Adult Attachment Disorder I was pondering Lil’s question to me on my old thread about anger and shame…. Her questions did not strike a chord with me, but I came to realize I did not know the answer either. So I began to dig around, remembering a comment from a counselor long ago that my wife could have “anxious-ambivalent attachment disorder.” Both W and I had looked into this at the time, but found mostly stuff concerning radical attachment disorder in children.
In searching the web again, I found the following web sites:
The first site offered a very interesting summary of adult attachment disorder, especially the diagram of the feedback loop which creates the anxiety and fear. Things started to click in my mind and pieces fell into place as another part of the puzzle. I realized at the same time that I had come full circle back to where W and I had started when we first went to see an IMAGO therapist.
Contradictions of Experience from this Board What has been bothering me for some time is that I have only seen progress on this board for any a certain type of person. In spite of the tolerance, understanding, and personal growth we preach here, the only ones I have seen progress are those who have reached the end of their rope (for one reason or another) and taken a hard stand, to the point of walking out of the relationship if necessary. I experienced this myself earlier this year. Then we slid back into old routines. Why was this so?
Since my time on this board, I have seen the following posters move forward because they have “pushed” the relationship and their partner realized they either had to grow or accept D:
GEL – Blew up at H, and he sensed that she was on verge of D Lil – Drew the line on more intimacy or she would leave the R Nops – Nopkins drew line on intimacy and already laid plans for D Mojo – Let her H know that she is willing to D if he does not turn around HoneyPot – Pushed into the comfort levels of her H, but not to the extent of threatening D. (H does not seem to require as strong motivation as other spouses.)
On the other hand there are those relationships that seem to be stuck and have been for a long time. What I see lacking is the buildup to “critical mass,” as Schnarch calls it. These couples do not seem (at least to me) to have come to accept D as a reality, and so have not fully confronted their spouse with the conviction necessary to let that spouse know there is no more room left for negotiation. I see the following in this category:
CeMar Hairdog Lou Chrome Heather
So in light of this, I wonder if the current model for relationship recovery that we are all using is really a good one. An effective model should not need to push right up to the boundary of divorce before results are seen. Our assumptions are that we should work on ourselves and show our partner a new person, then hope and wait for them to come around. This means we grow the relationship from one side and teach by example. I think this may work with an assertive, pursuing partner since healthier boundaries and control of emotions will defused an aggressive pursuer. But I have not seen it work with avoiders.
Most of the men here seem to have wives who are avoiders (myself included). A friend of mine mentioned that while you can bring a horse to water but could not make it drink, you can take away the water until the horse gets thirsty. My reply was what if that horse is really a camel and can go without water for longer than I? In that case the spouse can actually become more comfortable by not having that water (sex and intimacy). They just hunker down deeper into their comfort zone.
Reality Check of Current Situations It occurred to me that I am not capable of achieving the “ideal” state of “holding onto myself,” purging my resentment and setting forth the ideal role model of a husband from what I have learned so far. I was trying to become something that was not within me (at least not at this time), and it was doomed to continual backsliding. I have now come to accept that this “ideal” is unrealistic and only a fantasy. The reality is that both my wife and I are dysfunctional and products of narcissistic childhood environments.
Reading in “The Narcissistic Family: Diagnosis and Treatment” by Stephanie Donaldson-Pressman & Robert M. Pressman, I see that it is this environment that set the way I respond emotionally to times when I feel invalidated, denied, or rejected. This coincides nicely with the theory of adult attachment. The reactions I see in myself and my children are not along the lines of personality disorders or deep buried resentment toward my family of origin, but rather conditioned responses from a fearful environment. That environment continues to this day, and I am sure many of us here still feel the same anxiety and fears we felt as children or adolescents. The triggering events may be different, but how we feel about those triggers is the same.
We all know our developed style of emotional response was necessary for survival in that past chaos. It is a set part of our being and very difficult to change. Acting “as if” felt false to me and I could not do it for long. This was one of the major hurdles in IMAGO that W and I could not get past. Our mutual dysfunction precluded each of us from giving the compassion to each other since we were each focusing on our own needs. At the same time we improperly took ownership of the other’s issues instead of just our own. It was and is a misalignment of responsibility and one which leads only to more frustration.
I have come to believe that achieving TRUE differentiation is an illusion. We can move toward the ideal, but only to some degree and mostly in action, less so in emotion. We see our spouse backslide so we hold on to and build up our resentment. This makes cooperation difficult. It is a natural consequence of the adult attachment condition. We are not getting our needs met, and because of the “blinding” created by our past and its continuation through our dysfunctional attachment style, we cast blame on the other, continuing the cycle of anger.
Notice in the article on attachment that there are three feedback loops. This was very interesting to me because it explained a lot of my anger and resentment. My wife seem to want to find an explanation rooted in some type of personality disorder. This accusation only mad me angrier.
The first feedback loop is that of a healthy attachment style. The other two are dysfunctional. Continuation of the dysfunctional loops depend on one thing – lack of validation from your spouse. This in turn is due to two factors: 1) the need for validation within us, and 2) the lack of compassion in our partner to provide the soothing we need.
Most of what we preach here is directed at trying to control our own need for validation. We try to understand it and overcome our need to depend on our partner for soothing. But without it, at some point ALL of us reach a limit and blow up. This is ok and we come to accept it as part of the process, convincing ourselves that we are only human and therefore allowed to backslide. I agree with this, but why set ourselves up to this in the first place?
I have always taken issue with factor number 2 above. In a committed relationship, I believe our partner has a certain RESPONSIBILITY to provide the soothing we need. But we should also give that same soothing back, not just from compassion, but also from common courtesy and consideration. Because we expect something back in return, it is nothing more than enmeshment. But is that so bad? The attachment article mentions that those with healthy attachment give and take more soothing and comfort from their partners than those in the dysfunctional styles. In short, they engage in increased enmeshment. Or is this only interdependence? As long as couples are secure with each other, I believe the communication is on an interdependent level. But introduce insecurity and I believe those same people can quickly become enmeshed and dysfunctional. So how can a couple that is deemed healthy in one situation become so dysfunctional in another? Aren’t we led to believe that we need to find comfort within ourselves, so that we can appreciate but not depend on comfort from our spouse?
It is hard for me to envision the ideal healthy person who can confront the abandonment of a spouse, and then react in a healthy way, holding onto him/herself and not fall into negative emotions and behavior. At least not on this planet. We are not ideal. We are dysfunctional, so I do not think reaching for an idealistic approach will work. Under stress, our dysfunctional feelings will always come back to haunt us. So how do we get out of this hole?
I believe the answer is to break the feedback cycle shown in the article, in any way that will work. Allowing the cycle to continue is the path to destruction. I believe the key to the short to medium-term breaking of this cycle is not more differentiation but attaining soothing from the partner. That is why the advice of Dr. Laura sounds so powerful to me. And the same goes for women and is just what the ladies on this board advise – to build the level of trust and emotional content to then build intimacy.
For a man, this can cause an immediate break in the cycle and improvement in moods and outlook. I can attest to this myself. The danger I think most therapists see is that this enmeshment can easily lead to other problems, since it is granting too much “power” to a dysfunctional person. There seems to be a tradeoff between two competing feedback cycles. The first comes about from non-validation and the creation of anger, obviously something to avoid. The other comes about from too much enmeshment and the resulting imbalance of power, creating its own set of anger and resentment. It can be a fine line, but when your relationship is stuck and D seems the only alternative, what other choice do you have?
My New Relationship Model for Dysfunctional Couples (or at least for my marriage) In my sitch, there has been little trust and therefore no desire to cooperate. We each waited for one to improve first, then other would respond by acting nicely, or being more supportive. This did not work and I really don’t see how it ever could. Instead, I say proceed from the position of self interest – cooperate with your spouse only if it serves to achieve your own selfish satisfaction. Agree to rub partner’s back only if they agree to rub yours. Coincidentally Mrs Nop just referenced an old post by Nopkins that says the same thing:
So far, the most interesting thing about the nature of desire is that it becomes a "you feed me/I feed you loop" when properly functioning.
The irony is that this way of thinking requires exactly same action as if made from an empathic, compassionate position. I can personally say that gaining this validation from my wife, getting my needs met, has allowed my anger to diminish and has made me more willing to be empathic and caring toward her, for then I will get more of my needs met. It is a purely selfish act on my part. And it works.
Because these are the same actions that W and I should use in a caring, compassionate setting relationship, there is no need to make any sort of transition from a selfish pursuit to an empathic one. There is no need to save face, or confront egos. The only thing required is the recognition and understanding of setting limits to prevent over-enmeshment and a wariness of any imbalance of power which could cause a reversion to the previous dysfunctional state. Both partners need to agree to meet the other’s needs in order to have their needs met. That is all. I think this can help to get a couple out of the hole. Then more permanent and healthy growth can later be made.
To test what attachment style you have, take this online quiz:
Requirements As I stated earlier, I feel that W and I have come full circle to where we started. At first, the other-validation that IMAGO preached was not satisfactory to either W or myself. There was too much resentment that blocked our ability to cooperate at even a minimal level to pursue our own selfish needs. Ego and revenge were at the top of the list. Also unknown was a true understanding of the cost of not cooperating. The idea of divorce can be a strong fantasy. We both thought D would make our lives better, if we could just get rid of the other person, but keep everything else, such as the house and kids. That illusion is hard to see until you are signing divorce papers. I think understanding and accepting this worst case scenario is required because it might be the only way out. And if it is, not accepting this fact means you are stuck. Forever.
Another point that I believe is required is a good understanding of your own behavior, your FOO issues (and those of your spouse), the concept of differentiation and holding onto oneself. It is important that you can identify what is out of balance in your relationship and why, in both partners. This takes a lot of homework.
With this much behind you, you can still hold on to anger and resentment. But as long as you are willing to support your spouse, if only for the purpose of EXPECTING returned support from him/her, then I think there is a chance to move forward.
But there is one other component. What if your spouse is the avoider and does not want to cooperate? What if s/he has a true fear of intimacy such that s/he will never have the willingness to step into the crucible and grow? What if you have done as much as you growth as you think you can? What next? Assuming we are dysfunctional, the compassion to give your spouse the room to work through his/her issues may not be there. To me, this felt like I would be waiting forever for my wife to come around. So severe cage rattling seemed like the only thing I could do. I was at critical mass.
I had to accept the fact that either my wife or I would have to “force” the other into the crucible, one or both of us would have to confront our choice to either move forward or end the relationship, in other words, “rattling the cage” and doing so in a loud and forceful manner if necessary. This is where most of us fail. It is a scary proposition. The only way out that we have been taught is to be compassionate and supportive, and put our own needs aside in the hope that our partner will find the compassion to support us. It just doesn’t happen, does it? It seems to me that it is the rare exception when this occurs. I say agree to serve your own selfish needs and break the log jam.
Incorporation of Teachings from this Board The way I see this self serving approach work is that it actually incorporates many of the lessons we have discussed on this board. It requires the FOO analysis and an understanding of narcissism and narcissistic families. It incorporates an understanding of our partner’s issues regarding attachment styles. The pursuer/avoider phenomenon actually makes more sense to me with an understanding of adult attachment disorder. Differentiation as proposed by Schnarch is necessary to prevent going over board in serving your spouse. The idea of coming to your senses by Block fits in nicely too. For women, the ideas of Dr. Laura are valuable even if they are repulsive from a feminist standpoint. In fact, it does not matter since the woman can justify her actions as merely a means to get what she wants (isn’t this what Dr. Laura says anyway?) The ideas of Blackfoot come into play too since they are essentially cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) ideas. It is much easier for a dysfunctional person to get used to giving compassion through self serving rote-like action than by confronting all the emotional roadblocks from your FOO.
So in the end, I have decided to see the problems in my marriage not as a consequence of some sort of personality flaw, or problem with my ability to empathize, but as a set of reactions to conditioned responses to abandonment fears that creates a self feeding cycle. I can have a sense of security in giving my wife comfort, knowing that she will give me comfort. I have a fear that she will withhold comfort if I withhold, and vice versa. I fear the fighting and anxiety which that could lead to, so I will continue to give comfort and support. I may never become a truly healthy adult and give comfort our of pure compassion only. But as long we can stick to this plan I will eventually feel closer to her and I think she will feel closer to me. That is the best we can do for now.
Approval seeking, fear, and lack of personal integrity will always equal piss-poor boundaries... the degree to which we all personally practice the above will directly correllate to the degree to which we contribute to the problems in the R.
I still see that as... 'change yourself and the R will change.'
The adult attachment stuff is interesting. Your research is commendable. Have you mentioned your findings to your W?
If you could have the ideal R with your W, what would it look like? Do you want to do what it would take to have that R?
Schnarch wrote a 400+ page book. Some of it had to do with forcing a crucible. The bulk of the book had to do with a high level of self improvement/management of emotions as well as the capability to allow others do what they will in response to those changes. Schnarch recommends that readers follow the book as written, starting with inner work and ending up with dealing with mortality, with crucibles falling somewhere in the middle.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
I agree that inner work is foremost. However, that inner work takes time, and as you say, you cannot see what you cannot see until you see it. Who knows how long it will take before you finally see it (what ever “it” is). In the mean time the relationship, the kids, and you, suffer. For those relationships like mine, a lot of time can be spent in a “stuck” condition. My intention is to find a way to break this cycle and give some soothing and peace while progressing on the longer growth path.
What I see is that being “stuck” is nothing more than holding out in a form of power struggle to get your needs met first. It is the build up leading to the crucible as Schnarch describes, but is it always necessary to make such wrenching changes? Long term, I think the answer is yes. But shorter term, maybe it is not necessary. Maybe getting some comfort and support will help both couples deal better with the crucible.
So many on this board give the advice that if something isn’t working, then why keep pursuing it? Try something else. I say step back and take a look at the big picture we all see painted on this board week after week. How many success stories do we see? Not many. Yet the techniques used are no different than what has been discussed here for years. It seems we are not following our own advice.
Cine,
Yes, my W has read over the attachment article, and has even taken the attachment style test. We both tested out as we had suspected. She seems to be understanding this need in me for validation and support. I have asked her to read Dr. Laura again, but this time from a more empathic male POV. She has agreed to do so (though not done so yet). For the past few weeks, things have gone much better.
She seems to have gotten the message that contentment for both of us comes from giving the other what they need. I am trying to help her more with her school stuff, hold up my end of the daily routines, etc. She is trying to come home earlier from work and spend more time with the kids. She also seems to be trying a new approach in giving me sex whenever I ask for it (as long as the timing is reasonable). She is not using one excuse after the other to avoid sex. So I feel the tension has noticeably lessened. I am less frustrated and I think she feels more supported.
We still disagree on several major issues, but we can set them aside a little easier. I think this way of thinking makes a difference. I also think it shatters the fantasy that a spouse should do things just because they love you so much. I do not believe in that. Over time, the most devoted, loving spouse will get fed up if his/her needs are neglected. Love is maintained by the serving of your spouse’s needs.
Quote: It seems we are not following our own advice.
Yep. Following your own advice is a real b!tch... and the hardest and most uncomfortable thing you can do. Watch yourself next time you and your W go off on a spree. It'll be the instant before you feel anger... you will feel discomfort.... about something.... most likely having to do with yourself. This goes along with what Schnarch calls "self-soothing." Your anger rescues you from the discomfort (not in all instances, don't want to downplay anger, for it does have it purposes)... but anger in the face of discomfort is avoidance... not self-soothing.
Anywho. Yes... respecting each other's anxiety and discomfort can help a TON in both partners willingness to continue to confront themselves.
This is really the crux of what I am saying. Overcoming the anger is a major goal, but it is a long term project. I still do not think my W is ready to address hers. Just keeps stuffing it under the rug.
I have tried to address my anger and resentment, go through my FOO stuff, etc., but in the end, I still feel the same emotions when the same situation arises. Knowing myself means accepting this reality and not trying to act like I am healthy. It is only self deception.
So while I cannot control my emotional reaction (or at least only part of it), my wife can help to control the situations that create that reaction. If she is willing to do this in return for me helping her, then it is a major advance, even if it is less than truly healthy.
Quote: I have tried to address my anger and resentment, go through my FOO stuff, etc., but in the end, I still feel the same emotions when the same situation arises. Knowing myself means accepting this reality and not trying to act like I am healthy. It is only self deception.
Do you have a separation between your feelings and your actions? Feelings just are, but actions and behaviors are a choice. And actions and behaviors can eventually result in a change to the feelings. The feelings have to be examined with the goal of healthy or unhealthy, and a conscious choice can be made on how to express those feelings.
Are you saying that making a conscious choice to behave a certain way even though your emotions are screaming otherwise is a form of self-deception, or am I misreading you?
Quote: I have tried to address my anger and resentment, go through my FOO stuff, etc., but in the end, I still feel the same emotions when the same situation arises. Knowing myself means accepting this reality and not trying to act like I am healthy. It is only self deception.
Uhm. I disagree with you here. You may always feel the same emotions to the same triggers, and you may never be able to help that. But you DO have a choice on how you decide to act and respond when those emotions arise. And yes, it is hard and often takes quite some time to change.
Quote: So while I cannot control my emotional reaction (or at least only part of it), my wife can help to control the situations that create that reaction.
I don't think so. She can, sure... but if she has to radically change herself because you can't handle/control your emotions... you are manipulating the situation. I don't think she should do LESS of what she does that triggers you... but I think she can certainly be way more empathetic to the fact that you are having to confront yourself and your emotional behaviors.
Quote: If she is willing to do this in return for me helping her, then it is a major advance, even if it is less than truly healthy.
I see what you are saying. I really do. But if you rely on your partner to get you through it, it is doomed to fail. One would certainly hope for empathy and support, and it DOES make all the difference in the world. But this is your path... your journey. If you want something, you want to BE a certain way... it is your journey, and your prize to attain, with or without the support of others.
However. On the flip side... perhaps if you two came up with a signal, a phrase... to indicate to the other that a situation/emotions have escalated beyond the point you can rationally handle, and you allow yourselves to bow out of the room/exchange until you can get a grip (with the explicit agreement that you will come back to continue the convo/exchange as soon as possible)... and then GIVE that to one another... it can help maintain a certain level of peace and security, yes.
Yo. 'Sup?