Adult Attachment Disorder

[blackfoot]

Cobra

I thought that last post to Cac was good.
I wanted to post to you about something I (still) notice.
Its about what I see as your struggle with 'equality'. You seem to be struggling with apparent discrepancies between Schnarch, and needing to be validated.

Im struggling with how to phrase this, but your terminology seems to be from a position of powerlessness, and negativity, using words like manipulation and forcing her, etc.

Let me see if I can get this across.

The ideas of Blackfoot come into play too since they are essentially cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) ideas.

first thanks but I wasnt that educated when I was younger. originally it was just a matter of seeing/doing what worked, regardless of the reason or my FOO and feelings. MWD says -paraphrase-do what works, does it matter why?

For example I know many good scuba instructors (behaviour modification). They dont have any awarness of the different types of intelligence or learning patterns, concepts of teaching styles they just copy what they were taught to do and works in most cases for most people. They may not be the phenomenal instructor I am and have success with some of the more extreme cases, but they are still effective. (obviously Im much better kinetically then literarily.... nah, it must be you, since we all keep saying the same thing to you. )

you said I cannot see the day that I will be comfortable feeling excluded from important decisions or having those I care about do their own thing without me. The “attack” is not the issue. So when I say my wife has the power to stop the cycle by providing me with validation, this is what I mean. Yes, it is manipulation of sort, but your fast approaching decision to leave the marriage is no less a form of manipulation.

the way you phrase this you are giving your wife all the power. Instead of having your boundaries, and giving her Choices
I.E.... Please do this, or This is what I want from you.... asserting your requirement and right, to have a say making decisions, you see it as manipulation. By thinking of it as manipulation, you are taking responsibility for her actions (I can make her do something she doesnt want to) and essentially not giving her a choice. Thats not your job.
Manipulation is possible. There are tactics that you can take, but if you see your desires and boundaries as tactics they WILL Fail long term scenario. There is no manipulation in a boundary. It shows who and what you are, it demonstrates personal strength and power, and lack of fear of the outcome, which a woman does want to see from a man so she can surrender to him.
That is different then what you want from her. That is essentially my disagreement with how I see you handle things. Your not trying to give her what she wants, your trying to force a situation of 'equality' where she soothes you and you soothe her. That forces her to be unfeminine. You can accomplish that, but you will kill her desire. Thats not going to help you accomplish your goal-- A mutually fulfilling sexual M.


Essay 20 by David Deida 'Dont Suggest that a Woman Fix Her Own Emotional Problem' ( I read his book 2 weeks ago --its most excellent dude ) tackles this subject. I really recommend you get it, Id love to find a forum or discuss it with you some other way.

When you soothe yourself via Schnarch, you are tackling you own insecurities and demonstrating to her, what she wants to receive. When you are able to soothe yourself, and as you put it and I agree with you, put your needs first- even be 'selfish' then she will want to support you. (oh yeah I read 'UltraMarathon Man' too, I thought it was a good demonstration of what David Deida speaks about.)
Whatever your insecurity is she knows and wants to eliminate. How she does it is not always.... comfortable for us. Using Radical Honesty and telling her how you will and wont be treated will be using boundaries to encourage her to do it in a more ...palatable for you -fashion.


Besides myself, who has the greatest influence on this? Yep, my wife. If she can hear me, validate me and compromise, then I will IMMEDIATELY feel better. I do not need to go cool off for a few hours. For me, cooling off does nothing. It just delays the issue. I stuff it into my resentment box until it comes up later. Validating me purges the issue entirely

Validating you does feel good. WOA. <insert warm fuzzy>
It is a healthy thing for her to learn and a respectful way for her to handle it. It does not 'purge the issue' IMO, becasue it still gives her the power over your emotional state. Witholding it changes your emotional state. They do not want that power. Thats why they 'test' and check to see if they have it.

I can have a sense of security in giving my wife comfort, knowing that she will give me comfort. I have a fear that she will withhold comfort if I withhold, and vice versa. I fear the fighting and anxiety which that could lead to, so I will continue to give comfort and support.

Why do you fear the fighting? Havent you noticed that after you fight there is a greater intimacy? That a compromise is the result? Can you learn to have arguments, without lossing control of your emotions, frustration anger? If you can see that it is a opportunity instead of a loss of control and power, it will change your whole perspective on fearing conflict.
That happens by having the courage to have conflict and express your self.( i.e. corris recent posts)

Personally I really enjoy conflict. I may even use it a little too much. That being said, I do understand getting worn out from the 'testing' and it growing wearisome. for example, I do not, will not 'compete' for a female.

I most certainly will not 'fight for' my wife, (should that happen) ever again. I dont regret having tried, I learned so much about myself and women thru the process. Maybe thats a flawed viewpoint, and maybe thats 'too differentiated'. Shrug. My only regret is losing control of my emotions outburst/ actions.

Youve made a lot a progress in the last year cobra and your not sacrificing your integrity. I think just a few subtle adjustments in your outlook on things such as not expecting her to act in a masculine manner, and not seeing healthy pysch (male or female) as some dark sinister sneaky force will pay some dividends.
I dont disagree that you should require validation. I do think you should stop trying to 'fix her' and expect her to see, act and respond to situations like you do. If she breaches a boundary of yours, it is going to cause a feeling. You should do something about it. If she leaves you, (or when she threatens) it will (can) cause an emotional loss. Thats not her problem to fix, anymore then your grief is the responsibility of a loved one who dies, nor necessarily a breach of your boundary. It just hurts, and means your human.

[blackfoot]

If she leaves you, (or when she threatens) it will (can) cause an emotional loss. Thats not her problem to fix, anymore then your grief is the responsibility of a loved one who dies, nor necessarily a breach of your boundary. It just hurts, and means your human.

I want to add ---
how you deal with that hurt, and demonstrate control over your emotional state, and specifically her control over it will either kill her attraction or allow it to resume.

[LostGal]

CAC4 is not alone in life! His long lost twin is MyH. Who, reluctantly took the attachment quiz at my prodding and scored--

According to attachment theory and research, there are two fundamental ways in which people differ from one another in the way they think about relationships. First, some people are more anxious than others. People who are high in attachment-related anxiety tend to worry about whether their partners really love them and often fear rejection. People low on this dimension are much less worried about such matters. Second, some people are more avoidant that others. People who are high in attachment-related avoidance are less comfortable depending on others and opening up to others.

According to your questionnaire responses, your attachment-related anxiety score is 3.50.... Your attachment-related avoidance score is 3.94....

As you can see in this graph, the two dimensions of anxiety and avoidance can be combined to create interesting combinations of attachment styles. For example people who are low in both attachment-related anxiety and avoidance are generally considered secure because they don't typically worry about whether their partner's are going to reject them and they are comfortable being emotionally close to others.
Combining your anxiety and avoidance scores, you fall into the secure quadrant . Previous research on attachment styles indicates that secure people tend to have relatively enduring and satisfying relationships. They are comfortable expressing their emotions, and tend not to suffer from depression and other psychological disorders.

I'm going to add a bit to this for "communication" style. I fail to recognise his openly emotional forthright attachment style. Gestures of love differ from gestures of kindness. Because the approx 3.5 and 4.0 are so very close to the Dismissive line on the graph I tend to think that CAC4 and MyH are extremely close. (Showing my bias here)

To get back to Cobra and CAC4, I'm very interested and applaud CAC4 for coming forth in an attempt to learn. I'm very interested and am learning a great deal from Cobra and others in their counsel.

Thanks

[cac4]

a few things I need to straighten out, here...but generally, yeay, I think you have me nailed.

• You say your attempts to communicate turn out badly – you just can’t help yourself and this is just guy stuff

not that "I can't help myself" so much; just that it seems a fairly typical "mars/venus" situation.

• You say you can’t afford D. You can’t divorce responsibility. This sounds like rationalization on why you cannot D. Could be an avoidance tactic?

maybe...or maybe its just a fact. I live in one of the most expensive real estate markets in the country. The only reason I have a house is because I bought it 12 years ago; I could not afford to buy that house today. Just this week, I heard a report on the news that since we've been married (1989), productivity and corporate profits are up 50%, but wages are down 3%...and real estate is up about 300%. My house is a low-priced one; if it were sold and the proceeds split in half, we'd each have...."nothing". Apartments cost far more than our monthly mortgage...I can not afford 2 dwellings, its that simple. W does not work outside the house; her earning potential is no more than the cost of daycare for jr...
divesting of the real estate would be an optimistic outcome around these parts, according to my friend, the lawyer, who says its more typical for judges to declare that the mom lives in the house w/ kids until they are grown, before any such transactions take place...yet daddy gets to keep paying the bill. I'm not saying that it would "sting" financially, and I'd have to give up my country club membership and my month in the Bahamas every winter; I'm saying I'd be freakin' homeless...no joke, no exaggeration whatsoever.

• You don’t like Dr. Laura or “holier-than-thou” women. This baffles me since Dr. Laura is firmly in the man’s camp, pushing for more consideration of the H by the W. Yet she bothers you…. odd.

no, I don't like "holier than thou" *people*. nothing to do w/ "women"...and yeah, from what I've been told, I might agree with her on THIS issue. I was just speaking in general terms.

Your wife
• Says your emotions are so buried you don’t know what you want
• Complains that you do not communicate
• Flies off the handle when you do communicate

As for that last point, well is her flying off the handle really that mysterious? In light of your issues that I list above, maybe she is just stuffing her anger until you do talk, then she blows up? Can you see how this might be?

honestly, no, I don't understand. If I did, I suppose I probably wouldn't be here.

Now this is strange and contrary to everything above:
• You say she walks on egg shells
• She is overly sensitive yet willing to read Dr. Laura

nope. backwards. *I* am the one that walks on eggshells, to avoid causing her to "fly off the handle".

Do you ever fly off the handle? Or do you just withdraw into your shell?

nope. no handle-flying for me. I'm the one in the shell.

If she is so sensitive, I would think she would resist reading Dr, Laura, like the women on that other board you mention. Dr. Laura is very confrontational with wives.

.
what can I tell ya? we're having a good week. (really!)

I see a lot of things you could do to improve CAC4. I see a lot of justification for your wife’s anger.

I don't, unless you mean that its ok to be angry at someone's "personality". without specific events and circumstances, which I have not given, there is nothing else by which to judge. yes, I am sarcastic to a fault, but I always have been. Sarcasm is a form of humor, but its also one of those things that people either love or hate; no "in between". For those who hate it, comments like I have made don't come across well.

I get the feeling that you do not want to be led or dominated.

yep. probably so. but I have been...and I resent the hell out of it. (so why ain't I the LD one? )

You said “you can't say the wrong thing if you don't say anything.” This is avoidance of blame and guilt.

Its avoidance of *conflict*

I am also not willing to accept your statement that you “can't seem to speak-a-de language. no comprendo. whatever attempts I make seem to turn out badly.” Think about this and ask yourself if it is really that difficult to understand your wife’s need for heart-to-heart communication and whether you are giving that. Then ask yourself what you have been doing to dodge that responsibility and why you do that. What does all of this have to do with your mother?

I dont' think it has anything to do with my mother.
I don't think you quite understand the history and the specifics behind my statements. There have been times in the past when I have "revealed" my feelings on some very difficult subjects, and she has taken those feelings and used them as a weapon against me. It would take a "book" to explain the whole thing in detail. But let me just say, this ain't just me makin' sh!t up, here. At the time of the worst occurance, she was seeing a C regularly. She told the C HER side of this story, and the C went ballistic over what an awful thing she had done to ME! (imagine if she had heard MY side of the story?!). C was able to get through to W what an awful thing this was, etc, etc, and when W got it, she was horrified, extremely appologetic and so forth...but you can't just put that genie back in the bottle.

[Cobra]

Blackfoot,

Good to hear from you again and that things are going well. I know it is tough getting over heartbreak. I hope you can find true happiness soon. I have every confidence that you will. I only wish I knew half of what you know when I was your age.

I had a good start on a reply, then the power crashed at work. I’ll try to reconstruct my thoughts.

[Cobra]

CAC4,

I understand the housing situation. But if it comes to D, it doesn’t matter, you’re screwed. It’s not fair, but that’s the way the law works. So if you don’t want to go there, do what you need to do.

As far as your relationship goes, I totally misunderstood. I thought she walked on eggshells. Wait, I take that back. I didn’t misunderstand, you said the walking on eggshells pertains to “the wife.” I hope that isn’t indicative of other communication problems, but I am guessing it is. Don’t assume. Make yourself clear, then have her repeat it back if you need to. You can repeat back her comments. This type of communication problem can be harmful, especially if you both tend to make assumptions, but there is no reason for it. It is too easy to solve. You just have to want to solve it.

Have you read the book “Stop Walking on Eggshells?” Maybe you should. You may be giving up too much power by letting her invade your boundaries. When one person walks on eggshells, there is a harmful imbalance in the relationship. You must stand up for yourself. Blackfoot just made the same comments to me.

You seem to understand that you have a passive aggressive tendency, and yes, sarcasm can be funny. Do you intend it in the way that guys poke fun at each other? That is a form of male bonding, but women just don’t get it. As soon as you make a sarcastic remark at your wife, her social conditioning makes her start to internalize the comment. She has been trained by other women to get in touch with her emotions, to become vulnerable in order to connect. Guys learn to brush off sarcastic comments and then try to one-up each other in a competitive sort of game. You should know all this. It is not new. She is not a guy.

Being funny and entertaining is the best way for guys to connect to a woman, thinking that if they can get her to laugh, they can break through the ice, right? Nothing wrong with that, except the reason for breaking the ice in the first place is to make the emotional connection, to allow HER to feel the familiar feminine bond she feels with her girl friends. But if you never allow this emotional openness to take place and instead just keep on being “funny,” then your sarcasm may become a source of frustration for her, sort of like a male tease.

I am assuming you are here because you want to reconnect with your wife. Then why are you using something that is becoming a wall between you? Maybe it feels comfortable to have that wall there? Could you be using sarcasm as a defensive tactic to keep her out of your inner secrets?

That puts a nice twist on, it doesn’t it? You do something you think is harmless, just a little sarcasm, trying to be funny and keep above the fighting. Heck, down inside you know you are a nice guy, a guy’s guy. But could that really be a blockage, a deflection that is meant to set HER off and make HER look like the angry, dysfunctional person? That makes a convenient excuse to keep your distance and maintain your walls. You become the hapless victim. Staying in your shell becomes almost a noble act, trying to keep the peace and not engage. Very intricate passive aggression. I couldn’t pull that one off. What are you hiding behind those walls?

The problem I see is that if you were truly the “victim” I do not think you would have the sarcasm you do. You would feel under siege and would not see anything funny about it. Furthermore, you KNOW that your sarcasm sets her off and you do it anyway. There is an element of manipulation here, can you see that?

Let’s see… step out of the shell for just a moment…. poke, poke, poke… is she getting mad yet?.... poke, poke, poke….. there she goes, I can see her getting ready to blow. Quick! Back into the shell and act like you did nothing wrong! Are you doing this?

I do think you are a victim, but I think the perpetrator is you, not your wife. Your intricate plan to protect yourself emotionally is also contrived to protect your self image. It is not a “guy” thing to admit to a fear of intimacy. That’s pretty touchy-feely stuff. Better to portray the wife as a demon whom you must tolerate for the sake of the kids. That way you can get praise from others for your tolerance. Heck, even the counselor will buy it.

Now, be REAL careful of what you ask for. If the wife were to get into more counseling to control her anger, a lot of other stuff will come out. She might also come to the same realization I am outlining here. You think she’s pissed now, just what until she figures this one out.

You might think long and hard about doing an about face while you still can. Get over your anger. Could this be not only anger at some past issue but maybe at yourself too? You are the “victim” aren’t you? Yet you walk on eggshells and keep taking her wrath. Now how is that a “guy” thing? Referring to being led or dominated, you said “yep. probably so. but I have been...and I resent the hell out of it.” Doesn’t this make my point? Aren’t you really frustrated with yourself for taking it? Find a way to stop walking on eggshells and stop the manipulation. To do that, stop the sarcasm and learn to open up honestly. If that is too scary, then do some soul searching first. Talk about your issues here.

There have been times in the past when I have "revealed" my feelings on some very difficult subjects, and she has taken those feelings and used them as a weapon against me.

Yeah, I know this one. But if what I speculate above has merit, can you understand why she might be upset? Remember, she is as damaged and dysfunctional as you are. She probably sees things only from her perspective, as you do. I wouldn’t be surprised if she has here own set of manipulative game plans. Try to understand her POV. Don’t ask me to explain, ask her.
C was able to get through to W what an awful thing this was, etc, etc, and when W got it, she was horrified, extremely appologetic and so forth...but you can't just put that genie back in the bottle.

What does this mean? She realized what she did, she apologized. I assume that for at least a while she stopped whatever awful thing she was doing. Yet are you saying that is not good enough, that once she dares to offend you there can be no forgiveness? Would you prefer she not come to this realization, not change and not apologize? What is your purpose in harboring this resentment?

I dont' think it has anything to do with my mother.

Ok, if not your mother, then who? You dad? Was he a macho, funny guy who avoided exposing his emotions? Who taught you to be “funny?” Who did the emotional damage to you?

[Lillieperl]

Brilliant post, cobra. Very thorough.

Will cac be able to let down his defenses enough to comprehend any of it?

Cac, LOSE the sarcasm when relating to your W. Immediately. Even if it's an entrenched part of your style. What cobra says about humor is absolutely true. Just try operating without it and see if it doesn't make a difference.

[cac4]

... Could you be using sarcasm as a defensive tactic to keep her out of your inner secrets?

possible...but not like you describe below

That puts a nice twist on, it doesn’t it? You do something you think is harmless, just a little sarcasm, trying to be funny and keep above the fighting. Heck, down inside you know you are a nice guy, a guy’s guy. But could that really be a blockage, a deflection that is meant to set HER off and make HER look like the angry, dysfunctional person? That makes a convenient excuse to keep your distance and maintain your walls. You become the hapless victim. Staying in your shell becomes almost a noble act, trying to keep the peace and not engage. Very intricate passive aggression. I couldn’t pull that one off. What are you hiding behind those walls?

The problem I see is that if you were truly the “victim” I do not think you would have the sarcasm you do. You would feel under siege and would not see anything funny about it. Furthermore, you KNOW that your sarcasm sets her off and you do it anyway. There is an element of manipulation here, can you see that?

Let’s see… step out of the shell for just a moment…. poke, poke, poke… is she getting mad yet?.... poke, poke, poke….. there she goes, I can see her getting ready to blow. Quick! Back into the shell and act like you did nothing wrong! Are you doing this?

nope. absolutely not. I'm not a manipulator. and the complaint isn't a "sarcastic response", but no response at all. I don't instigate these arguments...well, they're not really arguments, either, because I won't engage. so they're mostly what you'd call "gripe sessions". she attacks, and I withdraw.

You might think long and hard about doing an about face while you still can. Get over your anger. Could this be not only anger at some past issue but maybe at yourself too? You are the “victim” aren’t you? Yet you walk on eggshells and keep taking her wrath. Now how is that a “guy” thing? Referring to being led or dominated, you said “yep. probably so. but I have been...and I resent the hell out of it.” Doesn’t this make my point? Aren’t you really frustrated with yourself for taking it? Find a way to stop walking on eggshells and stop the manipulation. To do that, stop the sarcasm and learn to open up honestly. If that is too scary, then do some soul searching first. Talk about your issues here.

that seems to be a contradiction, to me. "walking on eggshells" is avoidance; manipulation requires some positive action to generate a response, which I am most certainly NOT doing.

C was able to get through to W what an awful thing this was, etc, etc, and when W got it, she was horrified, extremely appologetic and so forth...but you can't just put that genie back in the bottle.

What does this mean? She realized what she did, she apologized. I assume that for at least a while she stopped whatever awful thing she was doing. Yet are you saying that is not good enough, that once she dares to offend you there can be no forgiveness? Would you prefer she not come to this realization, not change and not apologize? What is your purpose in harboring this resentment?

there is no conscious "purpose"; it just "is". it is a learned response to negative consequenses. touch a hot stove: get burned. learn to avoid touching the hot stove. simple as that.
"forgiveness", "resentment", "anger"...I have to go look up those words. I'm too much of an engineer type. You people keep saying stuff like "the glass is half full/empty"...I say, "the 8oz vessel contains 4oz of fluid." its not negative, its not positive, it just IS. I keep seeing people say that we "choose" these feelings, and I think its hogwash. Those emotions are not something that you can simply turn on or off; they just "are". and they're the result of past experience. reminds me of courtroom dramas, where inadmisable statements are made, or evidence introduced...objections are raised, and the judge instruct the jury to "disregard that elephant that just walked through the jury box". well, they can't "disregard", because they're human. the cat is out of the bag; he ain't going back in.

I dont' think it has anything to do with my mother.

Ok, if not your mother, then who? You dad? Was he a macho, funny guy who avoided exposing his emotions? Who taught you to be “funny?” Who did the emotional damage to you?

ok, I get this now...didn't before. I thought you were implying some weird oedipal thing...yeah, sure, I learned to communicate (or "not communicate) from my parents. I am my mother; w is my father. my father rants and raves...mom ignores. sick, isn't it? Conversly, W's parents do nothing but yell and scream at each other. I can't stand it. makes me just want to curl up in a ball. thats totally defensive; not "manipulative". and its at least a little bit conscious, because I know that trying to confront someone that is "flying off the handle" by doing the same thing in response, is an exercise in futility. It only makes things worse.

-Chuck

[Cobra]

Chuck,

I’m going to reply on the other thread “Fatalist…”

[Cobra]

Haphazard,

On the “Fatalist…” thread you posted a link to an article on attachment theory by Susan Johnson. I am now beginning to read a book by her called “Emotionally Focused Couple Therapy with Trauma Survivors; Strengthening Attachment Bonds.” I will post comments here about the book once I get a little more into it. The first part so far has a lot of review of EFT theory and discussion of trauma and the approaches to treating it. She says that without a full appreciation of any past trauma, therapists can misdiagnose patients as have other problems, such as borderline personality disorder. I hope later in the book there will be more discussion on how to use some attachment therapy techniques.

I’d also like to hear more feedback from other long time posters on this board. It is very curious to me why there has been such a lack of comments on this thread. The attachment theory approach seems to turn a lot of what we have been preaching on its head. It certainly flies in the face of some of what Schnarch proposes. Is that such a bad thing?

We all saw the episode on Dateline in which two couples went to see Schnarch. One couple seemed to have resolved their fears and progress. But the interracial couple fell apart. It seemed to me that the H was needing a mother figure to give him the support he needed. His wife played into that role, but when she came to realize what was going on, she stopped, basically demanding he grow up and take on his adult leadership role. This was too much for him and he seemed overwhelmed. He could not ascend to that role on his own, especially with the growing resentment in his wife. It was just too scary. I believe that is why they eventually divorced.

Schnarch seemed to just accept this outcome as a consequence of the man’s failure to confront his issues, to step into the crucible, do the growing he needed, learn to hold onto himself and find the security he needed within himself and then be able to give that back to his wife. I recall his almost lack of concern about this idea bothered me quite a bit. The program did not pick up on this, but I am seeing this as a bigger and bigger flaw in the differentiation theory. Attachment theory is making this flaw seem ever more clear.

I wonder what would have happened if Schanrach used a different approach and helped the couple identify the attachment issues in the H. What if he were able to focus on the need to basically grow up, but with the support and comfort of his wife. The book I am reading puts forth a very strong case that trauma victims are MUCH more successful at recovery if they have a close partner bond with whom they can face the “dragon” (as Susan Johnson calls it).

I wonder if this approach would have saved the marriage of that couple, instead of throwing the H out on his own to come to terms with his weakness and grow on his own. The fighting and bickering that ensued must have only served to make him feel more isolated and more anxious. At some point he must have given up and she must have gotten fed up. That to me does NOT sound like the optimal recipe for success. Could it be that the uses of this approach is why there have been so few success stories on this board?

How about some thoughts and feedback?