Re Cobra I’d also like to hear more feedback from other long time posters on this board. It is very curious to me why there has been such a lack of comments on this thread. Cobra, I am sort of burnt out right now so don't have the energy to post much. I would like to know, learn and practice more R skills but for me, I have hit a mini-wall called "take care of myself" the BB/OP isn't going to do much to improve the R unless something drastic happens.
We all saw the episode on Dateline in which two couples went to see Schnarch. And, Yes, that is where I am also going over. I have the follow up interview Dateline did with Schnarch. I am hearing something that relates to our M each time I re-listen to it. ( MP-3 file on this page http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13907213/ ) I asked BB to give it a listen but it isn't happening. I am not asking anymore.
....learn to hold onto himself and find the security he needed within himself and then be able to give that back to his wife. .... but I am seeing this as a bigger and bigger flaw in the differentiation theory. Attachment theory is making this flaw seem ever more clear Yes, learning to hold on to yourself (HOTYS) is a big help. I see the connection to attachment theory and HOTYS
The book I am reading puts forth a very strong case that trauma victims are MUCH more successful at recovery if they have a close partner bond with whom they can face the “dragon” (as Susan Johnson calls it). I would think, Snarch's and Johnson's terms could be combined effectively.
I see where some books like MWD's advocate "baby steps" and Schnarch advocates bold moves to break gridlock. I suppose each has it's place and limitations.
From what I read in your post, is Shnarch methods needs more support for one spouse during times of change.
I can certainly understand you getting tired… when you recharge, think about how much heat you have turned up in your crucible with BB and whether it is enough to push past the inertia. Too low a heat setting may mean you can get things rumbling a little but never get over the hump. I suspect BB’s heat tolerance is much higher than yours and higher than you suspect. She always seems to come out ahead through attrition…. so when are you going out to look for patio homes???
Re Cobra so when are you going out to look for patio homes??? Maybe when I am ready to give it a try her way, hoping something will be different and I am also ready to move on if it doesn't.
So far, during this R repair stuff, I gave up half of my customers, spent a lot of time on the inter net, read many books, took lots and lots of time posting and reading that some work that should have been done, isn't done. I have to get my time back in balance more and do more actual work, here at home.
I am doing that a little more and that is one reason for me not posting as much.
Cobra, it is good to see you making progress and I thank you and others for sharing what you learn.
*waves* and thanks for the link. I have a slow modem so I cant watch the video well, but the audio will be here eventually
Quote: to give it a listen but it isn't happening. I am not asking anymore.
Lou, I'm so sorry. I don't know anyone who has "willed" sucess to happen more than you. You seem to have put in the maximum effort. For it not to work for you, is so discouraging. [[[[[[hugs]]]]]]]]
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
Lou, what was that title of the thread where you started to do for you?..Cleaning Closets?...
Well the "office turned junk room has one wall bare!" I've washed the kitchen ceiling and altho slower (try scrubbing overhead for that psoas!...slowly is a great stretch since you have to arch....ouch, can't wait for the hot tub,( a normal tub, that dream is nowhere near being realized).
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
This post is not a comment on marriage vows, or what 'should be'.
The attachment theory approach seems to turn a lot of what we have been preaching on its head. It certainly flies in the face of some of what Schnarch proposes. Is that such a bad thing?
I dont know. Is it bad? I thought you liked Schnarch. I know I do.
It seemed to me that the H was needing a mother figure to give him the support he needed. His wife played into that role, but when she came to realize what was going on, she stopped, basically demanding he grow up and take on his adult leadership role. This was too much for him and he seemed overwhelmed. He could not ascend to that role on his own, especially with the growing resentment in his wife. It was just too scary. I believe that is why they eventually divorced.
Many men have defensive attributes that make them appear masculine. Thru the intimacy of a LTR a woman will eventually see the difference between a insecure defense, and true mature masculinity. In their case (pretty common) once this happened, he was unwilling to step up and grow, had no ability to implement boundaries to protect himself (due to his need for a mother/comforter)from her haranguing and she had no ability to have trust and desire for him (her biological need to have a man- a strong protector) There is no right, or benefit in expecting something from her that he couldnt accomplish.
For example NOP was able to turn his sitch around, exactly because he is a alpha male prime. All strengths are also weaknesses. In men like that its usually selfishness that over time becomes a LB. Lots of situations (usually not important in the mans opinion) putting themselves first over the woman, creating resentment. In most cases, when she becomes LD out of resentment, they just move on.
I dont see that being the case in most of the situations here. In most here there is a lack of selfishness (people pleasers), placating, supplicating, man servant activity.
Chrome is a interesting exception. He has very little insecure defensiveness. His masculinity is mostly mature. He goes and gets what he needs. But somewhere/how he learned or was forced to use supplicating and found that hiding his desires was necessary and an effective survival strategy. He does well eliminating it, right up untill he thinks he will be 'punished' somehow.
Schnarch seemed to just accept this outcome as a consequence of the man’s failure to confront his issues, to step into the crucible, do the growing he needed, learn to hold onto himself and find the security he needed within himself and then be able to give that back to his wife. I recall his almost lack of concern
Yep. seems reasonable to me.
If he needs a mother he should go home and live with her. Or more realistically- live on his own and learn to take care of himself. If he cant take care of himself, how can he take care of his wife/SO? Of course a equal amount of that is her perception abilities and focus.
but I am seeing this as a bigger and bigger flaw in the differentiation theory. I dont see it as a flaw. I see it as dealing with 'what Ii'. Schnarch is a well respected pro. Even if my synopsis is incorrect, he obviuosly saw something we dont.
What if he were able to focus on the need to basically grow up, but with the support and comfort of his wife. This is a great idea. Looks good on paper. Heck even our marriage vows suggest such a thing. Sounds like a great woman. She is probably with a great man. Its sounds differentiated. Any Idea why Schnarch didnt focus on the wife working on being differentiated? He needed support and comfort. no arguments with that part.
What if her needs preclude her from being able to give it?
Then he needs to get a therapist, or some male friends to work on it with.
I wonder if this approach would have saved the marriage of that couple, instead of throwing the H out on his own to come to terms with his weakness and grow on his own.
He wasnt willing to do it with her. He hadnt changed in all the time they were together previously, when she was supportive. He didnt change when she was mad. So why would she think he is going to change? So he gets to do it on his own. or not. Most men dont change. You can either change or wait till life forces you too. Most people like to wait and continue to get what they always got.
If you want to work on 'should be's' do me a favor and get Bush to stop his obsequious behaviour, whilst dismantling the Constitution. Its incongruent. Im starting to get cranky about it, and ready to go gather my 'indian' bretheren and have a tea party. If he is going to keep it up, at least have the balls to wear a blue helmet while he is doing it.
Well its about time I got around to responding to you.
the way you phrase this you are giving your wife all the power. Instead of having your boundaries, and giving her Choices
We have both moved along in setting and respecting boundaries. We state what we will or will not do, and pretty much leave it at that. Sometimes I feel she makes demands at strategic moments, knowing the alternatives are limited. That feels like manipulation. I call her out on it and confront why she is doing so. I cannot let these things slide by or she will see the green light to repeat them again. Confronting her does seem to help.
There is no manipulation in a boundary. It shows who and what you are, it demonstrates personal strength and power, and lack of fear of the outcome, which a woman does want to see from a man so she can surrender to him.
That is different then what you want from her. That is essentially my disagreement with how I see you handle things. Your not trying to give her what she wants, your trying to force a situation of 'equality' where she soothes you and you soothe her. That forces her to be unfeminine. You can accomplish that, but you will kill her desire. Thats not going to help you accomplish your goal-- A mutually fulfilling sexual M.
I’m not sure I see this the same as you. I do understand what you are saying and if it were anyone else, I would be in complete agreement. But she still seems to be wrestling with her insecurities, one of which is accepting strength, support and guidance from a male. The very thing that gives most women comfort is what she hates. She is already in the “unfeminine” camp. I am trying to find a way to coax her to open up and get in touch with her feminine side. Going through the motions can help her desensitize her resistance, learn that it is safe and try new ways of thinking and feeling (I hope).
To ask her to just become a woman and accept the strength I can offer is to put WAAAY too much pressure on her. She becomes the recipient of the attention, the spotlight is on her. To many women, this is just what they want. But for my W, I think her self esteem is too low to handle it. It makes her too uncomfortable. What she really wants (at least in her mind) is to be treated like an equal, like a man. There seems to be an internal struggle between being treated and nurtured like a woman on one hand and her perceived lack of respect for SAHMs and women in the workplace on the other.
Essay 20 by David Deida 'Dont Suggest that a Woman Fix Her Own Emotional Problem' ( I read his book 2 weeks ago --its most excellent dude ) tackles this subject. I really recommend you get it, Id love to find a forum or discuss it with you some other way.
I don’t have any Dieda books, but I have ordered “The Way Of The Superior Man: A Spiritual Guide to Mastering the Challenges of Woman, Work, and Sexual Desire."
When you soothe yourself via Schnarch, you are tackling you own insecurities and demonstrating to her, what she wants to receive.
This seems to be the case only to the extent that soothing myself then takes pressure off of her to offer soothing, acknowledge my needs, or make compromises. She would be quite happy if I just learned to suck everything up, control my anxiety and let her do what she wants. That would be optimal for her. But it ain’t gonna happen.
Whatever your insecurity is she knows and wants to eliminate.
I agree she wants to eliminate it, but only because I make it a thorn in her side and not because she desires strength from me to then give comfort to her (because of the above rationale). If I didn’t make it a thorn in her side, then I think she would be in her optimal state.
Validating you does feel good. WOA. <insert warm fuzzy> It is a healthy thing for her to learn and a respectful way for her to handle it. It does not 'purge the issue' IMO, becasue it still gives her the power over your emotional state. Witholding it changes your emotional state. They do not want that power. Thats why they 'test' and check to see if they have it.
But this is really my point, in that I do not believe “holding onto yourself” as Schnarch proposes does anything to really purge the issue either. It is just accepting that you cannot change an issue. You may still be unhappy and have resentment over it, but you make a decision to capitulate and accept your lot anyway. I do not see how this changes whether she has emotional power over me or not. She has influence in deciding whether she wants to compromise. If she decides not to, it tells me something about her frame of mind. I feel less commitment and concern from her. That bothers me. If she does compromise, I get another message, one of caring and a willingness to be a “team” player. That comforts me.
I understand you saying that how I feel is not her problem. But I think it is, just as how she feels can be my problem. If I am unhappy, the relationship is stressed. If I am happy, the relationship is smoother. That has a direct impact on her. The reverse is true too.
The only way to purge her “power” is to capitulate. But even then, I can harbor resentment because I concede to something I disagree with in order to preserve the relationship. Plus I have the added irritation that she is not “on board” as part of the “team” and concerned about team (i.e., my) morale.
So I believe the only “fair” method is to split the compromise, share the capitulation and any resentment. After what we have been through I cannot see this being worse than each of us trying to get everything our own way. So to us, the semi-capitulation could actually feel a little like bonding.
Why do you fear the fighting? Havent you noticed that after you fight there is a greater intimacy? That a compromise is the result? Can you learn to have arguments, without lossing control of your emotions, frustration anger? If you can see that it is a opportunity instead of a loss of control and power, it will change your whole perspective on fearing conflict. That happens by having the courage to have conflict and express your self.( i.e. corris recent posts)
I do notice that things improve after a long discussion, which is the main reason I press for these talks. Usually something is bubbling for a while, we grow distant, then one of us erupts. It is the time just after the fight, when I am thinking about D, whether to call the lawyer or not, what will come of the kids, etc that creates the greatest anxiety in me. I am consumed with anger, feel the butterflies in my stomach and cannot sleep well. My only conclusion is that this reaction is fear based.
The problem as I see it is that when she gets mad, all reason flies out the window and there can be no compromising. There is no team, no bond. She falls back to a hard position, so I do the same. I reading the book “Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy with Trauma Survivors”, it says on p. 48:
The survivor as an individual and the couple as partners may never have known a safe attachment bond and may, in fact, have relatively rigid attachment styles that make the creation of such a bond difficult. In these cases, the lack of any kind of attachment security and the ongoing relationship distress seem to actively perpetuate the effects of trauma, and the effects of trauma perpetuate the relationship distress and the partners’ insecure attachment styles. This becomes a self reinforcing cycle that undermines other interventions, such as the survivor’s individual therapy. The partner may also become vicariously traumatized. Both partners end up absorbing states of insecurity and negative cycles of interaction that confirm the world and others as dangerous and themselves as helpless. Inner and outer patterns perpetuate themselves. There is no exit or respite. In this situation, trauma renders the need for safe attachment urgent and, at the same time, frames attachment relationships as direct sources of danger. The attachment figures becomes at once the source of, and the solution to, alarm. Both partners are caught in a paradox.
The anxiety described here is lessening in our marriage. We are getting better at arguing, so there is a little light at the end of the tunnel. Plus I think she is slowly coming to understand my position a little better and not pushing to always “win.”
I do not worry about fighting per se, especially fights with others. In that way I even enjoy some conflicts too, just not with family. The fear I talk about is because I cannot identify any other reason for my emotional reactions. It must be fear.
I dont disagree that you should require validation. I do think you should stop trying to 'fix her' and expect her to see, act and respond to situations like you do. If she breaches a boundary of yours, it is going to cause a feeling. You should do something about it. If she leaves you, (or when she threatens) it will (can) cause an emotional loss. Thats not her problem to fix, anymore then your grief is the responsibility of a loved one who dies, nor necessarily a breach of your boundary. It just hurts, and means your human.
I want to add --- how you deal with that hurt, and demonstrate control over your emotional state, and specifically her control over it will either kill her attraction or allow it to resume.
I understand where you are coming from and the idea of putting forth an attractive, non-supplicating image to her. That is an objective of mine, but at this time, It think it may still be too early in recovery to makes this a top priority. I think it extremely important she understand MY POV, my needs and learn to be more empathic to me. She demands the exact same consideration of me, and even seems to “grade” how well I do from week to week, so this is a good chance for me to pull the same consideration out of her.
I thought you liked Schnarch. I know I do.
I do like Schnarch and still completely believe in his methods. But as I’ve mentioned, I see some gaps in his approach. The example of the interracial couple on Dateline is just such a case.
Regarding the interracial couple on Dateline: Many men have defensive attributes that make them appear masculine. Thru the intimacy of a LTR a woman will eventually see the difference between a insecure defense, and true mature masculinity. In their case (pretty common) once this happened, he was unwilling to step up and grow, had no ability to implement boundaries to protect himself (due to his need for a mother/comforter)from her haranguing and she had no ability to have trust and desire for him (her biological need to have a man- a strong protector) There is no right, or benefit in expecting something from her that he couldnt accomplish.
Personally I think this is a little harsh. I am not so sure his problem was the inability to implement boundaries or protect himself, but an inability to fully recognize and address his inner fears. He was living a false life. He gave me the impression of being an outgoing, personable people pleaser, but that was a means to gain acceptance from others. He needed the form of attachment o make him whole. Inside he was apparently very weak and once his wife pull back on her support and told him to stand on his own, he collapsed.
This is precisely where Schnarch fails. His inability is not something he could address by simply holding on to himself. I believe he wanted to do everything he could to save his marriage. Schnarch’s methods were asking him to grow into something that he simply did not have the building blocks to do.
I saw this as no different than asking as traumatized child (say suffering from PTSD from warfare) to get his/her act together and become a confident person. It can’t happen. There is too much shock, fear and no security at all. As Johnson calls it in her book, the “dragon” is too overwhelming and the trauma victim needs as much help and support to create the building blocks (the security to overcome the fear) to then grow into an alpha male type. Do you see my point?
For example NOP was able to turn his sitch around, exactly because he is a alpha male prime. All strengths are also weaknesses. In men like that its usually selfishness that over time becomes a LB. Lots of situations (usually not important in the mans opinion) putting themselves first over the woman, creating resentment. In most cases, when she becomes LD out of resentment, they just move on.
Yes, NOP was able to present the alpha image which lent security to MrsNOP. But once she learned of his hurt from reading the board, she realized his insecurity and offered him the soothing he was really asking for. Essentially what she did was to address his attachment issues. NOP put her into the crucible in order to make her confront her choices, but she responded. If she had not responded as he wanted, if she had not addressed his insecurities, but only worked on herself, stayed detached sexually, would they still be married today? She heard his SOS and responded to recreate the emotional bond he was needing.
Chrome is a interesting exception. He has very little insecure defensiveness. His masculinity is mostly mature. He goes and gets what he needs. But somewhere/how he learned or was forced to use supplicating and found that hiding his desires was necessary and an effective survival strategy. He does well eliminating it, right up untill he thinks he will be 'punished' somehow.
Yes, Chrome has HAD to learn to get what he wants. No one else would do it for him as a child. His intelligence, logic and self discipline served him well in staying focused on what he needed to do to move out of his childhood misery. But it is his attachment fears that come back to haunt him, that cause him to pursue in a semi-panic mode. And as relationship dynamics seem to always do, he ended up with a wife you gets overwhelmed and runs, perpetuating the cycle.
If he needs a mother he should go home and live with her. Or more realistically- live on his own and learn to take care of himself. If he cant take care of himself, how can he take care of his wife/SO? Of course a equal amount of that is her perception abilities and focus.
Again, I understand what you are saying here, but I am now coming around to the understanding that we men all want a mother figure to take care of us. We look to our wives to fill the role in one form or another, just as they look to us to be the alpha male. Why is that model so attractive to women? Because it is the ideal model of safety that girls want from a father. So what is wrong with men admitting to the same need for security from their partner? As adult men, this translates into the couple’s emotional bond not literally being mothered.
I dont see it as a flaw. I see it as dealing with 'what Ii'. Schnarch is a well respected pro. Even if my synopsis is incorrect, he obviuosly saw something we dont.
I know Schnarch is a pro, but so is Bradshaw, Gray, Gottman, Hendrix and all the others. They are not wrong, but the field continually evolves and even Schnarch’s views will be built upon to the point they may be outdated one day. I fully expect this to happen so I don’t take his approach as the only available gospel.
Sounds like a great woman. She is probably with a great man. Its sounds differentiated. Any Idea why Schnarch didnt focus on the wife working on being differentiated?
I think Schnarch did focus on the wife. She realized she was promoting his dependency and cut it off cold turkey. That is where I think the mistake was made, and it obviously was a mistake since they got divorced. If she had phased out of her mothering role, would their marriage have survived (assuming the H did his part of growing too).
What if her needs preclude her from being able to give it?
I think she had trouble in giving the type of healthy, less enmeshed support he needed while still being emotionally vulnerable to him. BUT, if she could acknowledge this weakness and whatever needs she had, as he would have to do, they MIGHT be able to see themselves as a team trying to slay their dragons together. Schnarch’s methods seem to require each partner slaying his/her dragons individually, which is what his version of holding onto yourself sounds like to me. I see no reason this can’t be done as a team.
He wasnt willing to do it with her. He hadnt changed in all the time they were together previously, when she was supportive. He didnt change when she was mad. So why would she think he is going to change?
I don’t think this is totally accurate because earlier he was not consciously aware of the dynamics, nor was she. Their roles need to be revealed and all the layers peeled back and identified so that they can know what it is they need to work on. Even after the follow-up visit to the couple, I am not sure they were fully aware of why they were reacting as they were and pulling back behind defensive walls. So how could they possibly fix anything? As we all are learning here, everything seems to boil down to education.
So he gets to do it on his own. or not. Most men dont change. You can either change or wait till life forces you too. Most people like to wait and continue to get what they always got.
Yes, but ideally I think a complete approach should include this probability and address remedies to plug the gaps and prevent divorce. Schnarch seems to know these problems exist, but I do not recall any discussion of how to address them. His answer seems to be that people need to grow and they can do so in the marriage or out.
If you want to work on 'should be's' do me a favor and get Bush to stop his obsequious behaviour, whilst dismantling the Constitution. Its incongruent. Im starting to get cranky about it, and ready to go gather my 'indian' bretheren and have a tea party. If he is going to keep it up, at least have the balls to wear a blue helmet while he is doing it.
Uggghhhh! Don’t get me going on Bush. Folks here in Texas thought he was God’s gift for some reason and the only thing I could see that he did when governor was suck up the lieutenant governor (who holds the real power) and get a concealed handgun law passed. From the sound of the latest polls, you may have a lot more people joining in on your tea party.
I feel she makes demands at strategic moments, knowing the alternatives are limited. That feels like manipulation. I call her out on it and confront why she is doing so
It probably is. She wants to know how you will react. They way you are currently is good IMO. Her button pushing, will most likely lessen over time, but it most likely will never go away. That is slightly wearing, but actually a good thing.
she still seems to be wrestling with her insecurities, one of which is accepting strength, support and guidance from a male. The very thing that gives most women comfort is what she hates.
Nod I agree completely. I personally believe they hate it because it has so much power over them. If its bben used against her to her detriment in the past of course she will resist. They distrust it because of past experiences. Then when they surrender they end up disappointed some way. Thats partly their fault, for losing themselves in the R, but it is how they are made. She will if you consistantly present a firm boundary that is not hurtful to her. If you have good intentions, and you realize this, it enables you to be considerate, understanding, kind in your approach. Its a test. Pass it with a smile. It is about her fear.
To ask her to just become a woman and accept the strength I can offer is to put WAAAY too much pressure on her Yep. Agreed again. Can you change her response to her fear --without intellectually verbalizing it to her? That is real communication.
She would be quite happy if I just learned to suck everything up, Mostly yes, but not at the expense of your needs. control my anxiety yes and let her do what she wants. NO NO NO definitely not. When she is disrespectful to you as a man or a Husband it is not what she wants you to allow. That would be optimal for her. But it ain’t gonna happen Thank GOD.
I agree she wants to eliminate it, but only because I make it a thorn in her side and not because she desires strength from me to then give comfort to her
Well of course its a thorn in her side. But try assuming the good. She wants you to eliminate it because she wants a strong confidant H. Who will be able to support and comfort her. It is helpful, although the tact she tacks is not. That is what you can focus on. Her tactics. How She TREATS You. Which come from your Boundaries and telling even if it requires confrontation. Its exactly what she does want to know, ane will generate feelings of respect in her.
holding onto yourself” as Schnarch proposes does anything to really purge the issue either
Well, speaking of male mammals, hoding onto themselves means they are not dependant on females. That would mean no fear of abandonment. So that is your issue to purge via courage. You are a great H. Your a good provider, hard working, your care about your children, you desire a good R with your W. You have value. Find it in yourself, and your W will see it too.
If she does compromise, I get another message, one of caring and a willingness to be a “team” player. That comforts me. Give her things to do, that make her a team player. Tell her explicitly what you want from her. Besides sex. Appreciate it when she does them. Realize she does it becasue she wants to be a part of your team.
Plus I think she is slowly coming to understand my position a little better and not pushing to always “win yes and possible she is respecting that you are not going to capitulate and that your boundaries are real, however you are demonstrating that fact.
the idea of putting forth an attractive, non-supplicating image to her. That is an objective of mine, but at this time, I think it may still be too early in recovery Cobra! You have allready done that. It was the first thing you did before the crucible and the turnaround. When you started fighting with your wife instead of withdrawing in resentment. When you filed for D and made a clear statement that you require specific things from your M, even when you put her in Jail, those are all extreme forms of boundaries. There was no supplication of placation in any of that. Though extreme and hopefully not repeated, the state your M was in required some extreme action on your part. You allready started. and she pretty much immediately agreed to resuming a sex life with you too though it may not be very emotional or perfect.
but that was a means to gain acceptance from others. He needed the form of attachment o make him whole. Inside he was apparently very weak and once his wife pull back on her support and told him to stand on his own, he collapsed.
This is precisely where Schnarch fails. His inability is not something he could address by simply holding on to himself. I believe he wanted to do everything he could to save his marriage. MWD says a marriage requires to whole people. He had the option to suck it up with his wife there or on his own. He didnt do it with her there. He wanted to hang onto his wife because he needed her. She didnt want a child, she wanted a man she could have children with. If he wanted to save his marriage he would have quit working on the R- by grasping at something he had no control over, and started working on himself. When a man is allready needy and placating, its gonna be impossible for him when abandonment and loss is kicking his ass.
I understand what you are saying here, but I am now coming around to the understanding that we men all want a mother figure to take care of us. Speaking for myself... I dont. Unequivocally. Ive got a great one allready All I do want is a woman who can leave me alone, and hold onto herself, during the times when I am am working on me and in my cave. Undoubtedly that happens when she needed me the most too. Thats why the compulsive testing for a strong man. Thats why insecurities crash. Thats why differentiation is important.
Why is that model so attractive to women? Because it is the ideal model of safety that girls want from a father. So what is wrong with men admitting to the same need for security from their partner? I dont think thats why, but what security do you need from your wife? Do you need security, or do you just need to have an external sense of value. I dont have any security need from a woman. There is nothing from a security viewpoint that they could provide me with. Neither my safety nor my survival would be affected. I take my desire for value validation too far. I know that. now. Im a 'great catch', but then I always surround myself with 'alpha men' in whatever aspect I think I am lacking in. Thats not a bad thing, its very effective for self improvement, but Oftentime I will even suppress aspects of myself, self deprecate while aggrandizing the OP, just to see how the woman reacts. Then I judge her perspective abilities and control. when they are not satisfactory, <poof>. I test to much.
As far as the Nop's, Im not going to dissect there sitch anymore then I allready have. I really respect their accomplishment and their knowledge. I learn something everytime they post. You have put your W into a crucible too, and she has responded. Its not quick. Its not easy. It has no end. Its not a destination to reach.
As Johnson calls it in her book, the “dragon” is too overwhelming and the trauma victim needs as much help and support to create the building blocks (the security to overcome the fear) to then grow into an alpha male type. Do you see my point? I do agree that true masculine maturity is a process that does require and is a result of growth and experience. For example men and women mistake emotionally withdrawn and unavailable men for the truly attractive emotionally imperturbable. If the man is incapable of doing this while he is with the woman, she is doing him a favor by leaving him and forcing him to deal with it on his own. She is not in most cases doing herself a favor. It sure helps with biological diversity though. Most women would be better serving themselves and their M, by actively and consciously deciding to seperate from their H to see if he will change. But they need that security so its much rarer to see a woman seperate without someone in the wings then it is a man. Thats what my experience has seen. I do see your point, and dont disaree in the sense of a committed R/M. I do know what women respond to and desire though. and thats not it. I do think I need to move in your direction in requiring more awareness from a woman, instead of just doing what they unconsciously react too. I would like awareness, but its impossible to teach untill someone wants to learn it. I havent read Gray, blew thru Gottmans stuff. As a Man I really appreciate Dr. Harley, and Hendrix conscious loving concepts. The little I comprehend women, I really like MWD approach aand of course Deida's. I enjoy Schnarch from a clinical healthy pysch approach. I firmly believe that emotional equivalents attract one another. His approach also doesnt live much room for misinterpretation or tactical type implementation and the resultant incongruence.
Once you have a womans attention, and respect, in most cases they will assume the position of R monitor and caretaker. Play your part, and let her assume hers.
Well, speaking of male mammals, hoding onto themselves means they are not dependant on females. That would mean no fear of abandonment.
I don’t know that these two go hand in hand. I do not think depending on females necessarily means having a fear of abandonment. In fact, that would be closer to the ideal, and what I understand interdependency should be all about.
Give her things to do, that make her a team player. Tell her explicitly what you want from her. Besides sex. Appreciate it when she does them. Realize she does it becasue she wants to be a part of your team.
This past weekend was my birthday (I spent it cleaning the carpets in the house, though the whole family went out for dinner Sunday night). W and the kids took off Saturday afternoon while I was in the thick of tackling the steam cleaner. The girls wanted to find something for my birthday present, but couldn’t come up with anything, so W just came out and asked me what I wanted. I mentioned a few minor personal items, but then said I was trying to save up for a new digital SLR camera. I had been feeling bad about not having as many good pictures of the kids when they were small. The recent trip to Hawaii resulted in some good, some bad shots. As much as it costs to go on trips, it was worth it to get a decent camera. She then called around and decided to try and buy a new camera for me, about $750. I was rather surprised she wanted to spend this money, since she had recently been arguing over money (the van title, house down payment, etc.)
So I took this as a positive sign of wanting to be a team player, and took her up on her offer. I ordered the camera on-line this week and also bought some lenses to go with it.
Cobra! You have allready done that. It was the first thing you did before the crucible and the turnaround…..
As I stated on Mojo’s thread, IMO, there are two levels to the alpha male. The lower level is more power based - setting boundaries and enacting consequences. I see that as a prerequisite to the higher level – showing the compassionate, caring, slightly aloof but nurturing side. I have been able to implement the lower lever, but do not feel I have truly met the requirements of alpha male on the upper level.
Speaking for myself... I dont. Unequivocally. Ive got a great one allready All I do want is a woman who can leave me alone, and hold onto herself, during the times when I am am working on me and in my cave. Undoubtedly that happens when she needed me the most too. Thats why the compulsive testing for a strong man. Thats why insecurities crash. Thats why differentiation is important.
Blackfoot, I’m going to challenge you on this one. When I say all men want a mother figure (and women want a father figure) you know I don’t mean that literally. But I also don’t think you want a woman who leaves you alone. Sure they need to respect your space when you need it, but you are an avoider, the one-up. Your ex was the pursuer, making her one-down. I’m not sure if she was a fearful or anxious attachment type of person.
Now, since you are an avoider, you have no choice but to pair up with a pursuer. If you date another avoider, the minute you go into your cave, she will walk, because that is her way of avoiding too. This means your relationships will either have a woman pursuing you, or you will need to learn to pursue yourself, to open your universe to more than just pursuing women.
But remember, all avoiders actually want the pursuit. Once the pursuit stops, the reality of abandonment sets in. Isn’t that what happened to you with your ex? Is that why the D was so painful? Knowing that you could have done some things to pursue on your part seems to have been a source of regret for you. Don’t go back into that pit.
I see great advantage to this alpha male philosophy, but I am also wondering whether this is your way of justifying the avoidance of intimacy. Pursuit and wanting are weak. Differentiation and a certain distance are strong. You are self reliant, self made, no help from your family, no safety net like others may have had. You were out there on your own and had to survive. Be tough….. sounds a little like that avoider wife of mine.
Now don’t get me wrong. This is not meant to be an attack in any way, just something to think about.
I dont have any security need from a woman. There is nothing from a security viewpoint that they could provide me with. Neither my safety nor my survival would be affected. I take my desire for value validation too far. I know that. now. Im a 'great catch', but then I always surround myself with 'alpha men' in whatever aspect I think I am lacking in. Thats not a bad thing, its very effective for self improvement, but Oftentime I will even suppress aspects of myself, self deprecate while aggrandizing the OP, just to see how the woman reacts. Then I judge her perspective abilities and control. when they are not satisfactory, <poof>. I test to much.
I think both you and I are confident in our abilities. We have each proven ourselves and do not need validation from others to confirm that. I think our soft spot, like everyone here, is in allowing ourselves to be vulnerable and loved. Instead we hold to a fantasy of ideal love and the ideal woman. I think that is why you test so much. It keeps a certain distance between you and the woman. I also think that is why you draw such a hard line on values, why adherence to your values “prevented” you from even considering reconciliation with your ex.
Personally I believe many of us go through a learning experience with our first love. It opens us up to then know ourselves better and grow to take on a second, more mature love. Like Heather, your ex was your first love, right? Even though you knew the psychology of women well, your training ground was really your first marriage. Other people may be lucky enough to date around more at first and endure their first heartbreak before getting married. They learn a little about the compromise required in a relationship, become a little more realistic in their hopes and expectations and settle into a more stable marriage. Then there’s the rest of us here on this board!
I dont think thats why, but what security do you need from your wife? Do you need security, or do you just need to have an external sense of value.
I think it is a realization on my part, after sifting through my anger and fears, that I really want someone to want me, that I want to feel needed and included. I do not think it is not to give me a sense of value. I think I have that. It is to give me the sense of love and closeness I have always wanted, that I have always hoped for. I suppose it is in part chasing the dream as a child of escaping from the fighting in the home.
I do think I need to move in your direction in requiring more awareness from a woman, instead of just doing what they unconsciously react too. I would like awareness, but its impossible to teach untill someone wants to learn it.
I’m a little confused with this statement. Are you saying you are not ready to learn what you think you need to learn? Why?
Just talking out loud here, but I think when Cobra brings up that we seek the mother/father in our spouses, he may mean that men want emotional nuturing and support from their Ws, and women want direction and encouragement from their Hs. So long as neither is taken too far.
For example, BF, you want a woman who can hold onto herself and leave you alone when you go into your cave. Looking at this as a woman who is raising two sons... to me that means... giving my son a pat on the back as he finds his way...("you can do this, I know you can) but not 'babying' him while he does it. I give him room to be grumpy but not disrespectful. When I see him becoming disrespectful, I do not 'overpower' him (unless I have to in order to maintain the very clear line of parent/child), but I do put a stop to it immediately... in my own respectful way. He is a person, afterall, not just my son.
On the flip side... I think women enjoy the aspects of a father figure in the sense that they like to be heard (validated, but not necessarily capitulated to... i.e., that is a valid point and I promise to consider it)... and she wants to know that her efforts are valued and matter as he goes off into the world and makes his way. She wants to be included, but not necessarily lead. She wants her way at times (so she feels indulged), and she wants to know that when the chips are down, there are strong arms there to comfort her.
I can see that as mothering/fathering... but Cobra, I also see it as a purely m/f dynamic, that if taken too far, can cause all KINDS of problems within the M. That is why I think it is so important for both people within an R to have a very solid sense of self... or I will relie on you TOO much, take the daddy thing too far... set the R up as a parent/child relationship... and watch it all spiral out of control.
Im starting to get cranky about it, and ready to go gather my 'indian' bretheren and have a tea party. 
If he is going to keep it up, at least have the balls to wear a blue helmet while he is doing it. 