What I was trying to say is that I think you two need to be radically honest with each other, to understand where your true anxieties come from, which in turn trigger the behaviors in each of your that keep you distant. You have mentioned in the past some of his FOO stuff, that he is a people pleaser, that he always tries to please his parent, that his dad was verbally abusive and intimidating…. He seems to want to emulate both his parents in a way, being the macho navy seal on one hand, but on the other trying to be empathic (as he saw modeled by his mother) and please you and everyone else.
Those two characteristics seem diametrically opposed and keep pulling him back and forth so much that sometimes I get the impression he is running around in a fog, just going through the motions of what everyone expects him to do, but not really knowing himself why he is doing them. His world is focused on everyone else but him. He is a product of a narcissistic family environment (not meaning that any family members are narcissistic.)
That would drive anyone nuts. He seems to depend on you for his emotional support, just as I bet he depended on his mom as a child. Your emotional state tells him how safe his emotional state can be. Before the kids came along, pleasing you fit right in with what he had always known, pleasing his dad. It was familiar. I don’t remember your past, but something causes you to need continual validation from your H. Possibly the HD you had some time back was a way of confirming his connection to you. That is why I once asked if you could have a sex addiction. I don’t think that is the case now, but in a way, could you have looked to sex and the connection not for any addictive reasons, but more as a way to fight off some anxiety of abandonment? (I don’t know this and am only asking.)
You have wondered why your drive is now fallen off. A though flashed through my mind today that maybe you are finding stronger attachment to your kids, now that they are getting a little older and can better interact with you. I thought this because you mentioned to Corri how much more difficult it is to receive than give (though you have changed that statement now). My thought was that maybe you have a certain amount of avoidance in you too, and like my wife, are finding it easier and safer to bond with the kids that with your H. (Again, just guessing.) This would not be a good thing to develop.
With this hypothesis, which is in a way a repeat of my own marriage, the thing to focus on is getting to the root of your issues (both you and your H), identifying what are your fears, and agreeing that any soothing given each other is to address those fears and tame the dragon. But accepting that soothing is difficult if you do not believe you have any fears in the first place. I think your H cannot or will not face his vulnerabilities, so when you try to comfort him, he reacts. It is like you are sticking it in his face. As you slowly turn more toward your kids, his reactions could begin to pull the two of you apart. It’s been known to happen before. Does that make sense?
Cobra, Good stuff! Thank you for taking the time to write this out.
You nailed H perfectly. You probably nailed me too but I'm so close to the trees that it's hard to tell sometimes, kwim? I don't remember ever 'needing' sex as a validation sort of thing--honestly I just like it and don't see why people wouldn't want to do it. Even as a teenager when all the girls seemed to be focused on how they fended this or that guy off, I thought Man what a waste. Don't get me wrong..I was a virgin too but I soooooooo wanted to give in and that seemed to separate me from my sisters-in-acne. Did I use it to soothe fears of abandonment? Not really. I did not use my sexuality to reel men in. That was not my style. I did (and do) have fears of abandonment but my method was more to pick men I was sure would not hurt me, rather than going after an unknown and then using sex to keep him in line. Re: my kids. I don't think I have changed wrt to them. I've always loved bonding with them during the day but am SO ready to bond with H at night. How he fits in bonding with everyone all at once, I'll never know.
I didn't realize I had flip flopped my statement on whether I think it's easier to give or receive but it doesn't surprise me. I'm a woman. We do that. Seriously, I'm not trying to be flip, I just am not sure what I may have said earlier. It has, historically, been easier for me to receive than give and if I said it differently, I apologize for the confusion.
Oh and happy birthday Blackfoot! Hope you have a good one. I too remember being 34. Oh yeah. That's cause it was last year, lol.
Friends, I'm exhausted today. My middle daughter knocked my older daughter's front tooth out; I left that out of my earlier post. Then BabyPot dumped over not one, not two but three bowls of tomato soup (mato poop to her) on the floor, etc etc. Cobra, if it seems like I'm all over the place sometimes, I swear it's this more than trying to be evasive. I just don't know what the frick I feel at any given moment!
Ah well, the day will be over soon and the kids had a grand ol time (with the exception of the impromptu dental work) so it's all good.
"whatever happens, we can get through it." exactly.
Burgbud.
Whirlwind of incompetance & You are seriously messed up. No wonder women like you.
You got me laughing so hard my ribs hurt. Its even funnier because your one of us. Oh criminey Im gonna pass out from paroxysms of laughter.
What sort of a thing would a woman say that would get that response from you? Are you being sincere, or trying to get me to hang myself? hmmm.
When they start up conversations about what kind of house they want to have, where they want to live,or how many pets, and what kind, which usually leads to number of children the sex and there names. or even more mundane but specific things like attending a function that is going to occur in 3 months, (remind me and ask again a week before)whose family are we going to spend the holidays with... (excuse me? Im gonna spend it with mine. I dont know about you. Im going skiing for christmas. No I dont know who Im going with yet). its a little um ridiculous, considering that --after a few weekly or bi monthly meetings and a familiarity consisting of an hourly sum total of less then a day or two, <internal voice> you dont know me, and I sure the heck dont know you. It usually happens while driving. Since its pretend... I wanna live in the taj mahal. the left wing is for my harem, the right wing is for the sports complex. I want a space shuttle in the garage. The boys will be named B1-B20, and the Girls will be named G1-G20. Ohh be serious?? here let me consult my crystal ball. I had plans once before but it didnt quite happen that way. So I upgraded to the High Def, digital crystal ball plan. Im sure this time will be differant. Right now Corri is correctly saying, no more sauce BF. LOL.
I was 34 not that long ago. Man, I was dumb. Sorry to hear that. I feel your pain.
The kind of discusson that you described amounts to a woman's way of finding out where you are in the R or for some women (depending on where they are in the R) just making conversation about something that they are interested in. IMO - your only duty is to respond to the stated message. "Oh, you'd like to have 3 daughters by the time you are 40? Well, that sounds nice. Personally, I'm working on finding someone to make a life with and not making decisions on children yet." (or whatever the case is for you). It could be that what all these women need to hear from you is.... "Ya, know - I just got divorced and I don't intend to make any long term plans about relationships, homes, marriage, or children for a good, long while."
My personal take on where you are is that you are making some defensive choices right now - keeping the walls up and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. There are times in life when the walls have a purpose. When you find the person for whom it is worth it to take the walls down you'll know. IMO, you are doing fine.
Anyway, Happy Birthday. Will you spending it with any of the contestants for the Mrs. Blackfoot contest (kidding) or are you doing something else?
Sorry, girlfriend, I've been thinking about you and this whole giving/receiving thing... and I'm having a hard time letting it go.
I just don't think we've correctly identified the type of giving/receiving you are struggling with... so I'm going to take a shot at it, and you can tell me if I'm in the right neighborhood.
I don't think you have a problem g/r with tangible things, like presents, or even superficial intangible things, like compliments or help with the dishes.
I think it centers more on what I guess I call soul g/r.
For example. I am the FIRST person to rush in and comfort a friend, bring them a casserole, offer emotional support. Where I absolutely SUCK is in asking for help. I hate the thought of ME inconveniencing someone. So I don't ask... when I could really use the help. It makes me feel guilty that, 1), I planned so piss poorly that I got myself into a jam (and I can't even admit if something is beyond my planning... I think I should have just KNOWN)... and 2), I have to ask someone to help get me out of the jam. Ewh.
But in doing something like this, I rob myself and a friend of a 'soul exchange.' I rob them of feeling good about helping me... and I avoid the guilt I feel in having to ask. I would infinitely rather someone just 'notice' I need help and 'do it' so I don't have to ask.
As a single mother, I have gotten over this very quickly. pains me greatly to admit that. Ah well. I hung up my SuperWoman Cape.
On another level, which I don't think you have a problem with... is asking for what I would like sexually. I feel like the act of 'asking' is somehow taken as a criticism of the other person. But in not asking, I cannot receive. Which... once I get over myself and ask... I actually have to let it happen. Ugh. I'm GETTING OVER that one in a very delicious way.
Another one I have a hard time with is allowing someone to comfort me, and JUST FORGET me asking for it. I rarely cry.... at least in front of others, especially an intimate partner. I'm still struggling with this one.
There was one night I got upset about something, can't remember what... and instead of just 'letting it out,' I waited until he fell asleep, got up, went into another room so I wouldn't wake him, and let loose.
Well. I guess he wasn't asleep because he came looking for me. My god I was mortified. He was having none of it. He didn't say a word, just sat down behind me, pulled me into him, and held me. And as I was too far into my crying jag and could not stop even if I wanted to... I just continued on, feeling mortified... but... oddly comforted by the fact that he was just sitting there and making no big deal of it.
So he caught me in the act, and the whole g/r thing happened in spite of me... but I still have a hard time being sad in front of him. I don't know why... and I've gottent to the point that I don't care why, I just want to get over it... because I rob him and me of a very deep intimate exchange.
Ugh, god it sucks. Big kahoonas. But... I am getting such a charge out of discovering this very unexplored side of me, that the fear of it... whatever it is... is being overshawdowed by my extreme curiosity over whether I can do it again or not. I'm so proud of me when I do...
So... is this the type of giving/receiving that you are talking about?
Nice post… Damn, I wish my W would read this board! Anyway, this is EXACTLY what I am talking about regarding attachment issues.
But in doing something like this, I rob myself and a friend of a 'soul exchange.' I rob them of feeling good about helping me... and I avoid the guilt I feel in having to ask. I would infinitely rather someone just 'notice' I need help and 'do it' so I don't have to ask.
Kinda goes back to the one-up idea, doesn’t it. Having to ask makes you feel vulnerable and one-down. It is a loss of control, IMO, and why it is scary. Robbing your mate of a “soul exchange” moment also robs him of the chance face his issues and give comfort. Until you allow this opportunity to happen, he is stuck in his growth too. For him to feel bonded, he needs to practice bonding, not just talk about it. To not let him practice keeps a shield around you.
Kinda goes back to the one-up idea, doesn’t it. Having to ask makes you feel vulnerable and one-down. It is a loss of control, IMO, and why it is scary. Robbing your mate of a “soul exchange” moment also robs him of the chance face his issues and give comfort. Until you allow this opportunity to happen, he is stuck in his growth too. For him to feel bonded, he needs to practice bonding, not just talk about it. To not let him practice keeps a shield around you.
I agree with you 100% on this one. Absolutely. This was a MAJOR mistake I made in my M. Major.
But I am he!! bent for sideways not to let it happen again.
Sorry Cobra, have to add an addendum to my last post. You knew it was coming anyway...
I have to say, in all honesty, that one of the reasons why I am working so hard in showing my true emotions with him is because he does so with me, and I admire the he!! out of that. He has no problem crying in front of me... now... if I had chastized him for it... we'd have a different ball game... but I so admire his courage in willing to show himself to me in weak moments that I honor it as it comes... with the due respect it deserves. That's a heck of a thing for a man to do, IMHO.
He does the same thing sexually. And I think to myself, well by golly, if he is willing to step up to the plate and tell me what he is thinking and feeling, and what he would like to try or not try, then dam it, he deserves the same from me.
It hasn't all gone like clock work, mind you, and I have had to stretch myself beyond all limits I thought myself capable. But we stumble along, and laugh our azzes off when we absolutely tank on an effort.
I think this may fall into the category of what Blackfoot calls male 'leading.' And I am mirroring.
I have to say... I like this stuff.
Now, just so I don't make it sound like everything is all sunshine and roses... I've also had to... gulp... stick to a few boundaries (I only have a few, but they are important). And it hasn't been easy. There have been times when I've let him hang out there on his own on an issue because I've had to respect my own boundaries... but in the end... I think he respects me for it. And he's done it once or twice with me.
And though they are very uncomfortable moments... the 'doing' of it is never as bad as my mental fear of it. And that encourages me.
Except for the crying/comforting thing. That's still a toughie for me. But I'm working on it.
Corri, Yes that's much closer. Especially the You Can't See Me Cry business. That's just hittin the nail on the head.
The letting people help me..well, a little. Not much though, truthfully.
I have done the same thing with not letting MrH see me cry. True, when he does see it, he acts like a fool but the God's honest truth is that I don't want him to see it anyway. I think that's why I brought it up...because I recognize that I need to get more intimate with him but that we are both going to have to grow up a little, first. I think I can work through my own inhibitions but, at the same time, he has to learn how to support me and not put pressure on me to stop. Further, I have to think of a way to teach him how to do this..how I need it done. I'm still working on that one. Just yesterday we were conversing about D7 getting her tooth knocked out and he interrupted me and said, Oh and I guess this is my fault. I said, WHAT are you talking about? and sorta laughed because of the absurdity of the question. He said, Whenever you get that tone in your voice I assume I've done something wrong. I said, Well I think that is your problem, then, because I do not think any such thing--I was just telling you about it. Now, Cobra, before you jump on me, I said that nicely but firmly, kwim? I didn't snap at him but at the same time, I aint taking responsibility for that, no sirree bob. I have worked too hard over the years to curb my anger and snottiness and ask for things in a nice way, even if I am friggin fuming on the inside. So he's not going to turn his anxiety around on me.
Corri, back to you. Here is a snippet from last night: Scene: MrH rubbing my feet while I read a magazine. (yes I have a hard life, lol) In my mind, I am thinking how doggone wonderful it was and it was hitting the spot and that I should really tell him this and before I knew what I was doing, a contented sigh slipped out. He misinterpreted it--as he always does, gotta put the negative spin on absolutely everything, ya know--and said, Oh you want me to quit? And I froze up. WHY I have no idea. I was fighting internally because I wanted to say "My gosh no, it is the most wonderful thing I've felt all day" and yet there was this weird battle going on in my mind cause I didn't want him to know how much I enjoyed it--how much I need him. In the end, I stuttered out, No I love it. He said, You DO? I said oh yeah it is hitting the spot, thank you *so* much for doing it.
I've got to learn to let him in on a reliable basis. Me giving him WOA is no problem for me. Me letting him see that I need him, what is going on internally with me, is a whole other ballgame. I'm sporadic with that one.
MrH always jokes around that he has no 'feelings' and, truthfully, I don't see his emotions all that often. Funerals don't phase him much. Our kids don't make him get misty. But, Corri, reading that 4 inch thick binder in my basement clued me in real fast--this guy goes pretty deep. Why he won't let me see that side I don't know and don't care but it bothered me a lot that he wrote letters to me and put them in the binder instead of giving them to me cause he could not trust my reaction. I want to change that.
I have done the same thing with not letting MrH see me cry. True, when he does see it, he acts like a fool but the God's honest truth is that I don't want him to see it anyway. I think that's why I brought it up...because I recognize that I need to get more intimate with him but that we are both going to have to grow up a little, first. I think I can work through my own inhibitions but, at the same time, he has to learn how to support me and not put pressure on me to stop.
Two comments…. 1) How can he be your prince charming and rescue you if you won’t allow yourself to be the damsel in distress? 2) Not being the damsel in distress doesn’t give him the opportunity to practice supporting you, it doesn’t create the feeling within him of ever having to rescue you and he therefore sees no reason not to pressure you. But I bet he understands that with your daughter.
Now, Cobra, before you jump on me, I said that nicely but firmly, kwim?
I am sure you did. Even if you haven’t had that tone in years, he may still be hearing it, which might be his way of pushing off his anxiety onto you. OTOH, if you’re “friggin fuming on the inside,” he probably knows it.
But, Corri, reading that 4 inch thick binder in my basement clued me in real fast--this guy goes pretty deep. Why he won't let me see that side I don't know and don't care but it bothered me a lot that he wrote letters to me and put them in the binder instead of giving them to me cause he could not trust my reaction. I want to change that.
I think Dr. Laura does a good job of explaining all this. But since it is from the male’s POV and rebuts long held, false beliefs by women, it doesn’t seem to get much attention. Sort of like that blond Corri was talking to at that party.
Right now Corri is correctly saying, no more sauce BF. LOL. 