You know my first reaction to that was Oh (insert bad word) I can't do that. That would be too...much. Then I thought about it some more
Im inclined to believe your first reaction.
Looks like more of this... yet there was this weird battle going on in my mind cause I didn't want him to know how much I enjoyed it--how much I need him. In the end, I stuttered out, No I love it
Quote: If you are going to turn off her alarm, just tell me so I dont get upset with her for not obeying the 'rules'. This is what I said the first time he did it. So I mistakenly thought that he understood not to do it again and THAT is where I made my mistake. So the next day, instead of reacting like I did the first day I got irritated and said Why do you keep turning her alarm off? By the 3rd day it was just hard for me to keep my cool but I did. See I'm not really a control freak .......... that attitude irks him off and yet I can't come up with a way to handle these types of situations. Eventually I get what I want.
Do you?
I wonder what sort of feeling of respect a man receives, when his wife feels the need to control him, to get what she wants. Even if you do get what you want, the 1st day comment is veery incongruent with what you are thinking and continuing to do. If you meant what you said the first day, you would just question him why he didnt tell you so D7 doesnt get in trouble. If you didnt want him to do it again, you should have said, Dont do it again, I teach her and have to deal with babyP. So dont go buttin in. j/k on that last part.
This is not a judgement or a comment on details of the conflict. Its how its dealt with. If you arent authentic, you can make your demeanor and speech as unangry and as nicey nicey as you want. It only takes a quick 'test' to see if it is authentic or not. Since he did it again and again, Im inclined to think it was a unconcious 'test'.
remember in my prior post, I said, that statement was a tacit acknowledgement that you Can't/won't control him.
IMO, herein lies the tiredness of Mr. LFL, Mr. UD etal. They got tired of feeling controlled, unappreciated. Thats not an excuse, or relieving them of their obligations to deal with conflict. It just is. You can make it nice and impossible for him, assume imaginary 'control', (women are typically infintely better at this) and withhold the verbal acknowledgements, or come at it from your side of the equation towards respecting a deserving H. Whether he deserves it or not is completely in the W's power of perspective.
That last remark, is not directed specifically just at you HP. Youve done alot and come along way towards improving yourself and hence your M. Alot.
I know for certain that MrH feels controlled. I also know that I am on the low end of the spectrum of controlling wives. However, that little nugget really does not matter, since he FEELS controlled, dang it. He has said that he doesn't like feeling controlled and yet I am just as confused reading your post as I am in real life. Would somebody please cough up a man who can communicate clearly?!?!? MrH and blackfoot seem to have the same mindset whereby I end up knowing what I'm not supposed to do, but not really what I *should* do.
For the record, I don't really engage in nicey nice talk. If I'm feeling nice--which I usually am--I will talk nice. If I'm irritated I will usually say it civilly but firmly. Rarely will I grit my teeth and really make a display of my anger, like I used to. Oh hell, let's be honest, I used to just let er rip and start hollering and carrying on. Anyway, my point is that I do my best as far as handling his passive aggressiveness (for that is *exactly* what we are dealing with, when you've got a man turning off the alarm 3 days in a row when he's been asked not to do that by his adoring wife) by revealing my true feelings instead of just resorting to what I'd really like to do. So I might say, H it makes the day go so much easier when the alarm is set--for her and myself. instead of getting in his face and shouting WTF did you do that for, didn't we cover this yesterday??
Quote: that statement was a tacit acknowledgement that you Can't/won't control him.
Yeah, but I will control that confounded alarm clock. Ok, I get what you're saying but I'm still not sure what to DO about it. So I say it, acknowledge that I won't control him, and then my day gets utterly hosed because she's not up early enough and her education suffers?
Fwiw, MrH was the one pushing me to homeschool. Initially I was totally against it. I finally came around to his way of thinkin, and yet he doesn't support me much in this endeavor. I've talked about this with him and that is what finally got him to just go along with the early rising.
MrH handles all of the forces in his life the same way: coddling, indulging and then SNAP he gets ticked and goes off. So he might coddle D7 and let her sleep in and baby her but the next time she leaves her clothes on the floor he will flip out, and scare her half to death.
Interestingly, it was *this* quality that made me want to marry him, LOL. In past relationships I'd get bored pretty quickly and lose interest, somewhat. When I met MrH I thought, Oh I will never be bored with this one. And I was right.
I also know that I am on the low end of the spectrum of controlling wives. hahaha. HAHAHA. <ahem> seriously, Im sure you are. Honestly. I do.
yet I am just as confused reading your post as I am in real life. Would somebody please cough up a man who can communicate clearly?!?!? MrH and blackfoot seem to have the same mindset whereby I end up knowing what I'm not supposed to do, but not really what I *should* do.
Well no one took you up on that offer. Let me see what I can <COUGH> up.
I am not telling you what you *should* do, with specifics, about the case of the alarm clock, because thats NMJ. What you *should* do in regards to this particular conflict is not what I am attempting to point out to you.
If your intent IS to control the alarm clock, then you need to state that, not a inauthentic statement that tells him you are not in control when you actually are.
If your intent is not to control what your H does in another time/place/conflict, then letting him know that with congruent actions would be necessary for your words to be authentic.
for arguments sake, Lets say you didnt want to control the alarm clock, or the situation. you would say... <day 1> If you are going to turn off her alarm, just tell me so I dont get upset with her for not obeying the 'rules'. Then the second day when he does it, to see if you really are relinquishing control (yeah it probably qualifies as P/A.) you would say,... <day 2> I thought you were going to tell me if you turned off the alarm so I dont scold D7? What are we going to do about the issue with BabyPot interuppting D7 classes?
That would show congruence with your words of the previous day and not controlling him.
That is not me making a recommendation for the particulars of this sitch. My opinion on the sitch is entirely different, and not relevant.
Another conversation broaching his P/A, and or requesting that he provide an alternate plan when he negates your plans would also be appropriate. Done with nuetrality and not irritation will further demonstrate that he can act without fear of reprisal.
Heck tell him straight out that you would prefer it if he just did what he wants and then fight with you about it, then act P/A.
Does any of this feel a bit annoying? probably. Does it qualify as radically honest? Thats the whole point. Dont say it if you dont mean it.
When I met MrH I thought, Oh I will never be bored with this one. I have no doubt. Glad to hear it.
Blackfoot, Thank you! That was clear and I got it now. Whether or not I have the patience to carry out this plan, we shall see.
His P/A came up last night and we had a long discussion about it and guess what I ended up saying to him? This:
Quote: tell him straight out that you would prefer it if he just did what he wants and then fight with you about it, then act P/A.
!!
Funny you should mention it. This time it was over D4 and her preschool. He thinks kids don't need preschool, I think they do. Well "need" is a strong word, so please don't pick that apart but you kwim. I finally gave in to his wishes (there I go submitting again, will it ever end) but told him that I have no respect for him when I submit to harrassment rather than direct communication. He agreed to try and curb his complaining. If that happens, I will consider this a huge improvement within our lives and well worth scrappin preschool.
Despite what I've written here the last few days, we agree on nearly all child rearing decisions but, as you can see, when MrH and I don't agree on something very rarely does it get worked out in an adult way--either I give in and do what he wants and that's that, or he gives in and then harrasses me about it (read: incessant complaining) until I give up, in exasperation.
It does not create warm fuzzies in me.
Plus, if there are any fellas out there who do this...for pete's sakes, there is really nothing more unattractive than a P/A man. I mean, they really turn a woman's stomach. It is not in my H's character to 'get in my face' and so forth, and that is fine...quiet but direct communication would be MUCH preferable to his underhanded sneakiness. Also, validating a P/A man is very hard because, quite simply, I do not trust his motives. I don't trust that what he is saying because he is not being direct.
But.....MrH and his hairdog-like ways were able to pull me out of my irritated mood and by the end of the long convo, we were laughing and hugging.
Ok, I'm off to read your message again. I really need to memorize how to phrase these things so I am sure to do it right. It is really not my intention to control him. I am not one of those list-obssessed people who rigidly adhere to a schedule and freak if anything interrupts it. I am quite easygoing. But I do feel that, as her teacher, I need *some* measure of control over how the day goes and so I insist on being the boss of the applesauce wrt her education.
Lots more thoughts circulating..me trying to absorb the idea that I control him. Criminately, I'm seeing it.
I hear you loud and clear on the P/A behaviors. They SUCK! You know I married and divorced one of P/As finest... it still irks me, but I actively work on what I'm doing that contributes to that vicious cycle. And yep, ultimately I see my own behaviors as triggers for him to feel uncomfortable enough to engage at that level. If Mr. HP is anything like Mr. W., he's not enlightened enough to stop and think how *HE* can change his response to alter the outcome. Unfortunately, that leaves it up to you and me.
You might be wondering why I'm willing to do this post-D. I'll tell you. I still have to interact with him every day. And every day, he makes decisions that affect me. It is in my long term best interest to make changes possible so we can get along for eternity. I'd rather be interacting with him openly than running for cover when he starts that P/A sh!t. I've learned to address fire with fire, and 99% of the time, it works.
Let's use you for an example. You've given us some really useful information about the homeschooling alarm clock issue. And yes, I do see why he feels controlled. But GF, I also see why you're wondering WTF is he doing since your schedule is impacted by a variety of things. For the record, it was not difficult at all for me to envision myself in your shoes with Mr. W. doing the same thing. For whatever reason, he feels guilty about decisions he makes that impact others... So let's go over another imaginary dialogue, ala Betsey's new and improved style. I'll warn you that it is direct, and Mr. W. was QUITE taken aback the first time I did it. But bear with me, okay? Because it has really set the stage for some very lasting changes in our communication dynamics (minus the P/A). And yep, 99.5% of the time, Mr. Wonderful's P/A episodes are fear triggers resulting from my actions and words. His #1 fear (in my mind, that is) is being controlled by another person. FOO issues for him in a big way. Let's go, I'm you and Mr. W. is Mr. HP.
HP: "Sweetie, you've said before that you turn off the alarm clock because you feel bad for D that she has to get up so early for her schooling. Is that all of it, and is that true?"
MrHP: "Pretty much."
HP: "Why do you feel bad for her?"
MrHP: "I just do. [Insert whatever BS he might use as a smoke screen for guilt for his decision that affected you and your children.]
HP: "Have you changed your mind on the homeschooling?"
MrHP: "No! We both agreed that it's important. Why would you say that?"
HP: "Well, I'm just asking. Because from where I sit, I feel that you are sabotaging my efforts in successfully homeschooling her. "
MrHP: "No I'm not. There you go again, making assumptions on stuff."
HP: "I'm asking. I'm not telling you what you're doing. I'm telling you how I feel. Let me elaborate on why I feel that way. We have 3 daughters who require all my energy during the course of the day. I'm a mom, homemaker, chauffeur, personal assistant, shopper and teacher, among others. In order for me to continue to wear all those hats successfully, I've worked out a schedule that works for all of us. D and I know that early morning is the best time for her school work, and while we both are tired in the mornings, it's something we do. She'd be getting up if she were to hop on the school bus as well, so I don't feel our schedule is unreasonable."
MrHP: "Uh..."
HP: "She and I both NEED to follow this schedule. I want to make sure she's provided with the best possible education since I'm doing the job, and having to do it around the other 2 girls, particularly BabyPot, whose needs are still incredible as she's a toddler. If D can't get the education we both know she needs, she's going to suffer in the long run. So if you'd rather her go to school and get up a bit later, do you think we can talk about it so I know exactly what you're thinking? Because you turning off the alarm clock is setting her back, and it's not fair to her."
Okay, so here are my oh-so-specific rules when discussing these things with Mr. Wonderful:
1. Be direct and specific. 2. Don't attack his behavior or intent. Instead, focus on sharing with him how you feel. Repeat after me: How I feel is the problem, so I'll make sure I'm very specific when I share HOW I FEEL. 3. Provide examples that lead to how you feel, tying his actions without criticizing. Try to keep things as factual as possible. 4. Recap. 5. Shut up and listen when you're done.
I'm going to say that most of Mr. W's P/A maneuvers are done as a result of him feeling guilty about something and not feeling comfortable enough to share why he's feeling that way. So if there is the most remote chance that Mr. HP feels guilty, I'll bet that he's zeroed in on it, and rather than share his feelings with you (cause for whatever reason he still feels unsafe or controlled, and that is not all your fault) he sabotages you so you react and he feels better.
I can think of at least 10 past experiences where this has been true for me. They've all been vastly different, but are varying themes of his unwillingness to share how he feels--especially if his feelings have changed or if he's feeling guilty about something.
I absolutely HATE dealing with a P/A man. It sucks beyond belief. But I've learned a lot in 4 years, and for the most part, I can head things off at the pass. Oh, and in the beginning, I always reminded him that it was safe to share with me, no matter how bad it came out. I had to earn trust, but I forced myself to hear how he felt. Periodically, I remind him that it's okay if he's mad at me but to share with me. When he does, I can handle everything else.
Corri has my e-mail if you want to chat more offline.
And BF--I went back and re-read parts of Laura Doyle the other night. Funny. I didn't find that book offensive at all on that go around. I still find some of the concepts irritating as hell, but I was a whole lot more receptive to her ideas this time around. Whoever said you can't teach an old dog a new trick was wrong. I'm an old dog, and I think I've learned a lot of new tricks. Not bad, eh? So one of these days, I'll be the surrendered wife to someone who appreciates the fact that I have thorns and periodically bite.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
For me...my H has been reluctant to touch me. He had always waited for me to start ANYTHING in the past. Fortunately that is slowly starting to change.
Quote: In your experience with your LDH's... do they seem to be reluctant to touch you, reluctant to be touched... or both?
My H was both. Now that I rarely touch him he initiates touch quite frequently. It's really kind of mind-boggling to me how easily I lost the habit or compulsion to touch him. Just "not-doing-it" really worked. The hardest thing was getting over my ridiculous notion that I was being mean if I didn't continue to hug someone who froze up like a stick when I did. However, I continue to believe that it is mean to not hug somebody back when they hug you so I am a hug-backer, not completely hug-LD.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Okay...further questioning of the HD ladies... did/do you find that your H's are more 'randy' away from home? Or even over the phone? Or not necessarily? Away from home... how was sex?
I'm formulating a theory, so bare with me. It may or may not fit into the whole chocolate/pretzels Grand Theory of Everything...
