I know she makes some salient points. The big one about me allowing my guy to be the guy really resonated with me. There were a few things I just couldn't stomach doing... like donning slutty furry bedroom slippers and lying on the bed in an inviting position and begging him to ML to me. First of all, the image made me laugh. With my luck, my D12 would walk in the bedroom instead, take one look at all that fur and get completely grossed out. I'd NEVER hear the end of it. But my next image was the visual of Mr. Wonderful walking in to find me sprawled on the bed and saying quizzically, "Huh? Did I miss something? Didn't I tell you that I was heading over to Pep Boys with Jim? We're rebuilding his boat engine today! Why are you dressed like that? I like you better in jeans and tennis shoes?"
Then was the part where I had to "play dumb" all of the time... just to let my man have all the answers. Do you know how upset that made me?
HOWEVER... and I mean however in a big way... she made her point. I don't think I ever let Mr. Wonderful have any answer. I don't think I ever deferred to him on any big decision just because. I don't think I ever played into the concept of there being natural world order in masculine and feminine roles. Hell, I still struggle with it.
And once I finished crying after I read the book, I began to realize how lopsided our marriage truly had been. I also realized that even though it appeared as though I had all the control, the truth is that he never, ever took control. He ran away at the first sign of conflict and left me standing there and holding the bag. Then he blamed me for stealing it.
She now offers advice to both genders? Well, that's good. When I read the book, she only had books out there for women. The only rebuttal I can say is that control is an illusion. It's simply been a way for me to pretend I have control over all manner of external anxieties. And I see now how it manifested itself into one ugly, messy glob.
I'm pretty sure that Honey and I grew up in similar environments. I know my mom grew up during an era where she was discouraged from particular fields of study because of her gender. So when I was in school, she was really good about reminding me that there were gender biases but that I was smart enough to penetrate those barriers. I was studying to be a doctor. My sister went to the Naval Academy. We both got the message loud and clear. And we both struggle with our femininity today. (Corri, I really identified with your posts a few weeks ago.) I don't necessarily struggle with my identity as a woman--I'm a girly looking girl with plenty of curves and a nice smile. But I just happen to like the things that boys typically like to do. This might be because I grew up with a mom who loved sports... and my dad and brother love them as well... as do my male cousins.... and the fact that my neighborhood consisted of all boys and 3 girls. I dunno. I just learned from an early age that boys have more fun.
It's only been in the last few years that I've allowed myself to contemplate more feminine pursuits. I was always asked to play bunco in my old 'hood. I did it so I could mingle with chicks. But bunco is boring. It's a really poor substitute for poker! I'm not sure exactly where I fit in. I've got a totally athletic daughter, and it brings me utter joy to watch her kick ass on a volleyball court. (Okay, I've also got another daughter I call "Runs With Scissors") I'm hoping that all D12's girl cameraderie will pay off in her adulthood. She loves to paint her nails and wear cute outfits. But when the volleyball jersey and spandex shorts go on, she's all competitor. I wish I had been more like her...
So I'll begrudgingly give Laura some credit for forcing me to think about some things I had never been inclined to consider before. Because when I put some of her theories to test with Mr. Wonderful, they were dead on.
They still are.
Betsey
p.s. So I'll pray for miracles for those of us who need to continue to make progress in this area. Including BB.
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Re Underdog (((Betsey))) Ugh, Lou. Tell me you didn't pay the money? No, I didn't pay any money. You know guys like me and Mr W buy the generic mayonnaise, just kidding. No money, I just down loaded the free-bees.
I just couldn't stomach doing... like donning slutty furry bedroom slippers and lying on the bed in an inviting position and begging him to ML to me. I understand. Kind of not my style either.
just to let my man have all the answers. Do you know how upset that made me? I can imagine that would upset you from reading many of your posts about work and family life. I don't think many guys really want a partner like that. OTH, being a male, I don't like my partner to find fault with 75% of the things I propose or talk about.
I don't think I ever played into the concept of there being natural world order in masculine and feminine roles Well Betsey, i thought I knew the roles but I got it wrong too.
she made her point. I don't think I ever let Mr. Wonderful have any answer. That is sort of what I am dealing with now.
BB said she used to defer to me. The way I see things I listened to what BB wanted and if I wanted it too I got it or did it. Most of the things we have were her idea, but I actually did the research and the buying of what I though gave us the most bang for the buck. BB got what was handy or looked nice and rarely did much comparison shopping.
Fast forward, now everything we got was because I wanted it, I picked it out, I paid for it. BB never had much say????? because I made the final decision????
When BB started working, she replaced many things, good things, because she didn't make the final buying decision, she didn't like them because she didn't buy the things. To her, I was too controlling. <sheesh> I thought I was doing her and us a favor.
the truth is that he never, ever took control I am struggling with that too.
Control if I am right in BB's mind is fine but if something is a little off and she tends to split hairs and is picky, well, then I am the slightly self-centered control master.
I feel I am a push-over because so many things get picked apart and I really want BB to be happier so I don't stand up to her sometimes. I have been standing up to her more in the last couple of years.
If there was a rule book I could follow it but each couple writes their own rules.
Not having the best childhood, some not so good jobs, I learned that good enough is good enough. BB wants it better but isn't willing to stretch herself to make things happen which leaves it up to me or sometimes I don't get it done.
Do you think, Mr W, given his back ground, should have taken more control. It doesn't sound like with all of his family oddities I read about, he has a firm sense of what was his job and what was your job and who controlled which part.
I know for me, living 28 places during school, living with different relatives with many of their own kids, I don't know if I ever saw much more than people being nice and mostly getting by.
He ran away at the first sign of conflict and left me standing there and holding the bag (((Betsey))), I am sorry this happened to you. It sounds like you needed a person as strong and determined to match your inner strengths. Is it likely Mr W has that in him or could learn those traits.
Sometimes when people get together, the R seems simple but later they realise there is more to a R and family. Some people wonder if they are strong enough and some wonder if they were in over their heads.
I always thought that having, and extra work raising a child like your second D, makes it hard on couples no matter how much they love the child. You know about people questioning their own genetics, or did they do something wrong to cause a child to be born the way they were. You know guilt. Then there are things too numerous to mention.
Back to Mr W, did he date hi maintenance/highly accomplished girls. Did he have a high sense of ability in R's, socially, and in work? Some people do, some don't.
I never felt I should bite off more than I could chew when I dated a little, but I was supporting my mother at the time. I never went for the hi maintenance/ very capable girls because I didn't have the money, the social skills, or the time. I did all that I could though.
So I'll begrudgingly give Laura some credit for forcing me to think about some things I had never been inclined to consider before. Because when I put some of her theories to test with Mr. Wonderful, they were dead on.
I have her books too and "I" read them but that is as far as it went.
Be well Betsey. It is always a joy to read your posts.
Awww, Lou. (((((Lou))))) I'm hoping Corri will forgive us for hijacking.
Well, you pretty much pegged Mr. W. and his penchant for generics. But he does prefer Miracle Whip.
Quote: Well Betsey, i thought I knew the roles but I got it wrong too.
Lou, I think many of us got it wrong. I've forgiven myself for thinking my way was the only way. How about you?
Quote: When BB started working, she replaced many things, good things, because she didn't make the final buying decision, she didn't like them because she didn't buy the things. To her, I was too controlling. <sheesh> I thought I was doing her and us a favor.
Lou, I think we were both guilty of thinking that our way was for the betterment of all. Even if the flip side of this truth coin reveals that they abdicated power/control for whatever reason. I see now how that hurt my M. I won't be doing that next time around, though.
Well, I think if he had been here and reading all the posts by you men, he'd have grasped some alpha male knowledge. It would have been swell if he had told me that having control actively (rather than passive/aggressively) was important to him. Most of the time, he'd just answer my questions with "I don't care/It doesn't matter." Turns out he wasn't being truthful.
Quote: (((Betsey))), I am sorry this happened to you. It sounds like you needed a person as strong and determined to match your inner strengths. Is it likely Mr W has that in him or could learn those traits.
Sometimes when people get together, the R seems simple but later they realise there is more to a R and family. Some people wonder if they are strong enough and some wonder if they were in over their heads.
I always thought that having, and extra work raising a child like your second D, makes it hard on couples no matter how much they love the child. You know about people questioning their own genetics, or did they do something wrong to cause a child to be born the way they were. You know guilt. Then there are things too numerous to mention.
Thanks, Lou. I've often wondered what he felt about D9. We had the genetic tests done early on, and the defective gene was traced to me and my family. I wonder if deep down inside he blamed me? He's never said that or hinted at that, so I don't think it's true. I agree with your musings here, though.
Quote: Back to Mr W, did he date hi maintenance/highly accomplished girls. Did he have a high sense of ability in R's, socially, and in work? Some people do, some don't.
He had a varied mix of women before me. The GF/fiancee he had immediately before me was the complete opposite of me. She was a psychological mess... a broken bird who needed rescuing. The women before her were all very intelligent and accomplished engineers. His complete intellectual peers. I've been told by most (if not all) of his friends that I'm by far the most fun and interesting person he was ever with. He didn't have one friend who didn't like me--and way back when, he told me that it was the biggest turn on for him. The GFs before me all had issues with his friends and vice versa. He figured that counted a whole lot in the grand scheme. Most of his friends keep in touch with me now, too.
Quote: I have her books too and "I" read them but that is as far as it went.
Lou, I still use some of the practical knowledge I learned from that book. I used it tonight. I've been debating whether or not to take the girls back east for Thanksgiving (something we've done for 4 years now). For some odd reason, I'm having misgivings about doing that--even though I'd love to see my parents and friends, I just feel that I want to stay home.
I put in a call to Mr. W. last night and asked him if his dad was still planning on heading down from Bozeman to spend Thankgiving with him. He answered my question a little while ago, letting me know that he needs to call his dad to see if that's still the plan. He asked me why, so I told him that I was rethinking travel plans to DC (he had given me his blessing back in August when we discussed this, so he was a bit surprised). I got a little quiet and said, "It's been 4 years since you've seen the girls on Thanksgiving Day, and I'm feeling something tug at my heart about that." I could feel the heaviness in the air and he said quietly, "Wow. It's been that long?" It wasn't really a question but a very sad commentary. I said, "Yes. And I'm thinking that I'd like to give you and your Dad a chance to have them if I can." I don't think he knew what to think or say, Lou. He responded, "If that's what you decide to do, I'll cook and have you and the girls come over to join us, okay?" I told him, "Or I can cook too and have you guys over."
He just told me he'd let me know as soon as he talked to his dad. I'm seriously thinking of wrestling some control here... I'd like to cook, if only for one reason. I'd like the chance to do something for his dad... something his Mom accused me of not doing for her son/our family when we were still married. It seemed to really bug them that he did most of the cooking, and I'd like the chance to change a very old perception. I'll let you know how that pans out.
When we hung up, he seemed almost reluctant to say goodbye. We have our standard closing--something we've shared since the time we dated. We close all our convos with, "Ciao for now." and then we say bye. His "bye" was kind of emotional and squeaky. I'm feeling a little sad about pointing out the obvious to him. I know that he's been contemplating and reviewing lately, and this truth must hurt a whole lot. My D12 told me earlier this week that he's told her that he honestly regrets the damage he caused by his choices. I know he means it.
Be well too, Lou. You are a very dear man, and I've become most fond of you. Now, I must find my D9, who is stomping around the house in roller blades. She's scaring the dog witless.
Take care,
Betsey
p.s. Lou, I don't blame you for wanting a spouse who doesn't criticize you 75% of the time. I wouldn't either. And I got that from Laura too. I have learned to keep my mouth shut in that department. Except at work.
Last edited by Underdog; 10/20/0602:15 AM.
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
HP, after reading your remarks, I realize I never speak about my true beliefs either. Ill happily join in on conversations about religion and argue with fundamentalists and evolutionists alike, debating both sides just to be honery, but noone ever knows what I believe. weird.
I'm hoping Corri will forgive us for hijacking.
UD excuse me-- this is my thread. Corri doesnt have a say over who hijacks. and that was some good stuff.
Laura Doyle's ideas on inauthenticly kowtowing... submitting to the H, repulse me. The fake ditz, the calculating coquette...especially when they throw in that false subservience <barf>. It looks like you were able to take the good concept out of the trash. How can a woman respect a man when she 'acts' dumber then she is? If he cant see thru it, and appreciate her talents how can she feel loved, for herself? How can it be maintained if her demenor doesnt come from a place of respect and appreciation?
On your thread you and MTW were commenting and wondering about your choice of activities making you ... unacessable. I say NO WAY! I'll put in my change and say its not what you do. In fact you should do the things 'you love', to best find compatability. Not doing so is as bad as the women who come into diving, not because they want to try it, but because they're looking for a certain male demographic. I completely agree with putting yourself in a target rich environment, thats just smart, but do it with something you truly enjoy. Heck, thats why I took pysch classes when I was in school. So, be your best. Be you and do what you enjoy. If that means beating the guys at NTN, or poker so be it. It wont matter.
One of my first dates with x was a state fair. I love the basketball games. Im usually good at making baskets untill the carnies wont let me play anymore and then have my date carry around all those monster teddybears. I had done it just the day before, but that day with x.... I missed the first shot!!!<ohhhhh chagrin> she didnt.<ohhh humiliation> and she made me carry around the stuffed bear. she also wouldnt let me play again. man I was <grumble grumble> ticked off... but it was funny. I was able to do it in years after that, but it would just remind us of the first time.
at any rate, Its all about authenticity/congruence. Dont ever restrict, or otherwise hide your bright light under a basket. But when you find a guy you respect/love, their are lots of ways to show it and knock off some of the DAMN TESTING! lol That being said, I think women 'should' have a female support group as opposed to a male one. They need one, and commiserating with men in there time of need is just going to lead to confused feelings in one or both of them.
finally, the idea of allowing a guy to be a guy is interesting. FWIW, I comprehend you pain and needing Mr.W compassion during your grief over your youngest? D. I also see his remark as being... truthful... even though lacking compassion....kind of a deal with it, Im dealing with my pain, you deal with yours, kind of remark. In reality its not truthful in the sense that he probably was not indifferent, we just dont deal with and emote our feelings like you do. I did the same sort of thing with x right before her EA materialzied, and was one of the two points of contention and 'reasons' for her A. I know Corris XH did the same too, right before she decided she was dun. sort of a bucket tipper action.
Ive put some thought into this, and I dont see any resolution to it, especially in conjunction with my beliefs on what attraction is. Its gonna happen. We are guys, you are women. I do think this is one instance that clearly demonstrates the females need for a support group of other women, because we cant always be that, nor are equipped to be your girlfriend.
by the way, your thanksgiving dinner Idea is really really good, and your unniversary day interaction was precisely the sort of authentic open emotional expression a man appreciates.
Okay, Blackie, I'll recant my apology to Corri for the hijacking and apologize to you instead. You can't imagine how much I appreciate hearing your thoughts on all this stuff. You do know you can post on my thread too, right?
I've independently come up with the same conclusion that I'm not going to alter my interests or doings... but I do like your idea of a female support group. I'm making a more concerted effort to talking with more women in my travels. I've been enjoying one of the gals who is on the board of the volleyball club--we think alike and get along well. I also have the chick candle party this Thursday to anticipate as well.
That means I don't give up hockey... or obnoxious boy movie night (now featured this weekend)... or my fantasy football team.
I have a feeling that Honey, Corri and I could spend an entire weekend sharing commonalities every moment of the day. We all seem to share some overlapping issues. I find it interesting that the big ones center around the topic of femininity.
So I am very happy hearing you weigh in on Laura Doyle. I pretty much had the same reaction (the barfing). And yes, I also finished it with a sick feeling in my stomach because it seemed to hit some very big nerves. When I finally confronted my MC, he told me that he didn't want me to take too much specifically, but to look at it from a systemic POV. It took me a long while to get how my part of the "system" was grossly out of whack. And since I'm not a ditz (or a blonde ) or lacking an opinion, I couldn't imagine myself programming that way. Thanks for reassuring me.
Yeah, I'd have been the girl who challenged you to shooting those hoops. I'd have shot to win, but I'd have made sure that neither one of us were losers, no matter the outcome. All in good fun.
It's funny that you can peg the women who come into the scuba shop for ulterior motives. I do wonder why some women want to meet men so bad? I mean, to pretend to be something they're not? It's not so bad if they truly are interested in trying something different just because... but to put themselves in front of men? Well, hell. Why don't you encourage them to make a living doing it? Maybe join the Navy? Then they could scuba dive AND hang around men all day?
And since you mentioned it, I would like to dive some day. My sister and BIL are both divers and head to Cancun pretty much every year. She's dying for me and my D12 to certify. I'm not much of a good swimmer anymore, so we'll see what I can do.
I also understand why Mr. W. had the reaction he did when my D9 got her diagnosis. Doesn't mean I like it, but I do understand it. You know what I think would have been acceptable and perfectly fine? For him to have just hugged me and let me cry. I'd have felt comforted and he could have been my man. But he just offered me his contempt instead. Honestly, I look back and see 2 human beings who were scared to death, hurting and grieving. And I don't think either one of us had a good handle on ourselves, so we couldn't offer each other support. Our world was rocked and neither one of us knew how we were going to get through it all. But we did. Funny that.
Okay, so back to Laura Doyle. You know what irked me the most about her? She didn't even have any degree in psychology or social work and had never proven any of her theories scientifically. I felt she was a crackpot before I even opened the cover. But even those of us without any degrees to counsel make a point once in awhile. I give Laura hers.
So now I guess the right thing to do would be to offer you and Corri the chance to hijack my thread. Before it locks up.
Take care and have a great weekend. I do enjoy hearing your thoughts, Blackie. Don't go hiding under a rock anytime soon, okay? Now where the heck did Corri and Honey go?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Like millions of women, I wanted my marriage to be better. But when I tried to get my husband to be more romantic, helpful and ambitious, he withdrew-- and I was lonely and exhausted from controlling everything. Desperate to be in love with my man again, I decided to stop telling him what to do and how to do it.
So is Laura Doyle more about giving up control or more about inauthenticly kowtowing... submitting to the H, fake ditz, the calculating coquette? I looked at some things but didn't go very deep.
Blackfoot, good to see your input here. Underdog is one sharp cookie and has many things going for her.
You two keep it up. I am sure you two have some very interesting things to say. I see some matching abilitis for intellectual exchanges that might be good for both of you.
Can't speak for honey, but I was at a ballroom dance competition for most of the week. Just got back tonight.
Interesting stuff, UD. I checked out the Doyle woman... and while I agree with her in a gernal sort of way, I am SOOOOOOOOOOO against manipulation and capitulation that, to me, it hurts her credibility.
You really should give the girly-girl thing a whirl. It really isn't that bad... actually, it is quite empowering.
It's funny... I was interacting with a lot of people this week, and I was just stunned (don't know why) at the number of unhappy people out there in the world.... it's there, just lurking below the surface... just have to nudge it a bit, and it all comes spilling out. Most people are in an SSM in one form or another... I listen to stories that are often just slightly altered versions of the stories told here... and I'm not kidding you... most of it is centered on the WOMEN just not have a flippin' clue.
I met one woman... a very, very pretty blond, very smart, lots of letters behind her name... very accomplished woman... telling me about how wonderful her boyfriend is, etc., but how she was beginning to lose patience with him not asking her to marry him. Mind you, I just met this woman, I'm sitting in a group of three ladies, and I'm just listening, not saying a word.
She goes on and on about how wonderful, talented, beautiful she is, how she is very comfortable in her own skin, has things she wants to accomplish in her life (all about HER, kwis?)... then proceeds to drop these 'barbs' against men in general and against her boyfriend. She's decided she will not have children, she will adopt, she outlines how she keeps men 'in line' because they fear her wrath, so they don't mess with her... and mind you, she is saying all of this in a very cutesy, charming kind of way...
I'm listening to all of this, and it got to the point that I just couldn't help myself, I started laughing. I'm thinking... you are seriously wondering why this man is not asking to marry you? Really? Needless to say, I did not earn a friend there... but I didn't really care. The sheer venom being poored out towards men in general in that converation, and in others I had heard all week long... made me very sad. But it also made me more determined to keep me from ever doing it myself.
I met a few friends of the guy I am 'dating,' and one of his friends is one of the funniest people I've ever met. They constantly dig on one another, and he really is very funny. I think this is a form of 'man' testing, but I was given ample opportunity all week long to join in on this good natured ribbing the friend was doling out and heaping on my boyfriend... good natured put-downs, etc. But that whole 'convo with the blonde' kept popping into my head... things I've learned here and from my failed M... so I never once jumped in and put him down, even in jest... and I think the friend was almost doing it on purpose to me... I'd laugh at him... but I'd never jump in on the ribbing. That's a guy thing, and for me to join in and do it, too, felt, to me, very disrespectful, even if it was just 'joking.' As a matter of fact, every 'rib' or tease he'd throw out... I'd counter with a compliment. Genuine, not fake. It was AMAZING to see how these men, and the guy I am dating... reacted to that. And I thought to myself, well, by golly, I AM on to something here.
This, coming from a woman, who most of her life had more guy friends than girls. I can 'hang' with guys. I can banter and tease and joke with the best of them. But I didn't really realize, until recently, how I was never seen as a 'woman' by my guy friends, either. I was just being and learning to be 'one of the guys.' I think it really hurt me in regard to relationships.
I'm learning to be a woman around men now. That doesn't mean I'm any less smart, or that I 'let' him win, or that I don't joke, or I hide who I am in any way. I just don't compete. I don't put them down. If I run into a man that I don't really like, whose company I don't enjoy... I just leave his company as soon as I am able, in a polite manner. No need to tell him in a round about way how arrogant I think he is... or to 'outdo' him in some way just to show him I am in fact smarter than he is... (as i was very good at doing in the past)... I just don't need to do it... because I am happy being the woman I am.... I mean... I really LIKE being a woman... and it just stuns the hell out of me.
The blonde woman I met... and I met quite a few like her this week... she is a woman competing in a man's world, and using her looks, body, talent and intelligence in any way she can to maintain and gain advantage over men AND other women. I used to do it, too, so I don't want to come across as holier-than-thou... I just don't know WHY, or when or where or how... I learned that that was what I was supposed to do. That's manipulation. The blonde, or any woman, for that matter, doesn't have to hide her many physical and intellectual attributes or be ashamed of them... but a girl like the women I met this week, a woman I used to be... is what I think is giving the female gender a bad name.... and causing countless problems for relationships of all types. The saddest part of it all is that, she -- like myself at one time, has no earthly idea what she's doing, let alone how to change it... she just continues to b!tch and complain, and be unhappy.
I think Blackie is spot on... it's an amazing thing when a woman allows a man to treat her like a woman...when she stops competing.... when a woman treats a man like a man. It's pretty flipping cool, actually.
Quote: In reality its not truthful in the sense that he probably was not indifferent, we just dont deal with and emote our feelings like you do. I did the same sort of thing with x right before her EA materialzied, and was one of the two points of contention and 'reasons' for her A. I know Corris XH did the same too, right before she decided she was dun. sort of a bucket tipper action.
I don't know about these statements you've made here. Just talking outloud, really... I hear what you are saying... but in the instances you are discussing, there were unresolved problems and tension present in the Rs... and NOT talking and communicating only made each situation worse. I consider 'emoting' feeling a form of communicating. Not the only form... but its presence or its absence can change 'meaning' dramatically.
I think in each instance you described... the woman did not feel safe, she felt emotionally threatened... and when we feel this way... we get emotional... irratic... overly clingy, then overly distant... irrational. We need 'to talk.' When we stop wanting 'to talk,' you'd better KNOW you've got a serious problem on your hands.
Anyway, I'm not so sure that it is a matter of a woman needing to share her feelings with the man all the time, or to have him be her girlfriend... I think it is more of an intuitive understanding of the woman that something is wrong, and having no idea what the problem IS or how to fix it.
And you know as well as I do... that when you are with someone whose company you enjoy... you talk. You 'emote feeling.' Maybe not 24/7... and quite honestly, in happy, well-balanced Rs, I don't think women in general need to always 'emote feeling' with their man. Yes, women need their girlfriends...
But. There are times when the man just has to get over himself and emote feeling with his W, and being 'a man'(and saying you just aren't wired like a woman) isn't a flipping excuse. It's not a matter of being a man or a woman. It's a matter of human empathy and compassion, and basic respect for your fellow being... it goes beyond wife and husband.
In each instance you described... I think, personally, they all went beyond the whole m/f thing.... but the man was instisting on keeping it a m/f thing so he just didn't have to 'deal.' So he could hide. No criticsm... I've done the same or worse myself.
And just like we girls have to learn how to be women... the boys have to learn how to be men.... and sometimes... in order for a boy to become a man, he has to get over himself and 'emote feeling.'
I RARELY Look at any forum outside of the SSM. When I saw you post to HP that time, I went and read thru a couple of your thread to find out ...how come she is so smart/and why is she here.. I was under the impression then you had instigated the D but regretted it, and I was hopeful for you but its so hard from that angle... I was mistaken, and think your sitch has even more potential for hopefulness. I quit posting here intentionally once,(hid under a rock) the rest of the time its simply time that prevents me. I am back to my old self, actually I went to far back for a while, but Im back now... so nothing here will affect my state anymore.
I stick around, despite the fact that I would have erased x from my daily/weekly/monthly thoughts long ago if I wasnt here. I've noticed the more I post here, the more LD I am. That actually is a beneficial thing. I think looking at and talking about the mating dance so much, just quenches any desire to actually take part in it. Its like being in a class working on a cadaver, or looking at rotten.com to long, I start to see people as a collection of parts instead the whole unit.
If Im too busy to post for more then a week or so... Hey baby How YOU doin..<eyebrow waggle>
So any trip outside SSM is usually because some lurker makes a comment and then Ill go look at a thread. The folks on the SSM board have captive and commited partners in the R's, and my main focus is on assisting guys with seeing that female desire is not such a will-o-wisp. any guy in a dysfunctional R is gonna be sex starved...so I imagine many on the BB lurk here. I cant even begin to describe how much I have learned, and learned about myself, from being here because of other posters sharing.
I was reading thru Mel's thread tonight, and saw a few comments by your friend MTW. She seems to be sliding into a slightly... bitter and ridgid place. She really knows her pysch, she has so much good advise for others, and how to stay in control by using it, but I believe like corri mentioned that women are empowered by using there feminine attributes, as opposed to trying to don a cloak of masculine power. I dont know how to approach it. Maybe you do?
In my recent female associations, I encounter what Corri commented on, repeatedly. Because of my experience and knowledge, I have little trouble bypassing the testing of these smart, 'successful' women. When I say passing the testing, I mean they are very quickly infatuated. Ignoring the fact that this infatuation shows a lack of boundaries, and trying to appreciate it for what it is, it still becomes apparent in social situations that these women try to implement and use the male attributes they find attractive on me (umm Im not gay, its not gonna work, I dont care how pretty you are) and others. Like corri was saying, I can tell just from the way they talk and interact, they dont get it. I can tell the diminished testing towards me is a reaction. Im looking for awareness. The lack of it is why I quit with x and it wiped me out focusing on the negative, so that I was able to stifle my inclination to fix it by using romantic attraction. No more white knight behavior.(yeah right)
anyways, Its really rampant. While the bashing of masculinity is pretty overt and public, I think the derision and elimination of femininity is even more pervasive, and unacknowledged to the detriment of women. I think it affects them detrimentally physically.
And since I'm not a ditz (or a blonde ) or lacking an opinion, I couldn't imagine myself programming that way. Thanks for reassuring me.
Hey HP is a blonde, and she isnt lacking an opinion. LOL. Some people are 'blonde on the inside'. Old joke, Robin givens> OMG! I just dont understand why my H,(mike tyson) is sooo violent. Like, I dont understand why he hits me, I know he Loves me!
that you can peg the women who come into the scuba shop for ulterior motives What surprises me is my acquaintences and friends who cant tell. The majority are there for there own reasons, those that are there for both... I think thats great and smart. Its proactive and thats attractive and admirable. For whatever reason Im pretty sensitive to incongruence. I remember the time and place when x became attracted to OM, what he did to initiate it, and her shifting personality and confusions, over the next few months.
Dont worry about your swimming skills. Its not an issue. Just go to cancun (or wherever) and do it.
I also understand why Mr. W. had the reaction he did when my D9 got her diagnosis. Doesn't mean I like it, but I do understand it. You know what I think would have been acceptable and perfectly fine? For him to have just hugged me and let me cry. I'd have felt comforted and he could have been my man.
Completely agreed. Im gonna dicuss this more in my reply to Corri. She brought up some good stuff.
Honestly, I look back and see 2 human beings who were scared to death, hurting and grieving. And I don't think either one of us had a good handle on ourselves, so we couldn't offer each other support
exactly. is it unattractive, demoralizing, dreamshattering. Yes. does it make the op a 'bad person' or valueless. No. In a situation like your case, and in the case of death of a child, its no wonder that the majority lead to seperation or D. Both parties are simply incapable of providing the necessary emotional support and are reminders of the pain. they are understandably too self involved with own pain and loss. I apologize for dredging this, but how old was your youngest D when this happened?
Betsey
and that was some good stuff. 
