Well... thank you for not putting me into that category, but... I wasn't looking for the out. I accept full responsibility for me being the one to get out of my M.
I do think it was important, and thank you for doing so, to elaborate on your thought of self-centeredness.
You are probably right. On smaller issues, I've noticed that when I set a boundary, or just generally just stick up for myself forcefully on something, that my wife tends to respond. Not usually with an actual "I'm sorry", mind you, but by being really nice to me and softening her stance and attitude.
The crying thing was a one-time event, unplanned, at a moment 5 years ago when I had just reached this unbelievable place of sadness about what had become of a once-great and very affectionate relationship. We were laying in bed together, it was probably 2 a.m., and I just lost it. Not something I do all the time, but it prompted some soul-searching and long-overdue frank discussion that led to some dramatic -- albeit TEMPORARY -- changes within my wife.
Quote: I see men and women who are crushed after 15 - 20 years of marriage when their spouse (who hasn't fully participated in the marriage) decide that they are going to move on to greener pastures. I think we tend to think that the spouse who has been the most neglected is the one who will leave - I don't think that's true. It is very often the spouse who has already lived a life of relational self-centeredness who finds it easier to cut the marital ties.
I can see where this would be true.
Quote: Secondly, after a time of doing the right things (you know the drill - patience, kindness, involvement in family/home, being the best husband/wife that you can be on a regular basis - that it's time to let life & routine as our spouse has known it to come to an end. At some point, what you are contributing to the relationship may need to be withheld in the hopes of getting your spouse to notice that things are not going to continue under the status quo any longer.
I tried this, but it didn't work, and after a couple of years just left me feeling sexless AND schmucky, as I withheld love deposits that I knew were important to her. (She is very much a "quality time" and a "words of affirmation" person; I had begun to withhold both, but it brought about no change or even noticeable concern by her).
I think the next few months are going to be interesting. Mrs. Choc. just got a "full tummy tuck", after years of faithful dieting and rigorous exercise (she's a bit of a gym rat) left every part of her looking great except for that last bit of loose skin from her weight loss and loose, really herniated muscles from four childbirths. I have a feeling that she's had some "poor body image" issues that have led to her modesty and lack of sexual initiative, and I have a feeling that once she's all healed up that she may stick her pretty little toes back into the sexual waters. I honestly don't know how I'll respond, as that part of me is pretty dead now, and has been for quite awhile, and I'm not sure that I want to rescousitate it.
Quote: Choc won't leave, at least right now, because he feels a sense of duty and obligation to his family. That is how he defines himself. I see this as self-centered.... but not in a bad way. This is at the center of Who He Is.
What I do see as the potential underlying problem with BOTH he and Mrs. Choc., is their lack of willingness to be radically honest with one another. It sounds like they are both avoiding the R to get by. This, I could say, is 'selfless.' But I don't necessarily see that this type of selflessness is in the best interest of anyone.
BOTH spouses are being neglected and neglecful. BOTH spouses are being 'selfless.' IMHO, one of them is eventually going to regain their sense of self, and either take things to the mat or leave.
Corri, I think that's all largely true, but I would also add "comfortable" to my list of reasons for not leaving, and who knows, maybe it's part of my wife's reasons too. Don't get me wrong, I take that "for better or for worse" stuff very seriously, and when I tuck my kids into bed at night there are so many times when I get thoughts in my mind of what a divorce would do to them, and it motivates me to stay. But I just feel a little uncomfortable taking the high moral road here, when a lot of my conflict avoidance is just pure complacency. When you add up what my marriage DOES provide for me (a great, moral mother for my kids; a stable home environment for them; companionship for me; homecooked meals; etc.), and what does for my wife (companionship; security; a father in her children's lives; a help around the house), my strong hunch is that we're BOTH just more happy with what we DO have, and unwilling to force the issue on what we DON'T have.
Now, lest I fall into total "moral equivalency" here, I do think that I'm bothered by all of this 50x more than she is (those little lists I made -- hers is mostly complete... mine has a big ol' "LACK OF AFFECTION AND SEX!" on it). But we are both, I'm certain, just avoiding the problem because it's just not that bad around here.
I accept full responsibility for me being the one to get out of my M.