Quote: MrsNop just listed in one of her postings about 20 reasons why women loses desire, and guess what. Men have NOTHING to do with ANY of them.
Guess even more what.
Women have little to do with it either.
Pregnancy, birth control, testosterone, age - there's not a lot of personal control over the consequences of any of those.
Which kinda gives an oopsie to the idea that all/many/most LD wives are getting some kind of sick kick out of tricking their spouses with "fake" sexual behavior early in the relationship.
That includes your wife, Cemar. The woman was HD for several years, initiating with you (did you initiate at all during the early years?) so should you really keep declaring that she deceived you, tricked you?
When/if hormones wane, the relationship can pick up the slack if both partners work toward that.
Is your head hurting yet from banging it against the wall by responding to CeMar? I've started (and stopped) writing a post in response to CeMar several times, but I simply find it exhausting to continue to try to dialogue with him.
I know...you are probably responding so OTHERS get the benefit of your words (and that's a good thing . I've come to the conclusion however that CeMar WANTS to believe this is all being done to him, he WANTS to be the victim in all of this and believe that his W is conciously choosing to do this horrible thing to him and that there is nothing he can do to influence anything within his M. Because of that outlook, nothing in his M will change. Sorry CeMar, but it's true.
I feel that we can continue to beat our heads against the wall with him...and in the end all we will have is sore, bloody heads.
I probably shouldn't have even posted this in regards to him but felt I needed to say something towards your valiant efforts to open his eyes.
Gel, I'm sorry, couldn't read what you posted because my eyes were crossed from a recent head beating...
I find I am real curious whether or not Cemar ever initiated in their early relationship. Cemar, want to let me know?
I confess to getting a little twitchy at the "wife set me up" assertions. I know that sort of thing happens, but I think it's the exception rather than the norm.
Quote: I confess to getting a little twitchy at the "wife set me up" assertions. I know that sort of thing happens, but I think it's the exception rather than the norm.
MrsNOP -
I think its the "norm" for it to *feel* that way. heck, I believe Michelle even talks about this very thing in the book. So it ain't just ol' CeMar making this up. the "big picture" or "reality" of the situation isn't important; its how it feels. But as far as that goes, I could list a number of grievances that are often claimed as causes or contributors to the LD situation...so why aren't I LD? because I'm just not. I suspect there's a "genetic predisposition" for the condition. some people are susceptible, and some aren't.
What happens first, the drop in desire, or the fall off of attention from the man? My guess is that in most cases, it is the fall off in desire.
In my case, the drop of both desire and attention came when I was pregnant with my first child. I had some problems in the beginning and could not have intercourse. H never wanted to touch me in any sexual way during my whole pregnancy, and things never really got better.
Quote: I still do all kinds of stuff for my wife and family.
Wow, how wonderful! You do stuff w/o getting any sex as a reward! What a man! This was not so so in my case; I certainly would not presume to speak for anyone else.
Quote: If getting desire was as easy as wining and dining our wives, us guys would be all over that.
Why do you assume that you ALL try that? My H didn't. Oh, unless by "wining" you mean getting me drunk. In any case, you missed the point here: wining and dining is not the answer. There's a whole lot more, which I know has been discussed at length on this bb. I don't post here, but I do read.
Quote: Men have NOTHING to do with ANY of them.
Again, I can only speak from my own experience, but here are some of my reasons:
1. Being raped at age 5 by A MAN
2. My father, a MAN, making inappropriate comments about my body, as well as remarks that contributed to my poor body image.
3. Being raped again at age 21, by a MAN.
4. Being told by my husband, a MAN, that he likes women with more meat on them, despite that fact that I've always looked the way I do.
5. Being treated like an object during sex with my H, still a MAN, who would tell me change to this or that position, regardless of what I wanted to do, and didn't use loving words with me.
I will stop here. Surprisingly, I'm not a man-hater. I do not know your history with your wife, but you are certainly making some inflammatory and very general statements here based, it seems, on nothing but your own opinion.
Nicola
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
I confess to getting a little twitchy at the "wife set me up" assertions. I know that sort of thing happens, but I think it's the exception rather than the norm.
I think its the "norm" for it to *feel* that way. heck, I believe Michelle even talks about this very thing in the book. So it ain't just ol' CeMar making this up. the "big picture" or "reality" of the situation isn't important; its how it feels.
I understand that some men feel this way. And I absolutely believe that some women enter relationships in such a calculating manner. But a woman who expresses sexuality for a number of years into the marriage, probably isn't one of those.
I believe that one's feelings have to be examined. I also believe that what we tell ourselves impacts those feelings. Believing that your wife set you up, tricked you, manipulated you with sex is going to impact how you act toward her.
I don't think the reasons some women's sex drive declines should be used as excuses to refuse to address the issue, but I do think that the possible causes should be taken into consideration.
Quote:
But as far as that goes, I could list a number of grievances that are often claimed as causes or contributors to the LD situation...so why aren't I LD? because I'm just not. I suspect there's a "genetic predisposition" for the condition. some people are susceptible, and some aren't.
You aren't LD, because you have a functioning amount of hormones, mentality, history, thought process, lack of damage, health, etc. that results in your higher sex drive.
I agree that there probably is something genetic to it. From what I have read, there are multiple causes. For the LD folks who are actively working on the issue, it's not easy and/or simple one to address. It can feel insurmountable to those who haven't fully decided to work on it and it can be quite overwhelming for those who do.
I am a boneified HDM. Genetics, metabolism, hormones, perspective on life, yadayada. As you allready know its been killed previously. Prior to that, I even lost that lovin' feeling.... for x on a couple of occasions.
Currently, I have plenty of sex, but I have no desire ........ Since desire is the EASIEST thing in the world FOR YOU, I sincerely ask you to educate me on how to have this simple thing called desire. I remember it, but I cant find it. Please assist.
I'm willing to accept that the loss of desire in the once-HD wife is not intentional, nor is it malicious, in most cases.
But I don't accept the generalization that most men stop being romantic or exhibiting other wooing behavior, nor do I let the once-HD woman off the hook for what she DOES (or doesn't do) in response to these changes, even if they are non-intentional and lacking in any malevolent motives.
We all speak from our own experiences, and I can only speak authoritatively based on mine. In my marriage, I am the romantic one, I am the complimenting one, and I am the affectionate (even outside of sexual touch) one. Always was, always inherently will be. I've since cut BACK on those things, like many of the HD husbands on here have, out of some combination of hurt, resentment and plain-ol' lack of RESULTS, but to me it comes down to EFFORT:
Once the LD spouse knows what's important to the HD partner, and how it's killing them, how much continual effort are they willing to make to at least TRY?
Quote: Once the LD spouse knows what's important to the HD partner, and how it's killing them, how much continual effort are they willing to make to at least TRY?
Well, since you've addressed this to me, I will answer!
I am not actually LD, I've realized. I came to be so in my M due to some childhood issues that I've now resolved, problems in my R with my H, medication and medical problems, and the way H treated me during sex. So you see, there are a lot of reasons.
I didn't deliberately withhold sex, I just didn't want it. And when I initiated, H turned me down. So eventually, I stopped initiating. I think it was the same for him. I never actually made the connection to H's behaviour and my lack of desire until we separated. I have not had any other sexual (or emotional) relationships since I was married, but I do find that my desire has returned.
I think that if the HD partner tells the LD partner how impt it is for him/her and then MAKES AN EFFORT TO GIVE THE LD PARTNER WHAT THEY NEED, it is certainly up to the LD partner to make an effort, too. Both must make the effort. In the case of my H and me, we both just got angry and resentful, but never talked about it. This was just one of many issues in our marriage that never got dealt with.
Now, we are no longer living together, but we are still married. I don't know what will happen, but if we do reconcile, sex is definitely one the things that we will have to talk about and resolve.
The thing with SD is that it is linked to so many other issues, esp for women I think, but for many men too. I don't know your story, but if YOU are trying, and if you've told your W how you feel, then I personally think that if she's NOT trying, it's not about the sex. Are you in MC?
Nic
Life isn't about finding yourself; it's about creating yourself My thread: Trusting God's Plan
Quote: But I don't accept the generalization that most men stop being romantic or exhibiting other wooing behavior, nor do I let the once-HD woman off the hook for what she DOES (or doesn't do) in response to these changes, even if they are non-intentional and lacking in any malevolent motives.
I agree with you that it isn't necessarily a result of men becoming less romantic. OTOH, there are women who aren't really touched by romanticism. For those women, romantic gestures aren't going to make the connection that the romantic man is attempting to make.
Also, relationship destruction can be similar to the business world in that a lot of "attaboys" are easily displaced by a single "ah poop" moment. Harley calls them lovebusters. The effect of lovebusters grows over the years, because each subsequent negative occurance isn't perceived as isolated, it has all the emotional baggage from the 52 other times it happened over the last 10 years. So, after a couple of years, when the early infatuation chemicals are burned off, the things you once found cute suddenly become irritating. The relationship heads further into decline.
I think a large number of women's sex drives starts waning after either time elapses and/or children. Without knowing *why*, they start casting about for reasons that they aren't feeling that way toward their husband anymore. That's often where the lists of reasons start. That's not usually malicious, it is uneducated.
"I don't feel desire today. Well, how could I when he snapped at me earlier today? How could he want sex from me when I've been chasing toddlers around all day, etc." So, that becomes the reason dejour. The reality is that *they don't know why and they don't know that they don't know why*.
Quote: Once the LD spouse knows what's important to the HD partner, and how it's killing them, how much continual effort are they willing to make to at least TRY?
That's where the strength or weakness of the relationship comes in mixed in with the strength or weakness of both individuals.
When it comes to sex, both HD and LD seem to be insisting that the only good sex *has* to come from "feelings". The HD wants the LD to feel *desire* and *express* that desire in the way the HD perceives desire. The LD spouses is doing exactly the same thing - "I must *feel* desire before I can express myself sexually." So, if they don't *feel* it, it doesn't occur. The horrible irony of it is that HD and LD are looking at sex the exact same way. (All of this particular train of thought is not including those spouses who experience a strong sex drive but who either choose to expend it somehow else and/or who are dealing with psychological issues that impact their ability to express that desire/sexuality with their spouse.)
So, once the LD isn't feeling the desire (and you're supposed to feel desire in order to want/have sex), then what are they supposed to do? As long as everyone is waiting for the desire fairy to show up, the sex life is going to come to a halt. And as long as that feeling of desire is the goal - and the LD spouse can't manufacture it, you will get the "that's just the way I am" defense.
Well, what if we all agreed that there are different reasons for making love rather than insisting that the only sex life that counts is one where both individuals are experiencing sexual desire at the same level and in the same way?
. I've come to the conclusion however that CeMar WANTS to believe this is all being done to him, he WANTS to be the victim in all of this and believe that his W is conciously choosing to do this horrible thing to him and that there is nothing he can do to influence anything within his M. Because of that outlook, nothing in his M will change. Sorry CeMar, but it's true.