Sounding very good, except this bit: "She did end up going with us to the park and though she was miserable some of the time, she ended up having a good time. We did some house work together when we got home and I think it was all good."
??????... though she was miserable some of the time... it was all good....?????????????
Huh?
OK, repeat after me.
1. W would like some alone adult time when she is free from child care and family duties, including being a W.
2. W would like some alone adult time when she is free from child care and family duties, including being a W.
3. It is important to W to have a true day off on a *consistent* basis.
4. It is selfish of me to consistently put my need for together family time above W's need for alone time.
5. While I enjoy weekend family time, I can do more to make quality family time during the week so that my needs are met in a way that also allows for W's needs to be met (including a whole day on a regular basis).
6. I can also do more to give W true time off at least two nights a week.
7. My W wanting alone time free from obligation is perfectly normal and healthy. I will not personalize it and take it as rejection, which ruins any alone time my W may manage to get because I wind up acting out in direct and indirect ways that pressure her and make her feel guilty. I will not manipulate my W by using her perfectionist streak as a mother and wife to get my way.
7. My W deserves space for healthy adult alone time in which she can just "be" and choose her own projects without me trying to manage her time so the *I* can claim more of it.
8. I find joy in supporting my W by working with her so that she can find some balance in her life that includes time that is truly hers and empowers her to find more happiness.
9. I will appreciate my alone time much more than I have and never again take for granted the sacrifice W makes in terms of alone time, the possibility of which is so small and seldom realized.
GH, As usual OT is right on the money. Although I feel we need to create a healthy balance of family time, couple time, H time and W time. I too want to spend all my time with my H but have learned this is not healthy, it is codependant.
I have to say that now that I work I feel so much better. I have a life outside of our M and family. Also, when my S5 is in preschool I am alone to do whatever I want. I love this time and cherish it and have come to realize that I don't have to use this time to do housework. I do things just for me.
Reading your thread has caused me to come to the realization that my H also needs his alone time, hence the reason he went out after work Saturday afternoon. Because of my insecurities and wanting to keep a leash on him I caused unnecessary conflict (see my thread for details).
Again, I know you admire OT so I don't have to tell you how right she is.
Reading back over it, I realize I was VERY confusing in what I wrote and left out something very important from what I posted. Prepare for another long one...Part 2 of my journal as prompted by OT, lol!
My W said one of her biggest pet-peeves was that I have to have a plan, especially where she was concerned. She said that she would LOVE it if she could wake up one Saturday/Sunday and not feel like she had some obligation to live up to my expectations, my (or her's for that matter) plans.
She said, specifically referring to Sunday (the next day after our talk) that she really DID want to go but felt like she should stay and get things done but most of all, she wanted to be free to make HER OWN decision about that in the morning. I agreed with that, and also that I usually didn't really do to well when that was the case. I told her I needed to do a better job of letting our weekend time be free from the usual stressful morning times we have during the week.
In the morning, she slept in while I got up with the kids, something I do every weekend morning. I made sure they went in and gave her a hug, and then got them breakfast. After that, at around 9:00 or so, I went and laid down with her. She immediately asked if I was leaving already with a touch of "you rushing to get out of here so soon" (normally I would be gone by then if it's just us because I have been up since 7:00). I said no, just that they were occupied and I wanted to say good morning to her. We snuggled for a bit and then she asked me to make her some tea. I did and she came down. The kids and I were busy finding some specimens to look at under S6's new microscope, something that I'm sure she was surprised at...that I wasn't pacing, waiting to leave until she got up, said goodbye, whatever. The point is, I was having fun with the boys, not in a hurry to go, something that I doubt I had ever done, or at least not when there were plans to go somewhere. It was REALLY nice. Maybe there is something to all this relaxing stuff.
SO, she announces that she wanted to go and could we wait for her to get ready? I said sure and again, made it a point not to go into the bathroom 5 times to "get something", i.e. pressure her to hurry up. We just continued to do what we were doing. At one point she even asked if I still wanted to go. I asked why and she said "usually you're anxious, that's all." I said "nope, I still want to go but if you want to go too, we can wait." She smiled a LOT that morning.
The part about her being miserable was ONLY referring to some specific things like waiting in line, etc. I think she laughed and played with the boys more yesterday than she has in a LONG time and overall, despite the fact that she's not the biggest theme park fan in the world, she said she really had a great time, and that was even made better when I washed her car first thing when we got home (something she wanted to get done) and helped her with the laundry. It was a REALLY good day because I think she trusted me to relax and also to help out without an attitude at the end of the day. That's big for me AND her.
Quote: W would like some alone adult time when she is free from child care and family duties, including being a W.
We talked about this that night and I told her I noticed that after both of us acknowleging that she needed to have more "adult" time and go out with friends, etc, she only done it once and then stopped pursuing a "life" outside the house. She tried to blame in on her friends, etc, but eventually got around to saying she still felt like I suspected something every time she left the house, especially at night. I assured her that I did not and asked if my actions reflected that. She admitted they did and thanked me for that. I asked her to forgive herself and she said it was hard, and that she doesn't know if she will ever feel "ok" about all this. I said I understood and wanted to help her any way I could to feel like it was ok to live again, even more "ok" than ever before because now I understood what an a$$ I had been all these years.
She seemed to really appreciate hearing that.
Quote: 3. It is important to W to have a true day off on a *consistent* basis.
Well, as I said above, and I will add to now, I have been on her for weeks to continue to pursue "time off" but she chooses not to. She keeps saying OVER and OVER AGAIN that she only wants to go out maybe once a month. I AM THE ONE who says "No, go out once a WEEK, you deserve that."
I already went into why she says it is that she doesn't go out and I THINK she will make more of an effort now. I can't force her to do it. All I can do is make sure that my money is where my mouth is, i.e. don't be a passive/aggressive jerk who says "go out honey, I want you to have fun" and then when she does, freak out. Those days are done and I think she knows that now.
Quote: 4. It is selfish of me to consistently put my need for together family time above W's need for alone time.
It's REALLY hard to do this when I consistently try to give her alone time, when she wants it but then she asks me to either include her in whatever we are doing or asks me to stay around. It's like I can't win sometimes. Sunday I REALLY wanted to give her the time she asked for because I TRULY enjoy my time alone with the boys and she knows it, but when she decided to go, I wasn't going to argue with her even though I thought she was maybe falling on the "family sword" again. She said above all else, she wanted to feel free to either stay or go and I made sure I didn't do anything to make her think she didn't.
Quote: 5. While I enjoy weekend family time, I can do more to make quality family time during the week so that my needs are met in a way that also allows for W's needs to be met (including a whole day on a regular basis).
I would LOVE to let her have "whole days" on regular basis, and I think it's been pretty clear that I don't want to criticize my W in all this but I do want to point out that I get up and prepare the kids for school, then she takes them to school by 8:30am and picks them up at 3:30pm. Between dropping them off and picking them up, she has 7 hours of "me time". She almost never goes home, and when she does, she doesn't do any house work or anything like that. She/we always do that during "family" time in the evening. So between S6's various sports stuff and just general living, cleaning, cooking, etc, there isn't much time for quality family time.
I TOTALLY get what you are saying but there seems to be a lot of ways she could get her "alone time" quota filled other than me somehow making the day "free" for her. I will, however, make even more sure she knows she has the time to do that and that I am going to do my part to make it happen. It's still on her to take advantage of it.
Quote: I can also do more to give W true time off at least two nights a week.
Like what? I already look after the boys, by myself most every night while she sometimes cleans, cooks, rests, etc. I offer to help, or just help with most everything else like laundry, cooking, cleaning (I do the kitchen after every meal). What else can I do?
She claims to want me around MORE, not less, it's just that she wants to be able to have a choice as to when that is I guess. If I try to give her the entire day off, she claims I am avoiding her/leaving her "alone" in a bad way, if I am around, she doesn't have "me" time.
In the end, what she said on Saturday was that she wants me to be around but for all the tension/anger to be gone. THIS I totally get!
Quote: 7. My W wanting alone time free from obligation is perfectly normal and healthy. I will not personalize it and take it as rejection, which ruins any alone time my W may manage to get because I wind up acting out in direct and indirect ways that pressure her and make her feel guilty. I will not manipulate my W by using her perfectionist streak as a mother and wife to get my way.
This last part I will really take to heart. I have nothing to say to that because I think I do it. As for the acting out part, I really do think I have that under control. I speak my mind on most issues and if I don't, I make it a conscious decision to purge the thoughts.
I know it healthy for her to want her time to be alone and to see friends as it is for me to want the same thing. I just have a LOT of history to overcome to convince her that I will not be the same a$$ I used to be about this stuff.
Quote: I find joy in supporting my W by working with her so that she can find some balance in her life that includes time that is truly hers and empowers her to find more happiness.
I do, and I think she now knows that after Saturday's convo (really long before then but didn't realize it).
Quote: 9. I will appreciate my alone time much more than I have and never again take for granted the sacrifice W makes in terms of alone time, the possibility of which is so small and seldom realized.
I do appreciate MY alone time and always had, probably too much. As for her alone time, even though she gets 7 hours a day of "alone time", I still do try as much as I can to make time for her to do that, and until this post, I never really thought much about that 7 hours.
OT, I get how much work I have to do, but as usual, she has some work to do as well like learning to communicate directly and actually taking advantage of the time SHE already has to be alone.
I know I have more to think about now because of you OT. Thanks as usual, lol.
OH! I thought your kids were still at home. *Nevermind* to a lot of that, lol.
I did have one thought, though...
Quote: Quote:
3. It is important to W to have a true day off on a *consistent* basis.
Well, as I said above, and I will add to now, I have been on her for weeks to continue to pursue "time off" but she chooses not to. She keeps saying OVER and OVER AGAIN that she only wants to go out maybe once a month. I AM THE ONE who says "No, go out once a WEEK, you deserve that."
...
...She said above all else, she wanted to feel free to either stay or go and I made sure I didn't do anything to make her think she didn't.
My first thought here was that I would not want to have to get out of the house (go out with friends, for example, which is another obligation of a sort) in order to get an evening off. Sometimes, it is nice simply to be at home and not be on call.
But, it sounds like you (now) do plenty of evening child care, and she has several days free. Still, I expect she does more during the day than you think and that much of her time is spoken for one way or another. (NOTE: if so, alot of this is probably in HER control, she can choose not to take on obligations in some cases.)
Anyway, I guess it sounds as if you perhaps resent all her free time a bit (or maybe not, lol, as you also said you hadn't given it much thought). Anyway, if you are a bit resentful, this could be making you demanding in subtle ways of which you are unaware. Or, you might be anyway simply because it is pretty natural. Like, maybe when you are watching the kids in the evening, mom is still definitely "on call" for many various and sundry things that go beyond real emergencies. So, maybe one night a week, EACH of you could have evenings during which you are on call SOLELY for emergencies. This would mean, barring disaster, you are totally free to do your own thing. Your own thing might be to watch a video with the kids and spouse, or it might be to go through a closet, shop on the internet, go out with friends, *whatever*. The point is that there be no expectation or pressure to choose the spouse or family on that night, but make it really, truly a *free* night.
And, remember, free time IS NOT equal to time out of the house...
BTW, it sounds like she really DID want to go to WDW. She had the space to figure out what SHE wanted, and figured out for herself that it was to join you. That had to feel soooo much better for both of you than her going because she felt it was expected of her
Life with H and Newtimer is excellent. H is *great* in terms of our working together to make sure I have time off, even though Newtimer is still nursing. I really appreciate his efforts here so much. I can't imagine having a decent life with kids without this kind of support. Thus, my post to you (because I thought your tikes were still at home for some reason.) Hopefully, I'll be able to get a major project finished up in the next several months and we can start working on Newtimer's sibling
Ok, thanks for the clarification OT. Yes, I do think I resent her free time, and no, she does not do more than I think. She tells me what she does and it's not much. She shops, goes to the gym, has coffee, etc. She says she gets anxiety being home alone (which, BTW is why I thought it was funny that she was so adamant that she wanted to stay home on Sunday). Another reason I wish she would seek help for her panic/anxiety, etc.
As for us having set aside days to look after the boys while the other does "whatever", well, somehow she thinks that what she does in terms of the boys on a daily basis somehow affords her having me look after them anytime I am around, which is a lot.
I get them ready. She takes them to school (I do it once in awhile). She picks them up. 4:00-4:30 She is with them. 4:30-6:00 I usually take the little one with me when I take the big one to whatever practice he has. This is 4 nights a week. W stays home most of the time or joins us (her choice). Much of the time she cooks, 2-3 times a week including weekends we eat out. 6:00-6:45 or so, I bring them home and we have dinner. 6:45-7:00 or so I clean the kitchen. She usually lays down. 7:00-7:20 I give them a bath EVERY NIGHT. She may clean something or still be "resting". 7:20-8:00 We spend time with the boys together most nights, sometimes it's just me. It's almost never just her if I am in the house. 8:00 Bed time.
Of course, the times I am gone at night she does much of this herself and since I USED to be gone a lot, this was sometimes 3 times, on the extreme, 4 times a week but that was rare. The average was 2 times a week.
My point is that even by her admission, I am a GREAT husband in terms of what I do to "help" and that's in addition to working 40 hours a week at the "day job" and as much as 15-20 hours more on my wedding business. I have cut WAY back on my time away from home but I still work a lot.
I don't really know how much more I can do and for that matter, other than making up for lost time (i.e. revenge for all the nights she spent alone) I think the pendulum may need to swing in the other direction where I get free time FOR ME, even when it's the two of us at home because as it stands, if we are both home, it falls on my to do most of the stuff where the kids are concerned.
Thank you again for your comments.
I am SO glad to hear about the good times with the kid!
She is very lucky to have you, my H nearly busted an artery when I asked him to vacuum, (he's home only 2days due to training far away) he was supposed to do it last week but didn't, and the world will come to an end if where ever to give the kids a bath... arghhhhhhhhm whine whine whine, poor little me, buh-hu...Ok, feel better now
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
This sounds like you have had some BIG breakthroughs – good stuff.
A couple thoughts from what I have seen too as I work to rebuild. I think you are getting some great stuff from OT as well.
It is a HUGE trap that us Martians fall into – this thinking our W’s need space – WRONG and usually completely the opposite and it is all to easy to think that they need the space to figure things out – or that when we do take the time to listen that it is all about fixing their problems. Heck, that’s what we do right?
I have really tried to become an active listener – always leading with questions – really demonstrates that you are trying to UNDERSTAND – not fix, not judge, but understand. I remember back when WAW and I were separated and she would get home from work (I would usually ‘babysit’ the kids on those nights. I’d only give her a minute, and then I’d ask how your night was. W: “sucked”. Me: “Why”. W: “Because so and so did this..”. Me: “what do you think motivated that”. W…blah….blah. Then, M: “yes, I would have felt that way too”…blah..blah…
What I am also sensing in your sitch is something TJ and I peppered Xue about – and that is your W’s desire to “be taken on an adventure” versus “being the adventure”. Your best intentions were probably trying to find ways to “make her life better” – fact is sometimes living in the moment and taking an adventure is really what our spouses want. I have found this VERY true with my situation. I was ultraconservative, planning every step, etc. NO spontaneity. Now granted, W doesn’t do too well if it’s outlandish, so instead I try to plan events, then invite her along. That seems to be paying back well too.
I don’t know if you want some reading, but I suggest For Men Only by Feldhahn. It’s a quick and easy read – grounding in Mars/Venus concepts and I think really hits on some great things. If you read it, you will likely have a light bulb go off about the way you W was “moody” at WDW – too many windows open.
Hope that helps some….
Sven
Never sacrifice the great for the good. Sometimes the beauty of grace is that it makes life not fair.
Substitute "H" for "W" in that 1-10 list I gave you and give it to W to read.
This whole time, I was under the impression that you used to be gone 5-6 nights a week and had cut back to 2-3 nights a week. You must have been pretty frustrated reading my post, lol.
It seems YOU are the one that needs some free alone adult time without needing to have an excuse to get it (like work). Maybe YOU would like a free night or two in the house. Criminy.
I'd put this on your list sooner rather than later. The resentment DOES and WILL CONTINUE to creep into all sorts of areas (you know this). This is another thing that you need to create a boundary about.
The idea about each of you having one or two nights a week off might still work. (Of course, yours shouldn't all be eaten up by work.)
BTW, it occurs to me that all that free time your W has may very well not FEEL free to her, in which case it really doesn't do that much good. She may feel that she should be doing all sorts of things during the day that she isn't getting done. Same thing at night when you are home, she may not FEEL free any of that time, perhaps because she feels guilty about not sharing the load more reasonably.
(Think about a day that turns into a week that you fritter away at work when you have something important you should be doing. It doesn't FEEL like you had a week off and a lot of free time. If anything, at the end of it you feel like you have even less time.)
Anyway, time to take care of you some. Tackle it as a shared problem (which it is) -- both of you need more guilt-free alone/adult time that isn't eaten up by obligations.
Also, time to stop enabling your wife's disfunctional life. She needs to get help. What is going on with that?
Quote: Also, time to stop enabling your wife's disfunctional life. She needs to get help. What is going on with that?
P.S. I wrote that because her inability to enjoy her free time during the day at home is likely a BIG source of this problem in general. Have you ever tried to spend the day out doing whatever because you can't go home (for whatever reason)? I can only imagine that doing this everyday is NOT particularly fun, relaxing, or freeing, but rather some kind of private hell.
Thanks all for your input. It's really given me a lot to think about.
Quote: P.S. I wrote that because her inability to enjoy her free time during the day at home is likely a BIG source of this problem in general. Have you ever tried to spend the day out doing whatever because you can't go home (for whatever reason)? I can only imagine that doing this everyday is NOT particularly fun, relaxing, or freeing, but rather some kind of private hell.
Make no mistake about it OT, THIS is the major source of my W's problems. She has anxiety/panic/depression or some combo of those and refuses to get any help for any of it. Sure, it's not debilitating but it is damn near so and it's making our reconciliation go much slower than otherwise, IMHO.
I don't have much time but I do have a lot more to respond to.
