I'd swear you were describing my R with my W while she was seeing OM.
Joint Marriage Counseling did help us, but the main help was W started seeing a very good individual counselor. Don't worry about what direction counseling will take W, the important thing is that she gets help. "Professional" help will help W feel better about herself, which will allow her to feel better about her R with you.
I got to a point where I could not help W anymore. what I did to help just made W feel all the more 'unworthy' of me. That didn't mean I stopped helping, but did make it more critical that W seek outside assistance. It will be better for you that she get 'professional' assistance, instead of relying on OM assistance, which is all she has now.
Start calling marriage counselors today. I went to an AGAPE counselling center, which also had individual counselors. Our MC recommended W start seeing an individual C that was also at the center, which was probably the best thing that happened out of our MC.
So what do you do when your spouse ostensibly calls it off with the OP, but nevertheless continues to occasionally talk to them?
Right now, my wife has seemingly made a decision to break from the OP, but is still obviously upset over it. (Even though she recognized how absolutely disasterous carrying though with it would have been for her.)
Now I find out that the OP still sends her gifts, most recently one that has great sentimental value to my wife.
One thing that she mentioned to me after breaking things off with him was that now things between her and I seemed "clearer". She even mentioned her openness to working things out with me.
Very unsettling talking to myself in this way; maybe it will clear things up, maybe I'm spinning my wheels with useless thinking. Who knows?
Note #1
I think I may have had a bad case of 'getting one's hopes up' a while back when the wife told me she was putting the brakes on her 'friendship' with OP. My response to her upon hearing the news was guarded to say the least - I simply expressed my hopes that she was doing OK with everything. In fact, even my own internal response was pretty moderate. Almost immediately, I reined in my feelings of relief and happiness. "It could all change tomorrow," I figured.
It didn't however. Within a few days, my wife spontaneously brought up the issue of a reconciliation, recognizing that it would be difficult and so on, but open to the possibility.
In this case, being 'guarded' was again my watchword. She wanted me to say what I thought about it, and I said what I felt - in essence, that the possibility was there and that I would work for it - but I didn't press the issue.
Then there was talk about us moving in together (possibly, somewhere down the line, if things work out, etc., etc., etc.)
Then the issue of children, pets, and all the other accoutrements of domesticity. (We've led a pretty austere life for a while for a number of reasons, so these things would open up a new era for us.)
I did not do much to continue these conversations. It seemed appropriate to very lightly agree, ask questions, say "ummmm," and basically hold my cards close to my chest. No need to give away the fact that this was certainly what I've been waiting to hear for months.
But the fly in the ointment: contact with OP not broken off, simply drastically curtailed. Reports of a few brief cell conversations, primarily one to address OP's "devastation" and "confusion" about the end of the affair. So, the wife wants to deal with OP humanely. I can recognize decency in ideals. No need to be cynical.
But the gifts keep coming, and things that were to be returned are not returned. (Hard to get to the post office, etc.)
Hence: suspicion. Not enough to derail my basically easygoing and friendly interaction with the wife (I should say that we've always been very affectionate with each other), not enough to draw up "boundaries" (we're at least sleeping in the same bed most every night), not enough to rile up my occasionally iracible nature (because the thought of OP and his shenanigans crossing my mind manages to enrage me still, as little as I try to let this come out).
But enough.
She's subsequently admitted that her feelings for OP are not at all dead and buried. It seems that the "clarity" she referred to that she expected to gain by cutting him off has a few clouds in it.
On top of this: A very disturbing admission that she feels that she doesn't deserve to be loved. A welcome admission that she recognizes an eating disorder.
A perhaps helpful decision to seek help, albeit not with a professional (of whom there are many of many degrees of quality, as she knows from experience), but with a priest.
Helpful? It is difficult to say. We've spoken to one before, with less-than-amazing results. Of course, the marriage 'professionals' we've seen were worse than useless, so that actually is saying a lot. But how this will help her with deeper issues remains very questionable to me.
See, I'm in a quandry as to what to do at this stage. It mirrors the way I feel at every point where something appears to change - for instance, the impending OP visit a while back impelled me to write here, while an earlier thing (I think it was the "hopeless" verdict my wife delivered to me at some point) got me into the whole DB thing in general.
I know that some of you out there have gone through these ups and downs - what I'd really like to see is some specific advice about how to handle things now. How did you do it? How did it work? Etc.
I don't want to muck things up. Perhaps progress has been made, even if we have a two step forward, one step back tune playing in the background.
Should I 'switch things up' at this stage? Is this a good time to do 180s? Of what kind?
Is continuing to work on my own behavior (listening, basic Mars Men, Venus Women stuff, genuine loving a la Fromm, and all of the other real insights I've gotten into what I was doing wrong), is that enough at this stage?
So much of what is behind DB (and other things of that ilk) is the emphasis on what you can do about yourself with a firm recognition that you cannot do everything about everybody else. But there is a 'strategy' - this isn't exactly the serenity prayer. Some courses of action work better than others.
Skimmed your last post. You need to give W hope. It's okay to show her you are excited that she is chosing you instead of OP. Be patient about breaking contact with OP, it will take her a longer time than you think it should, so support her, and show her that you really do want her to be with you.
Word of caution though, don't let her push the reconcilliation and continue A with OP. It's okay to begin reconcilliation, just don't let her feel like her double life, making up with you while continuing A with OP, is okay. let her know you are willing to start with her, and that it will take her a while to get rid of OP, and that you are there to support her, but really don't want to hear every detail.
It took my wife several months after breaking it off with OM to purge gifts and things. It's something she needs to do on her own time, if you force it or do it for her, it's not her decision. Side story: I'm a frugal person by nature, and got into the habit of checking the garbage whenever W "cleaned up". She would throw away useful, and often important items that I really wanted to keep. I noticed she had thrown away a lot of unused bath oils and salts and took them out of the garbage can and left them in the garage, figuring I'd surprise W by drawing her a bath and using them some night. W noticed them in the garage and after a few days confided that OM had given them to her, and she understood they were unopened, but she wanted them out of the house. I didn't waste a minute and went straight to the garage and put them in the garbage can.
Be the person you want to be around W. If you want to be a happy, exciting guy, then act excited and happy about her wanting to reconcil. You will naturally keep a part of yourself protected for a long time, don't let that get in the way of W seeing the person you want her to see.
It's not all or nothing, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Keep walking the talk, and give W time to walk with you.
Well, things are apparently not so cut and dried regarding the supposed break with the OP. My wife now admits that she is afraid of 'losing' him.
She's not hiding the fact that she continues to speak to him, and has stated that she doesn't want to feel like she is 'sneaking around.'
She also continues to express how fearful she is about trying to make things work with me.
From her standpoint, she gave me half her life, and the remaining half is all she has left. She doesn't want to gamble it on something she's not sure of.
That "not being sure" seems mostly to do with her perception of me.
She's noted how confused she is by my new (and better) behavior. By this, she mostly means my improved listening skills, but I also think that I've managed to get a handle on other things as well and it shows. She's wondering how long it will last.
All I can tell her is that I'm trying to do the things for her I failed to do in the past. I can't expect to "convince" her of my earnestness by words.
Other than that big hurdle, her relationship with my parents is horrendous. Basically, she never wants to speak to them again, and doesn't see how our marriage can work given her feelings in that regard.
I can imagine everyones's advice: "Give her time."
But she is obviously growing impatient with the status quo (and I think that both the OP and her "counselers" (priest, friends) are pushing her there).
Sometimes it seems as if I'm too late in my efforts.
Quote: But she is obviously growing impatient with the status quo (and I think that both the OP and her "counselers" (priest, friends) are pushing her there).
Let them push her and pressure her all they want. Who do you think she will turn to when she gets sick of all of the pressure from the OP? As long as you continue to validate and listen you should be good.
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
Just last night, she told me that a counseler recommended by the priest called her to set up an appointment.
She is going to see this counseler this week, and asked if I wanted to see him too, albeit separately (at least at first).
I agreed, but very strongly suspect that the main idea behind this is to somehow get me to accept the fact that we must get divorced and that there is no hope for our marriage.
I'm not sure about how to take this, nor about how to handle the actual sessions, especially when they start to include both of us.
I'm going to search around on this site for similar experiences, but I really would appreciate the insight of others here.
I was surprised too that my H agreed to a C session as soon as he left, the first one w/a pastor was a mess, he denied lots of things. The second one w/an actual licenced C even worse, she saw right through him, that he came just to "drop me" off and told me right off (the C) to accept he was gone, w/that he just left.
Anyways, eventually we did go back to another C who told us he did see hope for us and that we could work it out, a total 180 from the first one, and he did help some. I did dread when we had to go, but once there it was like getting the ooze out of a wound, the stuff has to come out for the wound to heal. Our C never let us point fingers nor say "but he/she does this, that", only led us to talk abour how we felt.
Though our current is the best, he had an actual plan and right off we felt much better when we left the office, granted, he was back home and had reach rock bottom.
Good luck, I do hope you guys make some progress.
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
We've gone to two (more or less) useless counselers already; the first saw no reason to ask why my wife said she had no hope, the second seemed more intent on figuring out why I was upset by the whole matter.
(I'm not saying these things to denigrate counselers in general, but I do suspect that many of them are hide-bound by their general prejudices about how things work in relationships.)
I'm steeling myself for more of the same with the coming meeting. Hoping for the best nonetheless.
Right now, I just keep wondering about what could ever allow my wife to get over the fear she has that a future life with me would be as bad as before. She really feels that it was destroying her.
I know that her feelings about me and the relationship are not going to change overnight. Yet I hope that in the midst of everything that is going on (OP involvement continuing, counseling, holidays coming up, etc.) my changes continue to be apparent.
Thought I would write here to ease some anxiety. There is something in me that feels better when I relate what's going on (and part that feels worse, unfortunately.)
I see now, after reading so many other posts (which incidentally is ruining my eyesight), that I really did get my hopes up far and beyond what the situation called for.
Although my wife said she was calling it off with the OP, I should have known that her feelings about him weren't going to change overnight. Nor would her feelings about me.
What leads me to being overly hopeful is that my wife constantly maintains that she loves me - she's very vocal about this, and adds superlatives to the basic statement all the time.
Now, either she is trying to convince herself about this (although at this stage, the only reason why would be that she feels sorry for me) or she really feels it.
I've been assuming the second.
So, because of that, deep down I've been figuring that she doesn't really want to leave, and that either the OP or other situations are leading her in that direction.
I haven't seemed to hear her when she says how much she's wanted to fly the coop, and for how long this has been going on.
The fact that she's now going to a professional (after so long of refusing to do so) seems like she is looking for support for her decision to go.
Also, now that I know that the OP is not out of the picture, I feel like the situation is back to where it was months ago.
However, the changes - the fact that I have insight into what I was doing that hurt her, the fact that she said that she was considering the "impossibility" of us being together again, the fact that we spend a lot of good, non-relationship-dissection time together - do seem to have come from my enactment of some of the DB principles.
So I have very mixed emotions about what's going on now. Hence the anxiety.
Now, it seems that the whole "get a life" idea has the side-effect of lessening that, and I've experienced the benefits of throwing myself into my work more.
But once again, it seems like I'm at a critical juncture. Or am I making far too much of everything?
