Ok, guys jump in here. It is my opinion that masturbation is more physically stimulating. I have seen "actions" that I would think hurt that are applied with great furvor.
Could it be the same as the "vibrator" being satisfying but the H not?
When was his last physical? How is his health? I missed, what is his age?
Pity me that the heart is slow to learn
What the swift mind beholds at every turn.
Edna St. Vincent Millay
I am new here but married 15 years LDW, pardon me if I miss DB principles. I will do my best to help you based on my uneducated reflections and will speak only from my male perspective in order to save some ink. To your question: Yes it can be much more satisfying MB’ing than having sex or making love to your W.
Why? First is the baggage. If your husband has lost intimacy with you through relationship baggage he will prefer MB or MB w porn. He does not have to deal with baggage when he is alone and he gets to blame you at the same time (win/win to ultimately loose)
Second is the stimulation. If he is good at MB a partner can be a distraction on focusing on the mighty O. When a man MB’s for sexual release he can focus entirely on himself and every movement he experiences is by definition heightening his satisfaction.
As an aside to the stimulation. If he uses porn to MB the problem is harder for you- you simply can not compete with the visual input available to him. If this is in your sitch view porn as a drug. Given what you have written then he would be an addict. That means he will do and say anything to get the porn MB fix.
Finally satisfaction. How often does he MB? How does that realistically equate to you willingness?
I have struggled with this I have the same experience and agree with Netbrsr.
You did no ask for advice but I will give you what I needed for your consideration noting porn was in our equation with a long history. I am/was (cycling) to the point where I would say "I don't need or want to make love to you". Meanwhile my resentment toward a wife who would not initiate (as defined by me not her) burned under the surface. If this is possibly your sitch then consider: talk is cheap. Talk does no overcome actions and does not eradicate baggage. Simply put what I needed (independent of the words I was using) was my wife to aggressively initiate sex. To get my point across I needed her to "rape me". From that sexual healing came the underpinning of rebuilding the intimacy portions of the relationship which was of course the broken part on both sides.
I am very interested in what you have to say. I am the HDW and am married to a man who is sexually timid while he has no problem with bawdy sexual humor and who openly admits to MB to porn (how often etc... I don't know). I have been "fended off" more times than I can count and he seems happiest to initiate on his timetable (once every two or three weeks) with me making no overtures or initiations in the meantime and definately no references to our R or our Sexual R during that time. He would describe us as "intimate" and "connected" while I would not. He married me later in life (mid-30's) with few close relationships, never a live in sitch and I have come to think that the MB/Porn had just become such a way of life and second nature to him that sex with a partner is just sort of a lot of trouble. So, it is sort of like an occasional treat. He only likes it one way - me on top (I guess that gets at the visual need). So, if I were to use what you were saying and apply it to my own sitch, you would say that he is in a type of approach/avoidance cycle that you have found broken only by extreme, aggressive sexuality that in a way "competes" with the porn? Or is it that you are just saying it broke through the resistance?
We are sort of a mixture here so I am not sure how much overlap applies. I am HD and now am at the “forget it” point making me essentially LD. For your sitch I am just surmising; beware being burdened with free advice.
My W and I both feel controlled, my wife has most of the responsibilities in our life. Briefly we own a pretty big small business. She is the bean counter and I am the entrepreneur (and CEO). House: I am essentially one of the kids at many levels and she takes care of the house books etc. That is the polarized view anyway.
I agree essentially with your read on you vs. porn for his O since he has been MB w Porn for a long time. So we must presume he has good thrust, we need to work on vector. All this probably could come down to needing to be convinced you find him attractive (concurring then with approach/avoidance cycle). In which case my thinking is lift him emotionally, and build sexual intimacy and embolden the non sexual intimacy for him to let go of the porn.
“broken only by extreme, aggressive sexuality”. What I needed was to feel W wanted to ML with me to meet her own sexual needs, not mine. This makes me feel needed and important to her life as a sexual being. I need to know she is willing to push until she gets it because she believes sexuality between us is important. Given he is timid I would not pull out the Victoria’s Secret collection. Consider GEL’s points which I get though not me. I would start from you comfort position:: snuggling but be persistent, rub his penis, if you think the “Madonna complex” a possibility stay in bounds but never give up. Just keep going and then see if he will come to you in a previously OK position- Inside the boundaries of your relationship say through action “I want you”.
I think though before you set your rudder you need to know what kind of porn we are talking about and the frequency would be good to understand too. I have no idea how to deal with a homosexual issue. If you have thought it possible then it might be good to know if he is looking at male bisexual or homosexual stuff. If you are on top and sitting up he can be pretty detached emotionally from you (ask your self if his eyes are shut). IMPO most anything else to - everything else – in the porn world you can beat.
To your question “competing” with porn is closest but I would phrase it more like “blocking porn”. He is horny and has two choices. You want to envelop him so he can not find the excuse to rebuff you. He may still go down and MB to porn after making love to you at first unless you can coax several O’s out if him. At the core of all this is the intimacy. Porn can not provide it. With it in your relationship I believe porn can not compete. There are a lot more learned folks on that I’m sure. For me when our sex life was natural, regular and had some variety; porn was a non issue. I will think more but will note for now that possibly varied positions, that flow from one to another (i.e. not programmed or mechanical) might be a good gauge of success.
“I just dont want to be forcing him into having sex with me.” Right now when my W and ML it is mechanical and unsatisfying. I feel like she is doing it as her marital duty. Compounding that is I hate that she enjoys it and has Os. I mention this because I fear for you if your current approaches regularly lead to “OK I know I have to do this” from H. Gets old leads and leads wandering.
I have never fended off my W so if you are rubbing him and nibbling on his neck etc to spool him up and he is rejecting after you really try (months) then he is more like my LD wife- note my “call sign”. I just don’t know. My W never has MB’d though so perhaps there is hope and he can come back to you following the “lift his esteem and build intimacy” through healthy sex approach.
Good luck I would get opinions from the regulars that make sense to you, C or books before committing to a plan.
Thanks for the thoughts. All his extra-curricular porn activity is unknowable to me. His computer is totally private with a private password and he maintains the network and cleans the computer regularly - he works from home sometimes. I use a separate computer. Actually, I have a marital book collection that would rival most therapists and I have been a regular on here for a couple of years. I have tried various "plans". Every once in a while I see a posting that piques my interest like yours did. Mostly, I submerge my sexuality and often feel LD like you. For me, it is rarely a true LD - feels a little like putting the saran wrap on while the leftovers are still boiling - it might be covered but the steam underneath is forming a tent. Anyway, you did give me some things to think about.
Since you are well versed in this marital psych stuff (I am not - creating my sheepish position) I’ll just rattle along and you can sort it out.
If he admits to porn I don’t get the cleaning thing. It is a red flag to me. I presume you know how to check his cookie file and that is what is being cleaned along with the usual search histories etc. On the other hand, looking at myself there are some sites I would be embarrassed about as it applies to my W of long standing and the mother of my children. Honestly I’m here to understand some of my resistance to dialog with my W on this issue.
I have to say that my wife has only become “more so” over the years to the point that now she is “doing her duty” and I am feeling way low. I suppose this is not DB but I have come to realize, looking back, that I fooled myself in to thinking this would all work out. I will say that if we did not have children, (I will not abandon them having come from a broken home myself) I would be gone. Sex/intimacy for me is just way to important to live without and I have done this for nearly half my life. Hurts to say this as it seems so shallow. We did not have one harsh word for each other for the first four years we lived together. We have built a strong business together; have no drug, violence or health issues that many on this site have. Yet I look back over twenty one years, today being our 16th anniversary, and the certainty of wanting a real intimate sexual existence looms large- larger than anything except my children’s emotional health.
The harder you try, the luckier you are. Good luck. NW
Long story. H is a meticulous guy and cleans up everything the way he cleans his computer. There are no cookies to check and why would I check since he has told me he uses porn. I consider it an ethical violation to hack into his computer. I woudn't consider it so if I thought I was being lied to.
For you - have you read Passionate Marriage? That is a much favored marital tome for the folks on this site. it might go a long way to explain some of her resistances and yours.
