Adult Attachment Disorder

[Cobra]

Hap,

OK, I can see your frustration. It does seem like you’ve done too much of the giving, the pursuing, so changing that is changing the dynamics. His hard, intimidating position is a form of control. He does not understand the power argument that I mentioned to Heather. But that is probably because he was so extremely damaged as a kid.

This is a tough situation. He is crying out in a passive aggressive way for validation but he is angry and refuses to accept the help when he gets it. You loose either way. He has you caught in a loop that keeps the focus on him. Maybe you should refresh yourself on that narcissist website (Sam Vaknin) some more. It is starting to sound more and more to me like this is may be what he is struggling with.

[LostGal]

Cobra, what is the chance that he expects to have the same gestures he wants thanks for recriprocated? I'm so amazed at the 5 Love Languages. Is he asking for validation/praise or recriprocating kindnesses to "show she cares"? Could his desiring sincere thanks be this kind of plea? More, "I LOVE YOU and show it by doing xyz. Don't you love me? You never DO XYZ for me!"

Just a novices guess.

[Cobra]

Lostgal,

Cobra, what is the chance that he expects to have the same gestures he wants thanks for recriprocated?

It might be pretty good. He is obviously angry and resentful, which means in part that he feels short changed, for whatever reason. Whether that is true or not is another matter, but he feels it. What Haphazard is angry about is that she feels she is the one who is short changed, that she does more than her share but he is still upset. They are getting locked into an entitlement cycle.

His problem seems to be that even when he gets what he wants, he is so trained in “not wanting to want” and low self esteem that he has a hard time accepting her help and then getting past his resentment. I see this same dynamic in my wife. For her to accept what she really wants means to let go of her anger and drop her defenses. If she does that, then she loses the only means she has ever known to maintain control – imposing intimidation and fear over others helps to maintain control. Losing this control means life becomes uncertain and dangerous – who knows what could happen? It is a very hard thing to do.

This is where Blackfoot’s advice can come into play – about being the strong, calm leader. But it is difficult for me to model this when I am not getting my needs met. I get angry too. If my wife and I can hold to this idea of mutually serving each other to get back what we each want, I think some of the resentment can diminish, we can hold onto ourselves better, and put forth that calm, strong role model, at least that is my plan for now.

[Corri]

Cobra:

If my wife and I can hold to this idea of mutually serving each other to get back what we each want, I think some of the resentment can diminish, we can hold onto ourselves better, and put forth that calm, strong role model, at least that is my plan for now.

I see what you are saying, and I don't think it a particulary 'bad' idea... just been reading wrong a lot of what you have saying... what with all the 'justifications' you attach to it. Since I don't always agree with your 'justifications,' (not that I have to) it is sometimes hard for me to hear your more important, simpilier message.

I guess I don't see this approach, on an emotional level, any different than a 'scheduled' sex approach on a physical level... just to get the ball rolling. Obviously, that is not where people want to stay... but you have to start somewhere.

I'm wondering if there are times when you take someone not agreeing with your opinion as a deeper indication of being ignored or invalidated. If so, you may want to try (with your wife), that whole exercise that NotAtlDave is so high on... repeating back to your spouse what you think you just heard. Might help you both begin to see where you are misunderstanding one another.

Also... and this is a rhetorical question... in addition to trying the mutual 'emotional support' approach... building trust is also important... I wonder if there are any good 'trust' building exercises out there... you have a lot on your plate already... don't want to overload you... but looking at your sitch., and how you are trying to approach it, I can't help but think that somewhere down the line, this will enter the mix...

Corri

[LostGal]

Cobra, you seem very interested in this exercise, as am I, for I always thought the simplistic, you are too sensitive, you are too cold, you are too stoic...sayings were too general.

Here is further information on Fraley's efforts and graphs, try refresh if the macromedia grafts dont run.

OH and THANK YOU FOR LOCATING THESE LINKS TO BEGIN WITH! I got to these by backing up on your link to the "test" trying to learn more and taking related links from there.

The graph on the left illustrates Person A's attachment-related anxiety and avoidance with respect to four relationship domains: mom, dad, partner, and best friend. Because the ratings are made once a day over a 30-day period, the graph portrays the trajectory of a person's attachment style in that two-dimensional space over the 30-day period. For this particular individual, there is a bit of change over time. Most notably, however, the person has very different ways of relating to his best friend (with whom he is relatively secure--low in anxiety and avoidance) than he does with his parents. For example, the blue points, which represent his attachment to his mother, tend toward the extreme opposite end of the two-dimensional space. His attachment to his father is similar, but more extremely insecure and more stable

Which suggests you can attach differently to different people/people types in your life.

http://www.psych.uiuc.edu/~rcfraley/research.htm

[cinemanymph]

LostGal,

Glad to see you on the boards again. Haven't seen you around lately. Hows things?

[Cobra]

Corri,

Good to hear from you on this. I figured you and others were avoiding this thread since it sounded like a manipulation scheme. I do not concern myself with that because in my mind anything and everything we do can be construed to be some level of manipulation. It is rare that we ever do anything without truly expecting anything in return. The justifications you mention are really my attempt to kick this whole problem of being stuck in a relationship out of the theoretical and into reality. There are plenty of methods, but I have seen few success stories. That tells me something is not working…..

The NotAtlDave exercise sounds like mirroring to me. It is what you learn in IMAGO, and W and I have tried it before. The problem then was that it did not require any sincerity. W said lots of things, but meant few of them. Her actions spoke louder than words and I began to realize she was just placating me. For mirroring to work, there needs to be a certain level of commitment to your words.

The issue I have is not the disagreement with my ideas, but the lack of willingness to compromise. If W compromises, then I can accept the fact that she does not totally agree with me, as I don’t totally agree with her. But compromising means we are acknowledging one another and working together as a team. Not compromising means (to me) that the team concept is not even recognized.

My whole idea of forced compromise came about with Lil’s question to me about shame. I knew shame was not a major core issue with me (it was a one time in my past), but I did not know what was holding me back. The adult attachment site made me realize that what I want is to be loved, just as everyone else. Furthermore, having that love makes me feel whole, not having it makes me feel hollow and longing for someone. It is just another way of looking at codependency. But I have always felt that a true sole-mate type of relationship involves a certain amount of codependency. I think Willard Harley has it right in his criticism of the codependency movement.

In fact, codependency does not ever need to be a problem. Imagine two people who are very codependent. If they support and stand by each other, are always loyal to each other, always affirm this to each other, and are always considerate of the other’s need, is there a problem? Why are we so intent to become independent and non-reliant on someone else? Schnarch says differentiation is necessary to weather those times when stress is too great and we cannot sooth our partner. Those are the times when couples are most vulnerable. But is the key to be always independent or to learn to always be supportive and thinking of the other? If we put our partner first, why should a marriage ever suffer, especially if we get back the same satisfying level of support that we give?

[Maybe there is something to what Lil and others have discussed regarding the feminist movement having pushed too far. Certainly women had a complaint years ago in being over worked, under paid and under appreciated. But have things may have gone too far and caused some women (like my wife) to fear any dependence on a man as something bad?]

If these assumptions have any merit, then maybe part of the problem we are seeing (in the lack of success stories) is that the emphasis is on TOO MUCH independence and differentiation. In fact, isn’t differentiation just a form of self-protection against the vulnerability that comes from our natural longings to be codependent? Isn’t codependence just a longing to be loved? And if that is true, why not give your partner the love s/he wants and have them give back that love to you? Isn’t that the bottom line of what all of us are chasing? Isn’t that where trust begins?

If we can cut out all the facades and defenses and be TRULY honest with our spouse, then I think it all boils down to this. No more need for rituals, scheduling, routines, just an honest deep down admission of what we truly want. Now, the problem is recognizing that this is what we want, admitting it to our partner, and dropping the defenses. Easier said than done.

[cac4]

CAC4,

I meant to respond to your post but got caught up in the other questions.

"Walking on eggshells"...rings a bell.
"super-sensitive", too.

Are you referring to yourself or your wife?

the wife

She complains that I don't communicate, don't let her in, etc, etc. typical guy, right? well, when I have "communicated", the result is her flying off the handle in response. and they wonder why we don't "communicate".

To me, I sense a dismissive theme in these comments. My guess is that if she says you don’t communicate, then you don’t, at least not in a language she can hear. That may be because she needs to be validated to support some false image she has of herself and she doesn’t want to hear anything less. As wrong as that may be, if you stop any communication, how will you ever help her to see her issues that are then impacting you? The communication needs to flow first, then it can tweaked into more appropriate language.

therein lies my problem. I can't seem to speak-a-de language. no comprendo. whatever attempts I make seem to turn out badly. you can't say the wrong thing if you don't say anything.

It said I was "dismissive". whatever that means...

Dismissive seems pretty appropriate to me.

can you explain to me how that is either good, bad, or indiferent?

Dr. Laura...hard to take seriously by anyone born after 1960; particularly, anyone female. There may be bits of truth to gleen from it, but the messenger makes it awfully hard to swallow.

I don’t understand this comment. What is special about 1960 as a cut-off point for accept Dr. Laura or not. Are you referring to your wife or you too? I can understand that Dr. Laura sounds threatening to women, but I don’t know why men would find her distasteful.

she comes off as quite sexist, and "judgy-wudgy". "holier-than-thou", judgemental, etc.
I haven't read this book, but other stuff I've heard her say just makes me kind of shake my head in disgust. And I have to say, I'm not really sure I like the sound of that title, either. Its kind of funny, yeah...but kind of insulting, too.
anyway, on another web board I used to frequent, that was almost entirely women of child-bearing age, she was bashed regularly for her apparently "sexist" attitudes, and this book, particularly. seems to me like its a "you'll catch more files with honey.." message. but why isnt' there also a "care and feeding of wives?" or is that covered in the book? does her message imply that the path to marital bliss is a one-way street? thats the kind of thing that turns people off in general...
anyway, its kind of a moot point. W and I were talking about this yesterday, and she said she'd like to read it anyway. and maybe I should too, just to see if any of it rings true with me. according to W, my emotions are so burried, I don't even know what it is that I want.

[cac4]

CAC4,

I had some other thoughts I wanted to mention, but this dang job just gets in the way… If the test is anywhere correct in identifying your attachment style as dismissive, then you should be an emotional avoider.

oh, yeah. I think so. I'm like a freakin' matador. "OLE!!"

The way I see it, this means your wife MUST be the pursuer. I may be wrong, but I don’t see how two avoiders could ever get together. As soon as a major intimacy issue arises, I would think two avoiders would rather walk away than face the issues. So they would never get past the dating phase. That’s why I think your wife may be the pursuer.

maybe. I dont' know what any of that means.

You say she has outbursts when you try to communicate. Maybe she is wanting to hear something from you in her language, but doesn’t hear it, so she gets angry. The question is what does she want/need to hear from you and is this why she gets mad? I get the impression you do not really know the answer either. Have you talked to her about this?

no, I don't know the answer. and yes, we have discussed it.

Also, since I assume she is the one pursuing you, Dr. Laura would not work for you. I suspect your wife already feels like she tries too hard and asking her to accommodate you even more will not go over well. Does she comment about this?

well...like I said in my other post, she said she'd read it. I'm not really asking to be "accommodated", I don't think. she wants me to talk...she needs to find a way to let me.

[Cobra]

CAC4,

I’m going to entertain your questions here and try to make sense of this. From just your comments on this thread I see a lot of stuff:

• You say your attempts to communicate turn out badly – you just can’t help yourself and this is just guy stuff
• To my comment “You are stuck and she controls the cards” you say “um...yeah. isn't that what marriage is all about?” This sounds sarcastic, passive aggressive and victim-like to me.
• You say “Suck it up and deal with it. Others have gone far longer in far worse situations.” More victim or martyr thinking.
• You do not want to leave the marriage and do not know why you must reach critical mass before the relationship can improve. And more here…
• You say you can’t afford D. You can’t divorce responsibility. This sounds like rationalization on why you cannot D. Could be an avoidance tactic?
• You don’t like Dr. Laura or “holier-than-thou” women. This baffles me since Dr. Laura is firmly in the man’s camp, pushing for more consideration of the H by the W. Yet she bothers you…. odd.

All of the above have an element of low self esteem, victim mentality or fatalism to it. They all seem to sound like you are trying to avoid responsibility in a passive aggressive and very sarcastic way.

Your wife
• Says your emotions are so buried you don’t know what you want
• Complains that you do not communicate
• Flies off the handle when you do communicate

As for that last point, well is her flying off the handle really that mysterious? In light of your issues that I list above, maybe she is just stuffing her anger until you do talk, then she blows up? Can you see how this might be?

Now this is strange and contrary to everything above:
• You say she walks on egg shells
• She is overly sensitive yet willing to read Dr. Laura

If she is the one who flies off the handle, why is she the one walking on eggshells? I would think you would be walking on eggshells. Care to elaborate? Do you ever fly off the handle? Or do you just withdraw into your shell?

If she is so sensitive, I would think she would resist reading Dr, Laura, like the women on that other board you mention. Dr. Laura is very confrontational with wives.

I see a lot of things you could do to improve CAC4. I see a lot of justification for your wife’s anger. I do not fault you for this though, because there is a reason why you are this way. But it is still your problem to resolve.

I get the feeling that you do not want to be led or dominated. I say this because of your passive aggression and irritation with a personality like Dr. Laura’s. But I also think you do not want to lead. You said “you can't say the wrong thing if you don't say anything.” This is avoidance of blame and guilt. Where did this come from? You put your wife in a tough spot if you will not follow but are also not willing to lead. That would drive anyone crazy.

Yet when she blows up, you seem to deny any responsibility for her state of frustration and paint her as talking out of both sides of her mouth. I think it is you who is avoiding your own issues, stonewalling your wife, then blaming her for shutting down. Her reactions seem understandable to me.

I am also not willing to accept your statement that you “can't seem to speak-a-de language. no comprendo. whatever attempts I make seem to turn out badly.” Think about this and ask yourself if it is really that difficult to understand your wife’s need for heart-to-heart communication and whether you are giving that. Then ask yourself what you have been doing to dodge that responsibility and why you do that. What does all of this have to do with your mother?

As for the idea of love avoider/pursuer, pick up a copy of “Facing Love Addiction: Giving Yourself the Power to Change the Way You Love” by Pia Mellody.