vow exchanged although many of us would like to think it is, or at least the most important of them. Many LBSs think it is the most important but when you stack two or three of them together, say loving, honoring, cherishing, in good times and bad, etc. then that one about forsaking all others seems to be out-gunned from the perspective of the WAS. All of a sudden, for the WAS, forsaking doesn't seem so bad when you feel unloved, un-cherished and not honored in the least, let a lone respected.
Sure, there are your cheaters who cheat just because they can, and for the LBSs of those exceptions to the rule, I doubt this site, these books, or anything else here will be of much help. For the rest, the marriage saving techniques we talk about here and try to practice COULD be the difference between two WAS's walking away from each other (because when a LBS gives up on the marriage, in essence not living up to that vow of "for better or worse", they become a WAS too) and two people, having made mistakes working toward saving something that was once worth everything in the world to each of them.
I thought of all this when I was shooting a wedding over the weekend and for the 7-8th time in the last two months, I witnessed two people exchanging vows. I heard how each vow seemed to carry weight, and how as each one was said, the bride cried more and more, the groom smiled more and more. Each vow was a piece in their marital puzzle and I sincerely think they meant all of them, not just that one we talk most about here. I saw them ACT like they meant each one as the day went on, as he opened doors for her, as she held him and loved his embrace, as they fed each other at the reception and dedicated songs to one another. I saw such love, honor, cherishing and dedication from each of them that I realized that take any of those components away and it would be noticed by at least one of them, if not both.
Something has been taken away in our marriages. We were hurt beyond our ability to express but we CANNOT forget that our spouses were hurt too, probably long before we were and whether we agree or not, they fully believe our transgressions of the pact of marriage, in the form of broken vows, gives them as much right to vacate the marriage as we think their infidelity does us.
We are not right any more than they are, nor are we necessarily in more pain than they are. We are simply on the receiving end of the broken vow with the highest visibility and worst PR spin.
Bottom line is that you either want to save your marriage or not. You can't control whether your spouse does or not. Obviously they cheated on you, or at least had an EA at this point so they are leaning the other way. You either want to nudge them back your way or the other, it's your choice but please realize that at some point, it IS your choice to make. You HAVE to decide one way or the other because to make no decision, to committ to doing nothing is the worst affront to yourself you can make.
Lastly, and maybe most offensivly, that part about them sleeping with another women/man being the deal breaker...sorry to be so rude/crude/heartless but I have never seen so many virgin brides/husbands in my life than those gathered here. Come on people, they slept with people before you and as long as they come back clean (as OT and others will tell you, get that part confirmed if you can), there really is no difference other than they promised they wouldn't do that after they married you...what did YOU promise them?
I can't say in the end if your efforts will be successful if you do all this DB stuff but what I can say is that if you don't decide you want to save your marriage, and committ to doing whatever you can to achieve that goal, you won't be successful in doing so.
Just remember this last thing; by choosing to save your marriage, you are really choosing to save yourself first.
GH
P.S. There, now that I have written my essay, am I off the hook Mama/PL? lol...
I think you're dead on the money here because, I'll bet in most cases, the M was dead in the water for months or years before the A. Maybe not always, but often. But the vows don't say, "for better or worse...unless she has an affair or he fails to meet her emotional needs..." There's not really an out clause, but I realize we're talking about choices and the quality of the marriage as well.
It IS a mutual responsibility. This stuff doesn't just happen overnight. For me it was a very gradual process...put the marriage in lukewarm water and slowly turn up the heat.
I *think* my divorce is busted and my marriage is saved. From everything I see and experience my W is both honoring her vows, honoring our "reconciliation agreement", and truly wants our M to be as good as it can be. But I think that's the rub: Many people don't want to "settle" for as good as it can be cause they're chasing an ideal situation.
Maybe not, but I think many are/do. I know I'm cherishing my wife and could probably win husband of the year right now. But there's a trust issue here that isn't easily overcome. I don't think it will ever be overcome, and maybe it is unrealistic to expect it to.
The thing is this: whether you come back "clean" or not (and my W did not), it's very difficult to get over the fact that, unknown to me, she was opening her body to another man (no condoms!) because, in her words, "I was on birth control, we were careful, and he's a respectable (heh) member of the community so you'd assume there's no risk."
Now the fact that the guy was clearly a liar and a cheater reduces his worthiness of anyone's respect. And yes, she's sounds like a complete idiot to think that. As I told her in the early days of this, "You're the most level-headed sounding flake I've ever known."
Not exactly textbook DB'ing, but it seemed accurate and relevant at the time.
Because although he was technically "clean" (jury's out on that in my opinion), she ended up with genital herpes anyway, and had it for a long time before she found out about it and told me. In fact, that's WHY she told me at all.
Now, that's a violent act that goes beyond a breaking of a vow. Mixing biological material like that and exposing it to someone without his consent is, in my opinion, a pathologically violent act, and my wife did this to me for three years because she not only assumed things but didn't have the common decency to avoid hopping between two beds (or invited someone into mind when I'm away on business).
That's a violation of trust and a breaking of vows, to be sure, but it's also something more fundamental which I don't think gets discussed enough. But when sex can not only transmit biomatter that can not only sicken but also kill you, doing what she did is sheer idiocy and, really, antisocial behavior with a complete disregard for my well-being. Even if she had used a condom every time it wouldn't have mattered, because her genital herpes was transmitted through oral sex because he had a cold sore, and a history of oral herpes anyhow.
Now, I was extremely destructive in our relationship, but I've never, ever exposed her to any sort of physical harm. In fact, I've always been very protective of her.
This is a huge issue to get over. She may never do anything like that again, I don't know.
I can trust her again because I choose to and, I believe, I'm obligated to, but she and I have a (currently) incurable reminder of this episode that has marked us physically for life.
Clearly, I'll/we'll never forget that, and I don't think I'll ever trust her like I did before, at least to the extent that I have full confidence in her taking my basic protection to heart. Maybe I'm wrong. It's only been 4 months. I DO believe she's learned her lesson in a big way, and she has been absolutely terrific during the last few months in getting past this.
I guess it would be different for me if she had simply refused to have sex with me (she never stopped in order to keep me in the dark that anything was different) while she was doing the other guy, or if she had been honest about it from the start. But she was a coward, a real chickensh!t; they both were.
But she gambled my health (and I'm diabetic) for her own selfishness and irresponsibility, and lost. I think I can live with it, but I don't know if I'll ever really get over it, and I think that IS worse than anything I *did or didn't do* to/for her.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. -- Inigo Montoya, 'The Princess Bride'
I am really so happy for you, GH. Getting this idea is such a huge milestone, and it is one everyone here really has to reach before they can really begin to work through the pain of what has happened. This is true of people who save their marriages and of of those who get D. It is one of the big keys to getting unstuck and making real progress in your life.
You did a great job explaining this *big idea*.
Welcome to a happy life!
Hugs, Oldtimer
P.S. You are right not to get carried away with feelings that everything is totally OK now... There will be some very hard times yet. The doubt monster still has a view good jabs to make. I expect that your anger is still probably supressed, rather than dealt with, and when it bubbles out you may be surprised. THIS IS NORMAL. My guess is that things will continue to improve and you will feel more and more secure as you an W build intimacy and a stronger M.
GH--haven't read your thread in a long time....first off, I am SO happy for you and your W in saving your M. You are definately on your way. She is a lucky and wonderful woman to have such a strong and dedicated H at her side, as you are to have her. She may have strayed, but she never fully walked.
Your essay was a wonderful inspiration. It's definately something I needed to hear now...I think in MLC land we see the "walking away" point come at a time people's sitches when staying is outweighed by the sacrafice of sanity and self in the process. BUT, you make an excellent point about forgiveness....and remembering that there was a seed in us, the LBS that was part of the whole thing.
I am struggling with that now, as things get crazier and crazier, and it was calming for me to read your beautiful words.
Honestly, I feel so lucky to have met, through you and these BB and in real life, many wonderful, amazing men. It's what keeps the door from shutting.
Holy insight, Batman! That was freaking BRILLIANT (and again, something I would like to post for the readers of my blog) - both GH and ToughLover are amazing in their willingness to step out of themselves and their egos/feelings to see the big picture of the ENTIRE marriage, not just this piece that garners the most attention.
Hats off to both of you; thank you for your continued posting here, for the eduacation and encouragement of others. <insert little bowing-down smiley here>
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
Wow! Was that a gift from God or what? I read your essay just before I went home last night and it gave me the humility and peace I needed to handle the conversation with my husband. Thank you for posting it, it hit home & just in time, too!
H-44 M-36 Married 6/7/03 8/17/06 - H not sure he wants to be married any more 8/17/06-present - Just crawling through the rubble that's left of my life 2/8/07 - H admitted affair
Quote: from the perspective of the WAS. All of a sudden, for the WAS, forsaking doesn't seem so bad when you feel unloved, un-cherished and not honored in the least, let a lone respected.
THIS is how the whole thing started, at least in my sitch. The LBS just needs to get past the victim mode of being "cheated" on and take a long hard look at themselves, it is then that they might see that they were a "WAS" first.
GH your post has made me finally face the fact that yes, I was the first WAS, long before her. Mine was subtle, over the years, hers was dramatic in the space of a week or two.
Would she have been WAS if I hadn't been first? I doubt it. I don't feel so good any more about revelling in the role of LBS. What an a**hole I've been.
Your posting has made me examine myself with more humility, and less self-satisfaction, and I will rededicate myself to making up for all the crap I laid on that girl, and on myself.
Oh man, can I say told ya so again?!!!