We still seem to be in a mixed signal situation. Saturday was great. Sunday was good. Monday and Tuesday everything seemed good but the physical part. So we're on a downturn here again although slight.
I think I might have this figured out though.
Friday I was off doing my thing. I was gone building the Haunted house. I was with a group of people she is not well connected with and in my position she knows that the women tend to hit on me quite a bit. When she called to see how I was doing I was in good spirits (she expected me to be frustrated) and I made no comments about coming home. She said a little inquisitively "Ok I guess I'll see you when I see you then" and I just said Ya.
The next day was when things got actually a little hot.
Now then Monday the feminist statements began. She makes these bra burning 70's feminist statements that I know are the ideals of the evil C. They are not my wife but somehow she's accepted those ideas as truth.
For example yesterday we saw a female friend with her very young daughter dresses up for a bride for Halloween. W says to me "Oh she's already training her". I ask for an explanation and I get "Well what would the mother be without being married". Now it is true that this particular womans biggest goals were to get married and have children. But W says this in a derogatory manner. Unfortunately I have not been quick enough on my toes with a come back. But I think that is going to change.
The other comment was about Jane Fonda and how she prized her feminist attitude and was a strong woman (albeit freaky and a traitor) but then blew it all by getting breast implants. I said "Huh?" how in the world does getting breast implants make a woman not a strong woman. The response was something about pandering to men and their wishes. I did speak up on this one. I said that one could percieve that as playing on a woman's strengths. That one doesn't have to have large breasts to be a strong woman but havng them certainly doesn't make her a weak one. (Was thinking of you BJ )
The discussion didn't go far, there was a definite difference of opinion there and it didn't seem to be up for discussion.
So I think that what happens is she starts to feel close to me (maybe a little concerned she's going to lose me) and she starts chasing me. Saturday she followed me around and complimented me all day. Constantly told me how smart I was and how the haunted house would have failed without my pulling it together. Then she runs up against this strong woman belief that is a corruption of her true beliefs. And we get a downturn. I then get "less strong" and we're in a negative spiral again.
It's subtle but I think it's there.
So this is my theory.
I'm trying to break it by staying strong when the pattern begins.
I'm not sure if this idea has to be broken apart or if me just DB'ing harder is the solution. I've considered an e-mail since the conversation always gets shut down.
But today we are both really tired so it's not the day for it. But soon.
I don't want to make my move when we're in the downturn but will definetely be ready for it when we swing back up.
Ha, She walked up while I was writing that last post and looked at the screen to see what I was doing. I just kept typing.
Then I stopped cause I could tell she wanted to hang out.
So I just realized that I just passed the one year of Db'ing mark. Wow. I remember that first night on this site trying to figure out what it was all about.
I also remember that my therapist at the time told me to expect about a year til things got good. Guess it's time.
Hey Xue, Here's my "expert" opinion (exert as a woman that is).
YOur wife is developing her identity. She is taking bits and pieces of ideas from people she admires and/or respects and making them her own. Your wife may be a little immature, and that is why she is still seeking her identity, but she is not being brain-washed. You may not like her feminist bent, but the fact is, she does like it, she tends towards it and she seems to be making it part of the fabric of her life. Xue, you may disagree with her new found outlook, but you love her and this is part of her now.
I have to say that making assumptions about who a woman is based on what a woman chooses to do with her life, her body or her family, is very naive. I mean, breast implants--who cares! What about a tattoo or body piercing...what's the differnce? People do what they do to empower themselves in their own way and I don't think they should be judged. It's possible that your wife is harboring some resentments about motherhood, or traditional roles which, unfortunately, narrow her vision. When we have insecurities within us, we tend to put down people or characteristics which somehow feel threatening.
Don't get me wrong, I am a feminist. To me, this means women should be treated with the same respect as men, should be paid equally for the same job and should be given the same opportunities. I'm also a mother and loved being a wife. I think it is important to recognize and embrace the fact that men and women have many differences--physically and emotioanlly. To deny that is to deny a part of us.
A woman can be strong and influential and wonderful with or without conforming to social norms--They can have tons of plastic surgery if they want and it makes no difference. Women get implants for a lot of reasons by the way--not just to look like a porn star (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Anyway, Xue, the point of writing you is that I think it would be naive of you and a disservice to your wife, to assume that her ideals are a passing phase or just the bad influence of someone else. Also, if she feels you do not take her seriously, she may grow to resent you. I think it is okay to disagree without invalidating her feelings.
Here's hoping you get some soon buddy, It's like watching a Slooowwwwwwww chess game.
Best, Althea (H filed today--Nov 1st--and I'm A-okay with it)
Hey MMO, I like your insight on this whole discussion. I'm not real big on the just throwing all standards out the window, but I do see the point and logic behind your view on this. Sorry to hear about your H's decision, but I'm sure you've done your best and he still has his choices to make. Hopefully Xue and I will have a lot to think about with this posting. I'm glad you put it out there for us.
First, very sorry to hear your H files. You've had a long road and you've done well. It's an amazing path isn't it, no matter the outcome. I wish you well and hope some good will come of it although I'm sure much already has.
So good point. I may be invalidating just a bit. Definetely something I should think about and I will.
Quote: Don't get me wrong, I am a feminist. To me, this means women should be treated with the same respect as men, should be paid equally for the same job and should be given the same opportunities.
If this is the definition then I guess I'm a feminist too.
I guess I should clarify. I use a blanket term. I know what I mean in my own head but it probably doesn't come out that way. My wife and I don't really have any gender based roles in our relationship. I do all of the cooking and she does the dishes. I sometimes help with the dishes but she usually prefers I don't. We just do what works best and we have complimentary skills and likes. I love to cook and hate doing dishes. This sort of thing is the norm in the R. We are in business together and for the most part our decisions are talked out between us. Occassionally I am the final say on a subject but other times she gets veto power. It is most definetely an equal relationship when it comes to most things. There are times I need to be the boss but those are generally times that she just doesn't know what to do.
I look at the way our society has evolved and I see that we had a definite need for the feminist movement of the 70's. Things were out of balance and that movement had to take things out of balance in the opposite direction so that they could eventually settle in to a balancing point. It was a necessary upheaval and by definition had to go overboard to achieve it's goals. Nothing wrong with that it is a normal occurence for any system and society is certainly a system.
When I use the term I am reffering to those women still stuck in the overboard 70's upheaval. Those that believe that marriage itself is an evil. That society itself is completely wrong. That men must be controlled or they will put women back down. I am speaking of a radical in non radical times.
Quote: It's possible that your wife is harboring some resentments about motherhood, or traditional roles which, unfortunately, narrow her vision.
Nailed it dead on.
When we got married we made a plan. At 5 years of marriage we were going to sit down and negotiate, bring things to the table. The big thing on the table would be children. When I first proposed I really didn't want them but I hadn't thought it out much. She didn't want them. But as I fell deeper and deeper in love with her I realized that I did want them. We talked about this before marriage but we were in LALA land. Both thinking it would work itself out.
Now my wife harboured some deep set fears about children. Really freaked her out. Her extreme fear of death contributed to this (Why would I bring anything into this world that would eventually die) as did her own issues of thinking she would not be a good mother. It seriously freaked her out.
So our talk was to happen September 2004. We both know the talk is coming and the tension begins to build. We had had some very traumatic years and the timing was very bad. July 2004 she casually asks if I'd consider adopting. Not thinking much about it I say no. Later on I figured out she was putting feelers out. August 2004 I get "You know I'd give you a divorce if you wanted to find someone to have children with"
What!!! This was totally out of the blue
And a few weeks later the bomb. BAm!!!
So my problem is that I know that these things are not part of my wifes ideals and personality. Strong woman yes. Anti family, anti marriage, hell no. She has latched onto these things because of her extreme fear of having children.
And of course all the pressure a newly married couple gets didn't help.
The really funny thing is that lately she's had a real attraction to babies. This was not her until recently. She wouldn't touch them. Now it's just the opposite. She loves them and is always talking about how cute so and so is.
I think there is some serious internal conflict going on.
This would alos be evidenced by her physical ailments lately. Namely eczema. We're both big Carolyn Myss fans and according to Carolyn Myss eczema can be tied to the emotional need to settle down and start a family. Of course I've kept this to myself.
You definitely have some great pounts Althea. And I thank you. But there is more going on here than is obvious. You of course have made me think even more about it and it is certainly helpful
Although your post riled me up at first I thought about it all night. I'm a bit tired but possibly more enlightened. I can deal with the tired.
Yes your right. Although I don't think the ideals being presented by my wife are truly the ones she'll stick with. At the moment they are hers. Your also right in the fact that I do love her. And that I need to accept her as she is. In most cases I do but this thing has been a real sore spot.
Michelle's e-mail the other day hit home. The article "A word of caution about therapy". I don't know if you read it but the gist of it was that therapists cannot help but bring their own ideals into the session. The therapist we went to announced her divorce the same week we started with her. She was definitely justifying her own decisions in her "helping my wife". There was never anything remotely resembling marriage counseling. After each session I was in worse shape than the last. I walked out of those sessions an absolute wreck whether it was an individual session or a joint session. I could see the path she was leading us down and I did everything I could to divert it. I was absolutely traumatized by those sessions. I could hardly drive home from most of them. I did not learn until much later that therapy should not be like that.
As a matter of fact at my first individual session with her she worked me up into a frenzy and then closed the session after 15 minutes. Said I was so wonderful I had already worked through what needed to be done in a session. The session had consisted of her repeatedly saying things like "What's the point of trying to save your marriage, she could die in a car crash tommorrow and what would the point have been. Nothing is permanent. Why would you even try. How would things be without her"
So my point is that I'm quite certain I take immediate offense to anything that sounds like her. I can tell when my wife is qouting her and it gets to me in a really bad way. So I probably get a bit juvenile in my response.
As a matter of fact I cannot seem to bring myself to even think of any type of validating statement in regards to her. Everything that comes into my mind turns into a hateful thing. This could certainly be a strong factor in what's holding us back. Pretty damn scarred I guess.
My wife and I listen to conservative talk radio. The T is very hippie liberal (yes that's a hateful term). She's long 70's style dresses which hide her figure. Long graying hair that once was black. She could probably be very pretty but she makes herself look old and not so pretty. When there is something on the radio criticizing the liberals we both say "Damn hippie liberals". I say it quite hatefully and we both know who it is directed at when we do.
Perhaps I need to work on forgiveness. That will be a really really hard one for me. I hate that woman.
Oh dear Xue--did I get your panties in a rumple? Sorry darlin' I didn't mean it.
The T sounds horrid, really. In fact, it reminds me a lot of my own T sessions with H when all this started. It was NOT helpful at all and likely contribuited to the further demise of my mariage. I also stopped seeing therapy because it made me feel wose and hopeless.
Here's the thing though, why do you think it is not her? Obviously you know her well, but people change. She is not the same woman she used to be, no more than you are the same man and while I agree, that kind of zealotry is highly irksome, it is part of her transformation and will affect he future thought processes, regardless of whether she continues to maintain he rigid feminist ideas.
BTW, I totally concur with your interpretation of people stuck in the 70's--they need a cause, poor dears, don't they realize there are plenty of contemporay issues that need their attention?
Xue, you are into experimentation right? So, here's what I suggest...do the opposite! yep, you heard me..the old George Costanza. Stop arguing with her and start agreeing with her. In fact, when she tells you that Jane Fonda went and ruined her credibility by getting inplants, kick it up a notch by saying something like: "Yeah, before you know it she'll be selling Pamela Anderson's new hair gel."
Why don't you initiate some conversations while in the grocery store looking at the latest Cosmo cover-"can you believe the way the way society makes women feel they have to starve themselves to be accepted?"
Here's the theory, if you W is only trying these ideals on, like a hat, to see if she likes it or not, she will begin to see how unattractive that hat looks when it is worn by someone else.
It may seem insincere (well, it is!) but the idea is that you do not give her anything to defend against. That kind of zealotry needs an opposing wall to thrive on, so don't provide it with argument.
Sorry of this has tormented you Xue--I'm still placing my bets on your pony though baby--go get 'er!
Your a genius Althea. I know that's the answer. I've just had a hell of a time figuring out how to make it come out of my mouth. I'm the worst damn liar there ever was. If something is in any way in opposition to what I really think it just won't come out.
My wife just laughs at me if I try to fib in any way at all.
But I'll figure it out.
Today was a wierd day. I was really on a downer all day. Self realization is hard. My wife sensed it and asked. I stayed tight lipped. I don't do that much anymore but did today. For some reason it was just to much today. Don't know what it was. I pull it off pretty good most days.
So she tried to be extra cheerful all day and take care of me.
I went for a jog in the middle of the day to clear my mind. It helped.
We were both a bit off. Finally tonight she asked me to take her to dinner. She wanted to play hooky from work and go to dinner (we played hooky last night and went to the movies)
So we had a nice dinner. Her fortune read "Love is the answer to the question you ask". She read it to me and I said "That's the truth" She nodded and set it down. She slipped it into her purse when she thought I wasn't looking.
Just something wierd today. But definetely connected. Very connected.
