I meant to post a smiley face after that comment to indicate a tongue in cheek remark. I don't really mean for it to sound sexist:
But I am also male, you are female. We will see things differently for that reason alone. Yet in spite of this handicap you have I still highly respect your insight and POV and are in awe of the incredible trauma you have overcome in your past to arrive at such a healthy and balanced place that you are now.
I feel like you want to shove this method down my throat, get me to see it as you do, claim it to be, by far, the best method found so far. That attitude alone prompts me to rebel, for I find it personally insulting.
Let me follow up on my question to you. Your statement above is actually a good example in that I do not think you are being honest. There is nothing in anything I have said that makes the claim you state. How you say you feel is only your interpretation. Why?
What led me to my statement was in you saying this:
Quote: The reason I am pressing this attachment idea is that I truly think it can help others on this board. It can be like an enhancer, a turbo boost to other methods.
Quote: You may feel I am pushing it down your throat, I do not.
The word 'press' to me is very similiar to push.
Quote:
Quote: But why you feel the need to rebel is unclear.
Quote: I feel like you want to shove this method down my throat, get me to see it as you do, claim it to be, by far, the best method found so far. That attitude alone prompts me to rebel, for I find it personally insulting.
I have not rebelled, and I have not gotten pissed, even though I may initially feel the urge to do so. Remember that I also said:
Quote: I resist, however, because I don't think you mean to insult me, nor anyone else here.
Quote: That feeling comes from somewhere within you, and is the very point of why attachment theory is so important and powerful, why soothing your partner is so important.
I didn't need you to soothe me nor to validate me, but thank you for the offer. I resisted all on my own. I see that you have a POV, and have found a way that is really working for you. Though we may not be taking the same road, and may argue over semantics... to me, doing so is a waste of time... and that is my very point.
And I so very much appreciate your willingness to affirm me. Thank you. Seriously. We didn't even argue here. How wonderful are we?
Quote: BTW, I have no Idea what "mu" is.
I'll explain later because I have to run, unless Hairdog is lurking and would do me the honor of explaining it for me.
On the nature of MU and regard to our discussion... you asked me this question:
Quote: So you are just reacting because you feel I am testing one of your buttons of your solid sense of self?
I answered mu. If you go back and look at our exchanges prior to this remark, you may understand why I responded with Mu, which is a reply to a Koan, or a paradoxical type question.
To answer Mu is a response to answer neither yes-nor-no: Mu is not as unusual as it first seems. There are many everyday questions that we would not want to answer either yes or no to. Consider the question: "Have you stopped beating your dog yet?" Now it is notoriously easy to invent a situation in which either a positive or a negative answer to this question is misleading. Either answer will mislead if I ask the question of a devoted animal lover, someone who would never mistreat any animal. If I was to demand a yes or no answer from a such a person they would be in a situation equally perplexing as the question you asked me: any response I make will be misleading. A positive answer has the implication that the mis-treatment once took place and has now ceased. Whereas a negative reply implies that this non-existent mistreatment is still continuing.
The difficulty with answering this question for a pet lover is that the question itself sets up a misleading picture of things. The question implies the existence of something that has never taken place and any response only seems to place one more firmly within that view of things.
Mu, as a response, questions the question: To ask for an alternative way of picture things. This is also implicit in the notion Mu. To answer a question with Mu (to say neither yes-nor-no) is to deny the validity of the question itself. Mu is a call for the question to be unasked, for what you initially questioned never took place.
(meant to post this last night, but apparently I didnt hit the continue button.)
I really appreciate your post cobra.
Happy belated Birthday to you. Karen and Lils are coming up sometime soon. there was some other scorps (damnsexfreaks )floating around, but I cant rememberwho. Thats the only reason I remember, I really suck at dates. In fact I got married on the 25 cause it was the same day as my Bday. easy to remember.
Thats really cool about the camera, Im sure youll annoy the heck out of your kids with it. I havent gone SLR yet, I just use one of those altoid tin sized ones. I wish they just put 4mp on my cellphone allready, like Japan has.
I do not think depending on females necessarily means having a fear of abandonment.
Good. I dont like the word dependance, but I think I get the feeling from what you are saying, and its close. I would have phrased it another way, but whatever works for you.
I was rather surprised she wanted to spend this money, since she had recently been arguing over money (the van title, house down payment, etc.)
Yes, the intimacy, appreciation and respect that come, after a fight, when we stick to our boundaries is not easy to make a direct correlation too. Thats what makes it so difficult and why it creeps over time.
Your 'lower level' alpha, is the harder one to implement, for most guys, and it is also causes the more profound sexual response. Once you have that lower level firmly established to your standards, and know yourself, then you will see-have seen- your feelings of 'what does she WANT from me' dissapate. That state of mind is highly fused, needy and drives you to supplicate and placate. If you ever hear that from your inner voice, its time to do a some serious introspection on why your boundaries are full of holes.
Once you know yourself and have boundaries firmly in place, you start requiring, instead of seeking. It looks and feels completely differant to both people. Once you require, only then will your needs start respectfully being met,(and its not cause she likes it in the beginning, but it comes with the respect) the continued testing, loses its intensity. People talk about the sexual ferver of new R's. I disagree. A woman is extremely hesitant and nervous sexually initially, but does it because of her admiration and trust. Once that trust is justified and combined with familiarity, then the sexual reservations are removed. This is even more true with LDF. Whenever you break that trust its going to go right back to hesitant and nervous, untill admiration or respect is reestablished.
but you are an avoider, the one-up. Your ex was the pursuer, making her one-down. I’m not sure if she was a fearful or anxious attachment type of person
First, I agree with Burgbud's assesment on the passion book. I dont like it because it puts the H/W into a competitive and combative frame of referance. Just the wording UP and DOWN. No one wants to be down. (burgbud, finding out your OM gave that to your W. <headshake> he is a conniving ba$tard. I feel for you) I dont see any solution in every interaction requiring someone be the down/loser.
I think its much healthier to see the H/W as a team. sometimes your teammates make a big enough OOPS, that the whole team suffers. who's fault is it though? the person who called the play? or the person who dropped the ball? Sh1t happens. its a team. You shout, glare, and then regroup, and put together a new plan.
I dont see myself as an avoider. I spent a lot of time on this when you first posted it. back in the day. yes, definitely. before I was engaged. a little. Not after. I wouldnt have married. I would not have worked on the R, like I did, if I was. In our M, I did have too much of the power, and when she would take my crap behavior without calling it crap, my desire would lower from lack of appreciation. I will say that I will not allow myself to want. If I want somethign out of my control, the internal voice sets up a beating that is much worse then the 'loss'. Is that why the D was so painful? Knowing that you could have done some things to pursue on your part seems to have been a source of regret for you It was painful cause Im human. Brain chemistry. Opiate withdrawals hurt.
Somethings Dr. Harley said, made me realize my belief that I was being differentiated, was in fact, poor headship and not protective not cherishing, at all.
basically I took the tact that mojo mentioned in Haps thread. I think is a really bad idea for men- no offense, mojo I understand you intention of self improvement- but I did a variation of your idea
after we reconciled and discussed it? Nope. not acceptable. I dont regret dropping it. I regret not being differentiated enough to retain control of my emotions. I cant deal with Marital infidelity. Thats who I am, I know it now, and I accept that about myself. Now that I know, I have a plan in place for dealing with it.
Pursuit and wanting are weak. I use to think so, pertaining to R's. But if I flip that to determination and desire, then suddenly it becomes a strength.
Ive done a lot of clearing out of some old self limiting beliefs I had, and found some new confidances and awarenesses, that allows me to see rejection (my perception) from OP in a differant way, and stops it from having any affect on me. In fact I want to share, when rejection truly has no affect on you, and you continue in your efforts anyway, WITHOUT infringing, a whole new way of compassion and understanding others fears opens up. I wish I could describe it in more detail, but its like corris sig. Just contemplate, rejection is NEVER about you. Its always about the OP fears. They are doing it to protect themself. and when you dont react or personalize, you can see exactly what those fears are. When you see what it is you can communicate (with actions) that their fear is unfounded. Even if you cant see them, your non reaction leaves them nothing to focus on other then there reaction. You can completely drop it and move on, but they sure wont. It leaves the OP ruminating on themself.
I think that is why you test so much. It keeps a certain distance between you and the woman. I also think that is why you draw such a hard line on values
My testing is two sided. The negative one actually shows an insecurity. by continuing to do it, It demonstrates that I want validation of my value, instead of confidantly owning it. Constantly receiving validation creates a sort of... expectation, entitlement, addiction to it. ask HP. she knows what I am talking about. HP, origianally showed that this was an insecurity too me, when she discussed a book she was reading about wildness in men. Deida helped me even more with this. Ill post about another of his essays soon.
Ive been thinking about the IDEAL of differentiation for several weeks myself, although on a different path then you. I dont see any demarcation between ideal differentiation and sociopathy. The only thing that prevents this positive concept from becoming alienated, or 'dark' is values/morals. Morality is a self imposed boundary. I digress.
Like Heather, your ex was your first love, right? eh... ... I was with a girl for three years long before x. she had eating disorders. we hooked up, she quit, she started , she quit, we got engaged, with a caveat, she started, I went to AK. I helped best I could, told her she had to work on her. not really pertinent, or the place for, my experience(s).
If you date another avoider, the minute you go into your cave, she will walk, because that is her way of avoiding too. apparently I married an avoider then. Like I said, I read it, but it doesnt really give me anything tangible of substance to work on. Ive said what my mistakes were. Insecurity. betaizing myself to see her reaction. Nop was very clear about this in his post to me too. or you will need to learn to pursue yourself, to open your universe to more than just pursuing women.
I like myself alot, but not that much. HAHAHA. It makes it very hard to avoid myself. HAHAHA. 'Pursuing women'? I thought you just said I was an avoider?
Relax, Im just messing with you.
Are you saying you are not ready to learn what you think you need to learn? No. I was saying I want a woman who makes her love a choice. and that wont happen cause a woman is not a man. Same thing you are trying to do, with different concepts and methods. Better to focus on being the best I can, and let her take care of her stuff. Everytime I do that, there is no worry. Everytime we are the best we can be, the love us to pieces.
Women do the same thing, always trying to get the man to show them love they way they feel and give love. (betaizing) The very act of telling their man what to do, how to do it, and why he is not doing it right is betaizing him. If he does it, he loses. If he doesnt, she is unhappy/ he loses.
Blackie, What a great post! So much to sink my teeth into and so uncharacteristic of you.
Your very last sentences have me in a tizzy. I need clarification. You say don't tell a man what to do. Are you referring to things like "I need you to hug me when I'm upset" and pukey things like that? (relax, corri, I'm joking. sort of) Or are you saying that I, as MrH's cohabiting partner, shouldn't make requests of him?
Here is an example: As you know, D7 is homeschooled. We have to get an early start or BabyPot ruins the scene with her antics. So I bought D7 an alarm clock and set it for 7:00. There were several days where she was MIA and I kept getting on her for getting a late start. (her bedroom is upstairs so I can't hear her alarm go off) It turns out that H was turning it off because he felt sorry for her having to get up and start school at 7:00. !!!!!!! Needless to say, this approach didn't work for me. I'm the one schooling her, so I get to say when she gets up. Furthermore, if you are going to turn off the alarm it would be prudent to at least TELL me so that I'm not riding D7's behind about it. Anyway, I made my request nicely, albeit through gritted teeth, and it has not been an issue since.
Soooooooo. Betaizing him? Dammit, I do not want to do that. I crave an alpha man so much it makes my teeth hurt.
Everyone approaches things a little differently and different paths will lead to happiness for different people.
That said...DB doesn't lead you into your head, it leads you into action....the idea is that you can keep analyzing the reasons you're in a certain place in your relationship, but that doesn't necessarily lead you to the actions that will work for you.
But you don't have to wait to understand it before you take action. In fact you won't anyway....you will be doing something....but if you always do what you've always done, you'll most likely get the response you've always gotten.
sg Love is PATIENT, love is KIND, LOVE never fails / DB since 2001
you have I still highly respect your insight and POV and are in awe of the incredible trauma you have overcome in your past to arrive at such a healthy and balanced place that you are now. 
Like I said, I read it, but it doesnt really give me anything tangible of substance to work on. 
