(meant to post this last night, but apparently I didnt hit the continue button.)


I really appreciate your post cobra.

Happy belated Birthday to you. Karen and Lils are coming up sometime soon. there was some other scorps (damnsexfreaks )floating around, but I cant rememberwho. Thats the only reason I remember, I really suck at dates. In fact I got married on the 25 cause it was the same day as my Bday. easy to remember.

Thats really cool about the camera, Im sure youll annoy the heck out of your kids with it.
I havent gone SLR yet, I just use one of those altoid tin sized ones. I wish they just put 4mp on my cellphone allready, like Japan has.

I do not think depending on females necessarily means having a fear of abandonment.

Good. I dont like the word dependance, but I think I get the feeling from what you are saying, and its close. I would have phrased it another way, but whatever works for you.

I was rather surprised she wanted to spend this money, since she had recently been arguing over money (the van title, house down payment, etc.)

Yes, the intimacy, appreciation and respect that come, after a fight, when we stick to our boundaries is not easy to make a direct correlation too. Thats what makes it so difficult and why it creeps over time.

Your 'lower level' alpha, is the harder one to implement, for most guys, and it is also causes the more profound sexual response. Once you have that lower level firmly established to your standards, and know yourself, then you will see-have seen- your feelings of 'what does she WANT from me' dissapate. That state of mind is highly fused, needy and drives you to supplicate and placate.
If you ever hear that from your inner voice, its time to do a some serious introspection on why your boundaries are full of holes.

Once you know yourself and have boundaries firmly in place, you start requiring, instead of seeking. It looks and feels completely differant to both people.
Once you require, only then will your needs start respectfully being met,(and its not cause she likes it in the beginning, but it comes with the respect) the continued testing, loses its intensity.
People talk about the sexual ferver of new R's. I disagree. A woman is extremely hesitant and nervous sexually initially, but does it because of her admiration and trust. Once that trust is justified and combined with familiarity, then the sexual reservations are removed. This is even more true with LDF. Whenever you break that trust its going to go right back to hesitant and nervous, untill admiration or respect is reestablished.

but you are an avoider, the one-up. Your ex was the pursuer, making her one-down. I’m not sure if she was a fearful or anxious attachment type of person

First, I agree with Burgbud's assesment on the passion book. I dont like it because it puts the H/W into a competitive and combative frame of referance. Just the wording UP and DOWN. No one wants to be down. (burgbud, finding out your OM gave that to your W. <headshake> he is a conniving ba$tard. I feel for you) I dont see any solution in every interaction requiring someone be the down/loser.

I think its much healthier to see the H/W as a team. sometimes your teammates make a big enough OOPS, that the whole team suffers. who's fault is it though? the person who called the play? or the person who dropped the ball? Sh1t happens. its a team. You shout, glare, and then regroup, and put together a new plan.

I dont see myself as an avoider. I spent a lot of time on this when you first posted it. back in the day. yes, definitely. before I was engaged. a little. Not after. I wouldnt have married. I would not have worked on the R, like I did, if I was. In our M, I did have too much of the power, and when she would take my crap behavior without calling it crap, my desire would lower from lack of appreciation.
I will say that I will not allow myself to want. If I want somethign out of my control, the internal voice sets up a beating that is much worse then the 'loss'.
Is that why the D was so painful? Knowing that you could have done some things to pursue on your part seems to have been a source of regret for you
It was painful cause Im human. Brain chemistry. Opiate withdrawals hurt.

Somethings Dr. Harley said, made me realize my belief that I was being differentiated, was in fact, poor headship and not protective not cherishing, at all.

basically I took the tact that mojo mentioned in Haps thread. I think is a really bad idea for men- no offense, mojo I understand you intention of self improvement- but I did a variation of your idea

after we reconciled and discussed it? Nope. not acceptable. I dont regret dropping it. I regret not being differentiated enough to retain control of my emotions. I cant deal with Marital infidelity. Thats who I am, I know it now, and I accept that about myself. Now that I know, I have a plan in place for dealing with it.


Pursuit and wanting are weak. I use to think so, pertaining to R's. But if I flip that to determination and desire, then suddenly it becomes a strength.

Ive done a lot of clearing out of some old self limiting beliefs I had, and found some new confidances and awarenesses, that allows me to see rejection (my perception) from OP in a differant way, and stops it from having any affect on me.
In fact I want to share, when rejection truly has no affect on you, and you continue in your efforts anyway, WITHOUT infringing, a whole new way of compassion and understanding others fears opens up.
I wish I could describe it in more detail, but its like corris sig.
Just contemplate, rejection is NEVER about you. Its always about the OP fears. They are doing it to protect themself.
and when you dont react or personalize, you can see exactly what those fears are. When you see what it is you can communicate (with actions) that their fear is unfounded. Even if you cant see them, your non reaction leaves them nothing to focus on other then there reaction. You can completely drop it and move on, but they sure wont. It leaves the OP ruminating on themself.

I think that is why you test so much. It keeps a certain distance between you and the woman. I also think that is why you draw such a hard line on values

My testing is two sided. The negative one actually shows an insecurity. by continuing to do it, It demonstrates that I want validation of my value, instead of confidantly owning it. Constantly receiving validation creates a sort of... expectation, entitlement, addiction to it. ask HP. she knows what I am talking about.
HP, origianally showed that this was an insecurity too me, when she discussed a book she was reading about wildness in men.
Deida helped me even more with this. Ill post about another of his essays soon.

Ive been thinking about the IDEAL of differentiation for several weeks myself, although on a different path then you. I dont see any demarcation between ideal differentiation and sociopathy. The only thing that prevents this positive concept from becoming alienated, or 'dark' is values/morals. Morality is a self imposed boundary.
I digress.

Like Heather, your ex was your first love, right?
eh... ... I was with a girl for three years long before x. she had eating disorders. we hooked up, she quit, she started , she quit, we got engaged, with a caveat, she started, I went to AK. I helped best I could, told her she had to work on her. not really pertinent, or the place for, my experience(s).

If you date another avoider, the minute you go into your cave, she will walk, because that is her way of avoiding too.
apparently I married an avoider then. Like I said, I read it, but it doesnt really give me anything tangible of substance to work on.
Ive said what my mistakes were. Insecurity. betaizing myself to see her reaction. Nop was very clear about this in his post to me too.
or you will need to learn to pursue yourself, to open your universe to more than just pursuing women.

I like myself alot, but not that much. HAHAHA. It makes it very hard to avoid myself. HAHAHA.
'Pursuing women'? I thought you just said I was an avoider?

Relax, Im just messing with you.

Are you saying you are not ready to learn what you think you need to learn?
No. I was saying I want a woman who makes her love a choice. and that wont happen cause a woman is not a man.
Same thing you are trying to do, with different concepts and methods.
Better to focus on being the best I can, and let her take care of her stuff. Everytime I do that, there is no worry. Everytime we are the best we can be, the love us to pieces.

Women do the same thing, always trying to get the man to show them love they way they feel and give love. (betaizing) The very act of telling their man what to do, how to do it, and why he is not doing it right is betaizing him. If he does it, he loses. If he doesnt, she is unhappy/ he loses.

Tell her to knock it off.