Happy Birthday Corri!

[MJontheMend]

did/do you find that your H's are more 'randy' away from home? Or even over the phone? Or not necessarily? Away from home... how was sex?

I would say less randy away from home due to the fact that travel causes him some anxiety. Also, probably due to the fact that he knew that I had higher vacation expectations .

[Lillieperl]

Re touching: my bf is more huggy now than he was in the beginning. We often do the full-body "hugging til relaxed" thing that Schnarch talks about. My bf rarely reaches for me. If I sit down right up next to him on the sofa, he may or may not put his arm around me. The one really touch-y thing we do is the full-body naked spooning, but it is SO not erotic. It's very cuddly-snuggly, but never leads to sexy feelings on my part (this is why I was interested in more detail from you on the other thread).

Re absence making the heart grow fonder: My bf never expresses sexual desire in person, on the phone, or anything. When we first started dating he sent me some very erotic emails, but those were usually late at night when he was drunk. Since he got sober, I can't remember him every expressing sexual desire. Even on those rare occasions that we've had sex of some sort since he got sober (probably eight to nine times since April 2004), it has been more of a snuggly thing that turned sexual, but never a full-blown erotic encounter.

When I went away to a conference last year, he told me every night on the phone how much he missed me, but the night I got back, he sat up until 2:00 AM and fell asleep in front of the TV as usual.

This year when I went to the same conference, I told him that's what he had done the previous year and I didn't want him to do that again. So this year, the night I got back, he did go to bed at the same time I did. Then the next night went back to his routine of staying up way past me.

When we first got together, we used to exchange sexual innuendos and grope-y touches during the day that I thought would lead to some action that night (as those kinds of things ALWAYS had done in past R's), but with bf, they NEVER did. The best example of that is once I gave him a bj outside at my house in the country where it's VERY private, and he stopped me before he came and said how nice it was, etc., and I thought sure he would want to continue later, but he never made any moves in my direction.

Beyond the ED issues, I think he's terrified of sex. I don't think he's ever had really great sex, or really loving sex, or really erotic sex, or anything but routine, boring, threatening, scary, invasive sex. Maybe he's not a good candidate for your survey.

[honeypot]

Betsey,
I can't remember exactly how the convo went, on the first day, but it was something like that. Me fact-finding, him not saying much other than he felt sorry for her, etc. I was not mad or shrew-ish at all.

On the *second* day, I felt irritated but still kept my cool and did the best I could with a fudged up schedule and we revisited the previous days' conversation, somewhat. Not as nice or fact finding and more of a "I thought we talked about this yesterday...?" and him looking abashed but not terribly sorry.

By the third day, I was just incredulous and didn't know how to handle it so I ignored him and just got to work. (honestly, if I lose even a half hour I have to cut out an entire subject or do it later in the day, which I am *loathe* to do, and yes I realize that is my own problem, not his)

So, in dazzling P/A fashion, I end up looking like a hag in D7's eyes and her dad is her henpecked hero who was not entirely successful with his mission. IT SUCKS!

But, in the interest of presenting the whole picture to my bb friends, I asked him a question about the alarm clock the other day and he replied, Oh we resolved that. I don't care about waking her up anymore.
Men.

So here is my question to you, Bets.

I've got what to do on day 1 down. What do I do the next day when I'm stuck in some freakin P/A groundhog day scene?

Corri,
MrH likes hugs but not other forms of touch, like massages or caresses. He is not overly fond of sexual behavior outside the bedroom cause it bums him out that he gets all hot and bothered and then can't do anything about it. He'd rather wait til later but, bless his heart, he has totally changed this attitude cause he knows I like the flirting and ass grabbing, etc.
He is a vacation sex man, provided we are alone. If the kids are there, it's a tossup. Maybe, maybe not.

So here's the final analysis:
He likes physical touch but he prefers: 1) to be the initiator, and 2) for it to be mainly extended hugs with the new addition of ass grabs and the like. He doesn't like to go 'too far' during times when sex is not a possibility and he does not like to be touched randomly, say, while watching tv or reading a book. Then he will recoil and usually ask me to stop. He does not like to be touched while sleeping.

In short, he is very controlling about who touches him and when but he is not anti-touch.

xo

[Underdog]

Corri--Thanks for the newsy e-mail! I'm hoping to reply later this evening.

Honey...

But, in the interest of presenting the whole picture to my bb friends, I asked him a question about the alarm clock the other day and he replied, Oh we resolved that. I don't care about waking her up anymore.

Man, can I tell you that this makes me really angry? From this side of the screen, it actually seems like he's choosing to pick battles with you... I'm just wondering why? Something sounds weird about this.

The fact that you do this more than once in a very short time period tells me something, and it's big. His P/A behaviors aren't subconsciously triggered because of fear--otherwise, he'd either resolve the issue or not resolve the issue but I doubt seriously it would surface again so soon.

Sorry, I'm just sitting here with an incredulous expression on my face, trying to imagine having a groundhog day disagreement on the same subject? It's just beyond me.

So getting back to what I was saying, I see him deliberately baiting you with P/A behavior. Honey, what does he get out of this? I honestly don't know, which is why I'm asking.

From what I've encountered and other friends have experienced, P/A people are just usually fearful in sharing emotions with other people. They've learned that others shame them when they do (FOO stuff), so they emote very indirectly and most ineffectively. So when the recipient of the bait triggers the convo into getting addressed (because they simply do not have the skills in initiating dialogues where feelings are expressed), they kinda sorta get what they want... in that the dance is fulfilled. They emote sideways and all around the block and typically, if the other dance parter is aware of what the purpose is, they can get to some resolution.

But your H doesn't appear to be appeased by your entry into the dance. He initiates again and again, and forces you to dance with him without moving beyond the first step? That step would be keeping things about the alarm clock, and not the fact that he feels whatever he feels about this.

I'm just plain old stumped at *why* he would choose this dance if not to emote sideways? I mean in the kazillion conversations I've had with Mr. Wonderful, he's always managed to squeak out what he was really feeling... "Well, I NEVER wanted to go there on vacation. YOU DID. That's why I gave in, and that's why I'm mad at you now." My dad still does that crap. Rather than just come right out and say he has an opinion, he picks a weird fight with my mom and manages to get there. In the end, he also reveals some revelation like, "I never said I wanted to eat Chinese tonight. I wanted pizza. But as always, you get your way." Your H just doesn't get that far.

Why not?

Is he just stuck on the idea that "No person is gonna control me. And if HP thinks she has carte blanche admission here, I'm just gonna have to continue to thwart her at every attempt"??? There's some type of subconscious subterfuge here, and for the life of me, I can't figure out the motive behind it. So please share.

I do know you asked me a question:

What do I do the next day when I'm stuck in some freakin P/A groundhog day scene?

Since I've never had this scenario, I can't say with any expertise. BUT I think if I were to be put in your shoes, I'd start all over at "how I feel". Something along the lines of, "H, we discussed this yesterday so I'm confused. What else do I need to know here since I thought we resolved this yesterday?" I put feelings into blue... because I'd insert whatever feelings I was feeling, and I'd make them completely honest but mask whatever negative emotion I was feeling when conveying this. That is, keep it matter of fact but identify how you feel.

I'm more than interested in your thoughts on this subject. Because I have to tell you that I'm dang confused about this.

Betsey

p.s. E-mail offer still stands.

[Cobra]

Lil,

Re absence making the heart grow fonder: My bf never expresses sexual desire in person, on the phone, or anything. When we first started dating he sent me some very erotic emails, but those were usually late at night when he was drunk.

This seems contradictory to my impression of your bf and his more recent behavior. I am wondering if he really does have some sort of sexual longings buried deep within him, and the alcohol allowed those feelings to come out, therefore the emails. If people are less inhibited when drunk, no other explanation makes sense to me. Why would he choose a sexually related type of activity when he was drunk, rather than some other subject. It makes me think than he can think about sex, but is scared to do so unless drinking.

This might also make sense if he is feeling a little under the microscope with you. Not to say you are doing anything wrong in setting boundaries, etc., but in then end, his life is different when he is with you than if he were alone. Without you he might still be drinking, but also not having to listen to a woman tell him how he should live, get in touch with his emotions, etc. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean this to sound as harsh as it does, but in some ways it is a no-win situation for you, or for any other woman in your shoes, or at least he might be trying to make it a no-win situation.

Could it be that the very fact he is held to even a minimal level of accountability (out of fear of losing you) that he then feels the control/pressure/intimidation that he felt as a kid under his mother? It just does not make sense otherwise why he is capable of sending erotic emails. Should you two split, is there any chance he would do so again if he met another woman and he was drinking again?

Are you really SURE his ED is physical and not self imposed? I sometimes get the feeling he is ED because he wants to be and resents you calling him out on it. Think about it… For him to get an erection would mean the comfort of his world as he knows it would completely vanish. He would have to step into a new and completely frightening world of emotions, vulnerable without the protection of his ED defensive wall.

[honeypot]

Hmmm, what does he get out of it?

Well clearly he gets to not feel controlled.

I honestly have no idea what else it could be. The ONLY complaint that he has consistently lodged during our 11 yr marriage has been that I try to control him.
For the record, he is just as controlling as I am--and neither of us is all that bad--but we're not supposed to talk about him, are we.

So, yes, it is the repetition that drives me crazy with him, and always has. I have no problem staying calm or speaking in a way that is not inflammatory. But the next day, you're damn right I feel baited.

The only thing I can come up with is that it's really not about me. I mean, it IS but his desire to be a softy with the kids overrides his desire to stick with our agreement.

The real question here is why doesn't he come down after turning off the alarm and say, I turned off her alarm because she should be allowed to sleep in. At least that, I could respect!

Say, we had a situation yesterday in which his sister (who is the meanest cruelest person I've ever met) was berating her husband in front of us. He was asking How High with huge, fearful eyes. MrH was incredulous that he'd do that around her, when he'd tell absolutely anyone else in the world to screw off if they treated him like that. (he is a physically huge person)
I grabbed MrH by the arm and said, If I ever speak to you like that, do not EVER do what he did and morph into a scared little boy. So far, I have managed to stay totally in love with you and still have the hots for you but behavior like that would sap that in a heartbeat.

He made some disparaging remark about women and how they boss you around but if you actually do it, you'll pay the consequences. (lol)

Anyway, thanks for responding, Bets.
Yeah yeah, emailing. I am SO bad about keeping up with email correspondence. But I will fight through that lethargy and send you a bit o honey. lol

adios,
HP

[Lillieperl]

You make some good points, cobra. Let me just summarize by saying that I think you're right about what's going on in his head-- a good assessment... he has said (in front of the C) that he does think about sex all the time, but when it's just us, he doesn't act on it. I think he doesn't act on it because he's afraid of the ED (i.e., his d!ck is not reliable for physical and mental reasons), because his mom screwed up his mind, because he has no positive memories of sex while sober, because he's having job issues again, because he's going through enormous internal changes after the kids left for college and he finally settled with the ex on finances. IOW it's all about HIM as usual. There's always a reason why because of the crises in his life (some self-generated and some imposed from without), it's never time for me/us. And I don't feel like pushing it. I go with him to the C every other week. That's all the effort I feel like making.

BTW, I didn't mean he sent me LOTS of erotic emails back then; I just meant that was the only time I saw explicit evidence of clear undeniable sexual desire-- through the double mask of 1) alcohol and 2) email. In person: never.

[Lillieperl]

Honey, I just wanted to bring this back to what I think blackfoot was saying...

You said to your H re the alarm clock, "if you're going to turn it off, at least" etc.

This does sound a bit like the female doublespeak code that guys sometimes accuse us of.

How would your H have reacted if you had simply said nicely, "Please do not turn off her alarm clock. I need her up at 7." (or whatever time)

No reason, no excuse, no negotiating. A clear statement of what you wanted him to do with no acknowledgement of the possible legitimacy of his disregarding your wishes?

[Cobra]

HP,

I have a different interpretation of your H that what you or UD are discussing. This is what I know of your H:

• His FOO is one of pleasing others, conditioned by fear of fights and intimidation from his dad.
• He has learned to subordinate his feelings and desires for those of others, you included, especially from the earlier days of your marriage.
• His personality lends him to fit in with Marine training and follow orders, all out of a sense of loyalty to the ideal of patriotism, dying for your country, or your “princess” (not meant to be derogatory).
• He is also trained to be aggressive, assertive, and take full charge when necessary.

I am wondering if his actions in wanting your daughter to sleep later is a subtle sign of his assertiveness starting to come forth, after years of being the obedient soldier. I believe he has it in him to take full charge and control if necessary, but he is conditioned not to do so by his FOO, and in part by you. But until now, the kids have been small and mothering infants is obviously not his strong suit. It is a no-brainer for him to leave that up to you. But as this kids get older, he will be better able to relate and bond to them. Also, decisions concerning them will be more important since the effects can be more important and long lasting.

My wife did a lot of schooling with the kids when they were small, insisted they attend Montessori to get a good start and set the ground work for their future education. It was a serious issue with her. In hindsight I cannot tell that it makes a hill of beans worth of difference. Are you more or less educated today because of what your parents did for you when you were 5? I know there are studies out there that say so, but a few years down the line and any advantages early schooled kids may have start to fade.

My point is that you H may have been deferring to you over the past few years, but going forward he might start feeling that the stakes are increasing and he MUST take charge. Now what are you doing to help him become the assertive man you claim you so want to have? I believe you said “Yeah, but I will control that confounded alarm clock.” I’m not so sure that remark was entirely joking. Now you say he has given up on the alarm thing. Has he really, or has he decided the stakes are not high enough to press his point – in other words, did he decide it is better to back down to you over something that may be inconsequential than to risk more fighting? He may be compromising his integrity here, and over time he will become resentful. Remember, he is P/A. This is how it is done.

There might be the chance that things get worse as the kids get older. I can see a lot of myself in him. When I came to the realization that I was the one walking on eggshells and it was my own fault for not standing up for myself, then all that pent up resentment and anger came out. Don’t repeat this mistake.

As for UD’s confusion over your H – I think the missing ingredient is that your H has a lot of pride. It is difficult for his to express any weakness, he is a marine after all. He knows he should assert himself (remember his training) but he knows that not doing so is his fault. He wants to stay in the dance with you because you bring him the life, the emotion, sense of involvement and love he never had as a child. If he loses you, he loses his touchstone to life. He just can’t find where to balance it all.

I can understand now why discussing emotions with him is uncomfortable. Doing so is to play on your terms, the feminine playing field. He may have an idealized, fantasy impression that women are to be treated like a princess and the only way to communicate with then is with this emotional level talk. No wonder he would rather go run you a bath. You see, you have set the parameters of your communications to be that of the female. He has no idea that he should be able to speak to you from the parameters of the male. He has let you decide the rules of the game, now he is having trouble finding the way to play. He should just chuck out those rules entirely and say he is going to play by the rules that his is comfortable with, and let you adapt. Do you see what I mean? It’s a can’t see the forest for the trees sort of thing for him.

Now the other part of this is that I think you are aware of these dynamics, but you do not let him play by those other rules. This might be why he feels he cannot win and that you control him. He will let this go on for a while, but when the stacks are serious enough (and there is nothing like children to make a man get serious) then you will see that assertive man come forth. Whether it is right or wrong, due to blinding from his FOO, projection of his issues, or whatever your want to call it, just be sure he doesn’t start to one day target you as the enemy. I know that my W looked like this to me, and I to her.

[Underdog]

Cobra--I had not taken Mr. HPs Marine training into account, and you may well be on to something there. I'm going to cogitate a bit while working out in a few minutes. Interesting.

He wants to stay in the dance with you because you bring him the life, the emotion, sense of involvement and love he never had as a child. If he loses you, he loses his touchstone to life. He just can’t find where to balance it all.

Oh, Cobra, I didn't mean the dance of their R/M. Yikes! I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was referring to their communication dance... and nothing in the bigger picture.

Since most P/As I know are merely attempting to find a back door into revealing how they feel, her H clearly doesn't take the opportunity to slide in any commentary on this... for example, even if he said, "It pisses me off that D7 has to get up when you tell her to get up", it's still revealing a feeling. He just closes the convo and picks it up the next day? It's just got me a bit confounded, and I admit to having the sense that his deliberate P/A behaviors are backspeak to HP that no woman is gonna control him, not no how, not nowhere. That's my gut feeling, and I'm not saying it's right, but HP has been at this control issue for awhile, and I'm wondering why he continues to cast her as the control freak.

And yes, Honey, I do see this in him. Rather than just come out and tell you that you are bugging him, he's just winding around sideways.

Again, Cobra, I'm going to think about your observations, because you've hit a few nails for me.

He has let you decide the rules of the game, now he is having trouble finding the way to play. He should just chuck out those rules entirely and say he is going to play by the rules that his is comfortable with, and let you adapt. Do you see what I mean? It’s a can’t see the forest for the trees sort of thing for him.

Exactly! I think you got this one, Cobra. So why is it that he just can't tell her the fricking rules so she can play the game his way?

Lil--You can't imagine how much I appreciate your post. I sure as heck wish people allowed me to do that sort of thing and it didn't come back to bite me in the a$$. For the record, too bad we're all not married to each other. This would be a hell of a lot easier!

How would your H have reacted if you had simply said nicely, "Please do not turn off her alarm clock. I need her up at 7." (or whatever time)

No reason, no excuse, no negotiating. A clear statement of what you wanted him to do with no acknowledgement of the possible legitimacy of his disregarding your wishes?

Man, I'd love to hear what Honey has to say here. I can tell you how that would have worked for me. It would have triggered all manner of tangential P/A behaviors... let's say that the main issue for me was the alarm clock thing.

Also on the schedule during that given week was my regular bunco night. And the fact that he had to pick up one of our daughters for a doctor appointment the following afternoon. And our other D had a school function Thursday evening where the schedule was tight. He'd have maneuvered all sorts of things that were beyond his control...

His boss would have walked in his office just as he was leaving on the night of my bunco shindig and asked him to produce some urgent documents. For D's doctor appointment, the base would have had to go to lockdown and he wouldn't have been able to get there in time, so could I please take off? And he would have been sidetracked by a customer call which made him run late, which got him stuck in traffic... unable to pick D up for her choir concert. But he'd meet us there.

KWIM? And now that I see this in print, it's making me sick. Because this is how I lived my life for a really long time. Only I didn't see how my perceived control was affecting him, and instead of dealing with me off the top of the deck, he wiggled around it. And if I asked him point blank if there was something I did or said to bother him, he'd then tell me that I assume everything is wrong and to get thicker skin.

All of that would have been necessary because he never had the balls to come right out and say, "Bets, I feel you are controlling me in every aspect of our marriage. I hate it."

And please know I'm not playing connect-the-dot with HP. Her sitch is clearly different. I just know that until I changed how I communicated with him--giving him clear choices in how he interacted with me and not punishing him for not doing things my way--we were absolutely stuck in this horrid dance.

Cobra, you sound a whole lot like my XH. And sadly, I've read your posts and there are quite a few traits in your W that resonate with the old me. It makes me sad, and I pray hard that the 2 of you can find your way to a happy means of communicating your feelings and needs without having to travel the path I took.

For the record, Mr. W. told our D12 this summer that his leaving me was his P/A way of avoiding fighting with me for control. He told her we had never fought and he didn't want her to see us fight, so it was easier for him to just walk away. She logged a few months in IC dealing with her feelings about his truths. She didn't like what he had to say, but I'll say that she was finally happy her dad talked to her about why he really left. She actually knows more about his need to leave than I do. And frankly, that still bothers me.

Whether it is right or wrong, due to blinding from his FOO, projection of his issues, or whatever your want to call it, just be sure he doesn’t start to one day target you as the enemy. I know that my W looked like this to me, and I to her.

Nodding my head. This is exactly how things played out in my house. And it got us a D. A big fat D. I will offer you hope though, friend. I finally *did* choose to grow up and take responsibility for my words and actions. I don't see my XH as a villain or an alien or a jerk. I may not like his choices, but the fact is, he wakes up and does the best job he possibly can. It may not be my best or your best, but it's his best. And I accept this. Life goes on.

More on that later, if you need to go there. I hope I don't have to start a new thread here, so maybe I'll just come over and visit you instead.

For the record, my XH shares 3 out of those 4 initial traits you listed for Mr. HP. I thank you for sharing your observations.

Betsey