I got to thinking about boundaries and their proper application and would like to pose a question to the board. I realize that having poor boundary control could probably sum up my entire situation, so I would like to improve it in small steps. I think developing my skills in one area, even if rather small and minor (compared to the majority of issues discussed on this board) will help me in all areas. One area in which I need to improve is relations with the ILs, specifically MIL.
Two recent incidents come to mind in which good boundaries would be helpful. We (me, my W, my kids, MIL and FIL) were preparing to go somewhere, and MIL commented to me on how it was a bit chilly and then asked if I thought that the kids should be changed from their skirts into long pants. I responded by saying I didn't think that necessary. MIL then walked into the other room where W was and proceeded to try to convince her that it was too chilly for skirts and thus the kids needed to be changed into long pants. Although this is a minor incident, I felt it indicative of a lack of proper boundaries concerning MIL's relationship with me and the kids. Another incident occurred in which MIL was dicussing house remodeling with the W within obvious earshot of me, trying to convince her of some remodeling that she already knew I didn't approve of. I saw it as another minor, but clear violation of boundaries. Am I wrong in my perceptions of these events? I realize that these sorts of thing are probably just par for the course with in-laws, but I really do want to try to establish a proper relationship with them as a way of practicing my skill at boundaries.
What I need is a way of expressing a clear boundary to my MIL without creating the mess that can easily happen with ILs. It is true that MIL helps out a lot with babysitting, so I am sure she just naturally feels like she has a say in how they are raised. And the house my W and I are purchasing and remodeling was the house that MIL grew up in, so I want to be sensitive to the fact that she has feelings attached to it. How can I phrase a boundary that will be clear to MIL yet not insensitive? I have spoken to my C extensively about the IL issue and he feels that there is an unhealthy level of enmeshment between W and MIL that will disrupt our chances at building intimacy. He feels that the best way to bring it back down to a healthy level (parent as an "adult friend") is to tackle many small issues rather than the entire issue head on. That way, over time MIL and W would gradually become comfortable with the notion of becoming less enmeshed rather than risking a "blow up" and subsequent retreat behind walls.
I hope this is making sense. Really tired today, not much sleep for the last few weeks. Thanks in advance for any help offered.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Keep in mind that boundaries are not something you 'do' to someone else. They are what you place on yourself.
While these two incidents are certainly annoying... I see no boundary that she has violated. In the first instance... you cannot control what she does... you expressed your opinion. Period. End of story.
In the second incident... the boundary is what you are willing or not willing to do in terms of remodeling. Her comments don't change that.
Your annoyance at her behavior CAN change. You have complete control over that. Or not. You can be annoyed.
The only time when I would see a boundary being violated is if your MIL hired a redecorating crew, had them show up to your house, begin construction, etc., without first discussing it with you. Even then, you still have control over the situation.
If you don't like how your MIL is treating you, then YOU can decide not to be around HER. That is a boundary. To expect her to change HER behavior to suit your preference(s) is a control issue.
Quote: Keep in mind that boundaries are not something you 'do' to someone else. They are what you place on yourself.
I think I've got that.
Quote: In the first instance... you cannot control what she does... you expressed your opinion. Period. End of story.
OK. Let me shoot this hypothetical then and see if I have it right. If she had convinced my W to change the kids clothes, would the boundary would be what I choose to do in response that that situation? And how would the boundary by "phrased?" Would "I will not allow my MIL to interfere with the raising of my children in the way that I and my W see fit" be a boundary, or an attempt at control? If it is the latter, how can I rephrase the statement to be a boundary?
Quote: In the second incident... the boundary is what you are willing or not willing to do in terms of remodeling. Her comments don't change that.
That makes sense, but let me take it a bit farther. Let us say that MIL was able to convince W to do some remodeling that I had already stated a preference not to do. I realize now the boundary has shifted to include my W, as she has every right to make decisions about the remodeling on equal footing with me. But wouldn't it be more proactive to try to establish a more general "boundary" that MIL should not attempt to get between my W and I on issues that should only involve the two of us. Or would that not be a boundary but be control instead? I guess I see MIL as exerting undue control already over my W. Can I do anything about that, or should I just set firm boundaries on my own responses and let come what may?
Quote: If you don't like how your MIL is treating you, then YOU can decide not to be around HER.
What if I don't like how my MIL is treating my M? In other words I don't feel like she is respecting that my W and I should put each other first before any others. Or is that a boundary issue with my W? Or maybe a control issue?
Quote: To expect her to change HER behavior to suit your preference(s) is a control issue.
Just making sure I got this. So if someone is treating you in a negative way, expecting them to change their behavior, or taking action with the intent of causing them to change their behavior is a control issue? So then my recourse is to clearly state to MIL and W when negative actions occur that I am unhappy about it and let them decide how to respond?
Thanks Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I disagree with your perspective on this. I believe there is a major boundary violation going on here, but not by Chrome, rather by his wife. To explain my view, let’s put the shoe on the other foot. Say that Chrome’s mother is coming over often and commenting to his W on her cooking, that she needs to feed the kids better, cook more variety, whatever. Now say W just ignores her, so MIL goes to Chrome to press her case. Then suppose that Chrome sympathizes with his mother (because he really wants his wife to cook better but is afraid to say so).
It is not hard to imagine the resentment that will build up in his wife in a fairly short period of time. What W will feel is that Chrome and his mother are “ganging up” on her and neither appreciates or respects her abilities as a cook. W can easily extrapolate this to mean she is not appreciated in other areas too. A counselor would jump all over Chrome, telling him to support his W and to tell his mother to back off and stop meddling. There is a sense of loyalty and betrayal involved here and Chrome would be violating that with his W. His allegiance would be to his mother and his W would sense that.
The exact same thing is happening here. Chrome’s W is choosing her mother over Chrome, undermining his authority, his wishes as a husband and father, and allowing her mother to drive a wedge between them. It is a passive aggressive act on her part, letting her mother do the “dirty” work instead of confronting Chrome herself about an issue she may have. This is a good example of where Dr. Laura’s advice can be spot on.
BTW, what happened to this board? It’s like it is dying a slow death….
I'm with you on this one, chrom. sorry corri, could't disagree more.
this is classic meddling MIL behavior. Its manipulative, to say the least. If she doesn't get what she wants out of him, she does an end-run around him. This is getting inbetween the couple, and trying to pry them apart like a crowbar. It puts undue pressure on poor W, too, as now she has to try and appease both parties. I don't care what you want to call it..."control issue" or other. Its not acceptable. You shouldn't have to put up with it in your own house...ahh, but its NOT your house, now, is it? nope..its HER house. always will be, until she either dies, or a complete stranger's name is on the deed. I know, we've dealt with this in our family, too. well..."observed" it, anyway. LOL! MIL's house could have been ours; I am SO glad we opted out. BIL bought it, didn't keep it too long, then sold it to a cousin...but the ILs still think of it as their house, and it annoys the crap out of cuz. Luckily, its not too big of a deal, as IL's live 1000+ miles away. But anyway...yeah, selling property to family is one of those big no-no's...like discussing politics and religion. just say NO!
Quote: It is not hard to imagine the resentment that will build up in his wife in a fairly short period of time. What W will feel is that Chrome and his mother are “ganging up” on her and neither appreciates or respects her abilities as a cook. W can easily extrapolate this to mean she is not appreciated in other areas too. A counselor would jump all over Chrome, telling him to support his W and to tell his mother to back off and stop meddling. There is a sense of loyalty and betrayal involved here and Chrome would be violating that with his W. His allegiance would be to his mother and his W would sense that.
The exact same thing is happening here. Chrome’s W is choosing her mother over Chrome, undermining his authority, his wishes as a husband and father, and allowing her mother to drive a wedge between them. It is a passive aggressive act on her part, letting her mother do the “dirty” work instead of confronting Chrome herself about an issue she may have. This is a good example of where Dr. Laura’s advice can be spot on.
yep. you said it better than I. And I've experienced this sort of thing first hand...one such incident of "ganging up" triggered the biggest fight we've ever had...this was after staying in my house for 3 weeks. They have a long history of "visiting" for half the summer. they've stayed for up to 6 weeks...I put up with it for a long time, but no more. those days are over. But that was the typical scenario...after a couple of weeks, they own the place, and then its "gang up on chuck" time. Well, a few years back, Chucky grew a pair, and well...I won't bore you with the rest.
Quote:
BTW, what happened to this board? It’s like it is dying a slow death….
seems slow to me, too. everybody must be gettin' some.
Quote: What I need is a way of expressing a clear boundary to my MIL without creating the mess that can easily happen with ILs.
1. How combative is your MIL?
2. You do realize that you have absolutely no control on how your in-laws will respond?
I have a hard time with #2 personally. I couch my verbal communication in southernese and twist myself up in knots trying to find the best way to address something when my conflict-avoidance issues are screaming at me.
My point is - it's probably going to hurt. Once you accept that as a very distinct possibility, you might be able to push past your tendency to CA and follow through.
Notice your MIL went to your wife both of these times knowing that you could overhear her.
So, stop pretending you don't hear her.
Quote: MIL then walked into the other room where W was and proceeded to try to convince her that it was too chilly for skirts and thus the kids needed to be changed into long pants.
Step into the room, and say, "MIL, I appreciate your concern for the kids, but as I said earlier, I don't think the temperature warrants changing their clothes."
Then step back out to whatever you were doing in the other room.
Quote: Another incident occurred in which MIL was dicussing house remodeling with the W within obvious earshot of me, trying to convince her of some remodeling that she already knew I didn't approve of.
I assume that you and your wife had already discussed the renovation and had agreed that you weren't going to do it. Based on that assumption, "MIL, wife and I discussed this and have chosen not to do X."
If you and your wife have not come to an agreed upon solution, then it's, "MIL, wife and I are still discussing X and have not come to a decision yet."
Cac, Cobra, and Corri ... (hmmm with Chrome that makes 4 C's)
We may be fleets crossing in the dark here. I think Corri's main point was how to treat the situation from BOUNDARY perspective. I don't want to speak for her, but she might agree with you both about the fact that this is an unhealthy amount of control by MIL (heck, the professional C agrees with that POV). The question is what do I do about it? How do I respond? Should I respond to control by being controlling myself? Is being controlling ever the right thing to do? I think these are important questions, and I think ILs are a fertile ground for such discussion.
Cac,
Well, not only is it MIL's former homestead, she and FIL currently live right across the road. When I mentioned this plan to my C, I almost got him to emit an excited utterance (of the form "are you nuts?!?). When I told him that I view this as a way of practicing my boundary control, he responded by saying "you like to put the treadmill next to your bed don't you?"
I am going into this with both eyes wide open. Financially this will put my family in a very good place as we are getting a good "family deal" on it. However, if after a set period of time it is clear that our M and family is suffering unduly because of the IL proximity, I will sell the house and move my family, and we will still have benefitted financially from the time we were there. I have made my intentions perfectly clear to my W.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: If she had convinced my W to change the kids clothes, would the boundary would be what I choose to do in response that that situation?
Yes.... based upon whatever your boundary, in fact, is.
Quote: I guess I see MIL as exerting undue control already over my W. Can I do anything about that, or should I just set firm boundaries on my own responses and let come what may?
Clearly, remodeling is not the issue. The issue is, you feeled ganged up on. Whatever the issue is. Doesn't matter.
Know yourself. Know your preferences, but know that preferences allow for wiggle-room, negotiation. Boundaries are NON-NEGOTIABLE. There is no discussion because it is a matter of YOUR integrity, respect for your self.
Quote: I guess I see MIL as exerting undue control already over my W. Can I do anything about that, or should I just set firm boundaries on my own responses and let come what may?
Is it something you don't like, or something you see as unacceptable? If it is unacceptable, what are you doing about it?
Quote: So if someone is treating you in a negative way, expecting them to change their behavior, or taking action with the intent of causing them to change their behavior is a control issue?
Yes. You can certainly bring your concern to their attention and state your preferences... ask for understanding... but if they decline and continue in the same manner, action is now incumbent upon YOU... if your action is to get them to change... you've got yourself a control issue.
Quote: So then my recourse is to clearly state to MIL and W when negative actions occur that I am unhappy about it and let them decide how to respond?
Yes. They may not respect you, may not be acting like it... but neither are you trusting and respecting them by anticipating their actions/responses and avoiding potential conflict.
I also think it is a boundary violation. If she wasn't in your home and in a neutral place, then yeah, it gets blurry but she's in your home and so that changes everything, imo.
However, I think you could probably defuse the whole thing with a little humor. Say what you gotta say but in a humorous way. This allows her to save face and doesn't put your wife in an uncomfortable position but it also gets your message across loud and clear. Something like "Do you have potatoes growing in your ears?! I just said they are fine.." and move on.
The downside of handling it this way is that it may take longer for her to realize that you are setting a boundary with her, than it would if you used brutally direct language. However, it avoids the "what's up chrome's ass?" convo that she would no doubt have with your wife, later on.
I doubt she means to meddle, it's just that a pattern was set early in in your R (by yourself and your wife) and it happens to be one MIL likes because it affords her a position of prominence in your lives.
Well, that's my two cents..use humor to get your point across without causing a major blowup. But you know..to correctly pull this off you will have to have a smidge of aggressiveness in your voice; it can't be all laughs and giggles. I'm sure you kwim.
Good luck. Btw, I have MIL issues too and it is verrrrry tricky to navigate these waters. I'm probably not qualified to dole out advice but, then again, who is on these boards, LOL.
always will be, until she either dies, or a complete stranger's name is on the deed.