Quote: As for history I agree both sides paint a selective picture that fits their side of situation as they see it...but I don't know if that is 100% true
I think the fact we acknowledge that we do this demonstrates that we are interested in truth. Our minds are open enough to look at more than just the good side of the equation. I tend to think that the history is looked upon as a source of negative facts to support their motivation to leave, not the other way around. In my case my W has acknowledged that she had an "awakening" as a result of this affair - it's not like she was sitting around thinking of a way out of the miserable problematic situation. She's got a convenient list of grievances to make her case with now, but it's funny how they never pointed to things being hopeless before.
Quote: At least in my case my WAS still fights any notion that the OM is part of the problem. I have stopped fighting this battle because it is pointless but I truly believe that if the OP was not in any of our situations things would not be as bad.
Agreed. They are trying to convince themselves of this as well. They are trying to see two things that are now fused as separate - it's not possible. They are trying to reconcile what they have done and justify it. This is not to say that there aren't issues - all relationships have issues. It's just the conclusions drawn from this evidence are not responsible, mature decisions, rather they are fueled by selfish lust.
Quote: Another reason I want my W out...let her actually live in the real world...with bills...a job...real problems
I can certainly relate to this. It's easy to blame someone for not being good enough when you don't take responsibility for your own well being. How difficult is it for you to say to someone "you just don't do that well enough for me"? Again, it's the comparison of a real person against a fantasy. We're not good enough because we don't meet their expectations. What they don't realize yet is that the OP doesn't either - they just haven't yet separated their projection from reality.
One thing I would caution you on is dating other people. If you have any interest in you marriage, I would not do this. I think you are condoning her actions, in a sense, also it can be perceived as trying to get revenge. I would just focus on living a full and well rounded life without a love interest for the moment.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: One thing I would caution you on is dating other people. If you have any interest in you marriage, I would not do this. I think you are condoning her actions, in a sense, also it can be perceived as trying to get revenge.
I totally agree with Muddle. I asked myself the same question about going out and dating other people but I came to the conclusion that if I did that would just be another reason for her to justify what she is doing. I am sure she thinks she has plenty already (In her mind) why give her one more?
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
Now to selfishly divert attention back onto my sitch for a second. Since the big event last monday, things have been a bit different. W has been trying to do more as a mom and as a person. She's more interested in doing things like cooking dinner or taking S4 out to do things. She even got really upset on Monday because her apple picking trip turned out to be a bit of a flop. She said "I just can't compete with you" and "I'll never have a normal life" basically totally down on herself. I feel bad for her, but this process is a good thing for her, to finally start pushing her way through her issues rather than being a slave to them. I wish she had addressed them within the context of our marriage, but she didn't.
Last night she went out to therapy, so I put S4 to bed and sat down to do some reading. The book I was reading (Boundaries) was missing from the nightstand! I looked in the bookcases and couldn't find it. When my W got home I confronted her about it and she said with a nasty little smirk on her face "It's my book. It's written with a slant that fits right into your little perspective right now - you can just pick and choose what you want to take out of it." She basically refused to give it back. I don't get it - it seems that she's trying to even control what I think now. She's censoring my thoughts by preventing me from reading this book. If she's walking away and leaving me, what difference does it make to her what I think? I don't get it. It doesn't really matter, does it?
In the end I think she's just really scared of what she's doing and her life ahead. I think she doesn't have the self confidence to go forward and know she'll make it and be better than just fine. I think she expects to fail, and doesn't even want to try. To me, her affair is symbolic of wanting to see something through, to have it define her, as a way of undoing all of the past failures in her life. She sees this as something so significant to her, yet it can not make up for all the little things she hasn't accomplished or seen through to completion in her life. Neither will it do anything for her going forward the way accomplishing little day to day goals will for her happiness or success going forward in life. Well there's nothing I can do to help her with this. She's in a huge amount of turmoil because part of her wants me to and is angry that I can't and haven't made everything all better for her, and part of her is angry at herself because she's put herself in this position where she's beneath other people including me, and is angry at me for being in a better place than she is. I try not to rub it in, but I guess when she says things like "I just can't cook this right" and I chime in that she's doing a great job, but that she shouldn't forget to have fun with it, it is something she could take as me trying to fix her. I guess I am in a way, because I hate to see her miserable. I want her to feel strong and happy and seeing her so down on herself is frustrating to her and to me. I take on responsibility for her feelings about herself. I know I can't and I have nothing but good intentions, but I do this and then she resents me for it and doesn't recognize the boundaries between us. She thinks it's my place to take care of her feelings.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: I take on responsibility for her feelings about herself. I know I can't and I have nothing but good intentions, but I do this and then she resents me for it and doesn't recognize the boundaries between us. She thinks it's my place to take care of her feelings
That kinda sounds a little hypocritical. You say that she thinks its your responsability to take care of her feelings in one sentence and in another you say that you try and lift her spirits then she resents you for it. There has got to be another way to go about trying to lift her spirits other than suggesting what she should do. Maybe instead of saying "Remeber to have Fun" you should have said somthing like" I feel you pain I have that problem as well when I make whatever" I do not know it just sounds like all of our wives are going crazy and do not know how to handle themselves at this point in time. I really wish I had more advise for you but all I can for you to do is to try wording things a little differently and see if that helps.
Ben 32 STBXW 29 3 kids (D1,S4,SD8) (1 dog 5months) Status: Fighting for the Kids.
"The only thing we know about future developments is that they will develope."
Quote: Wouldn't that just add fuel to the flame as well. Making them think that they are right? By sticking around and showing love through actions at least we are still putting doubt in their mind about their decisions they are making. Even if they do not show it.
No, anything you do to fight against them may be morally and spiritually "right" in terms of your marriage but in terms of their perspective, it only serves to prove them right about the one thing that is most damning; you don't respect them or care what they think.
Think about it. They have the OP comforting them, agreeing with them, telling them how much we are not "right" for them, how much we don't care and ultimately, that we will NEVER understand them the way THEY do!
When you put up a wall and refuse to even accept, AT ALL, her THOUGHTS/FEELINGS of the marriage being crap, it supports her already existing view that you cannot be a viable partner. I know it is totally counter-intuitive and goes against logic to an extent, but if you really approach your sitch as having no right and wrong, only different perspectives/interpretations of the same marital history then you can realize that trying to be "right" and more importantly, prove her "wrong", even by most all moral standards she is, only puts you on the wrong side of the battle.
It's such a horrible thing to try to figure out. Where does the line exist between condoning these feelings/actions and simply validating their existence. Validation is often confused with agreement. It is not, or more specifically, it's not agreement with the action/feelings you are validating, just agreement with the fact that they are HER feelings/actions and you acknowledge them. In your example, the convo may go something like...
WAS: Our marriage sucks and I think divorce would be best right now. We've NEVER been good together! LBS: Wow, it must hurt to feel like the past xx years were a waste. I agree, things could have been better. I know you feel they were always bad. That really hurts to think about. While I know you feel that way, and understand why you do, I don't really agree. If you want to talk about it some time, I'd like that.
That's in contrast to the all-too-familiar reply from us LBS's...
"What do you mean. We have ALWAYS been good together. What are you talking about. Don't you know how terrible divorce will be for the kids? Think about someone else but yourself here. I love you and I need you to understand how wrong you are about things. We can work this out. You need to stop seeing this guy and come back to me. This is just wrong and you know it!"
The point is that you HAVE to accept what she says as valid, if only to HER. Trying to make her think she's crazy is not really the way to win her heart but then again, condoning an affair isn't either.
Whatever you do to try to prove to her that she's wrong in how she feels is likely to make her feel worse about you. I know that sucks but in many cases it's true, especially when there is some a$$hole telling her she's 100% right. Who do you think she's going to FEEL better about?
Don't get me wrong, there ARE times where I think validation, no matter how well done, crosses the line to a$$kissing and enabling bad behavior but then again, this whole thing we are doing here walks that line all the time so WTH, why not this too?
You just have to read a lot, books, posts, whatever and then internalize all you get, eventually forming a personal way of doing all this. Post what you are doing and listen to what people say. If you agree, learn and move on. If you disagree, debate, learn and then move on.
It's a process. It's a journey and it CAN be done successfully! I may not be testament to that yet, but many others are.
Your recent posts have left me thinking about your sitch, Muddle. You are obviously a truly intellectual person and I can see how your W might feel "stupid" in comparison to you. She's now staked out the "feeling" ground as her "strength". My W has in the past kind of hit me with the same stuff, "You are a thinker, I am a feeler" (a friend of mine says, "she sure is, she feels anger all the time!"). She can't beat you intellectually, as I'm sure you can defend and philosophize to beat the best of them, so she goes for the pure emotion stuff. It seems you are at opposite poles and it's hard to find a centre. She takes your book cuz she sees you stocking your weapons silo and she feels defenseless. I don't know how this helps you in any way but it's just something that strikes me. Also, please don't think that I in anyway am saying you are purposely making her feel stupid, she does that to herself. But your propensity to examine logically etc. probably makes her feel all she can do is stick her tongue out and hide your books! She seems to be feeling pretty defenseless and helpless right now. What can you do? Maybe others will have some thoughts for you.
I think you're right, WI, at least about the fact that W feels inadequate in comparison to others, mainly me right now. It seems that she can only see her world as it affects her and I think you're right that she can only see how I would use the information I gained in that book against her, rather than seeing the sitaution as me, another human being, looking for knowledge about why our situation is what it is with the intention of being better able to have a good relationship in the future. But that wouldn't bolster her ego by making this all about her. I think that's another big part of all of this, she needs to feel wanted by everyone around her in order to feel valuable.
This morning my W called me at work to tell me the teacher called and our son was throwing up at school. She was home with a car, yet she was so upset she was incapacitated. I told her I was on my way. When I got home she upset, pretty openly, with herself for not just getting in the car and going to pick him up. I told her that I thought she did great in getting through to me. Again I suggested she not be so hard on herself - the end result was that our son was picked up and is fine. I just see her falling apart - she's so down on herself and this can't be helpful to her in any real or healthy way.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Yes, this all must be terribly hard on her too. Again, it's easy for us LBS's to forget the pain that our S's are feeling cuz we're feeling so bad. You did great, Muddle, you comforted her and tried to be a friend. Hope your son is OK.
Muddle, this duality, this gemini spirit of our WAS's seems to be another of the great universal themes.
One minute they are full of self righteousness about what they are doing almost to the point of super-human ability to be selfish and self motivated to get what they want. Then minutes, hours, or days later they are basket cases, full of self-loathing and anger but the strength is gone. It's at THOSE times we want to jump in and save them but often I think it's precisely then that we have to merely support from a bit afar.
I HATE to see my W break down, especially since she blames me for so much of it but then again, she blames me for her strength too (e.g. my behavior in the marriage pushed her to take action that she otherwise would not have had the courage or strength to take).
Then there are those rare times when they pop their heads out of the cloud and see something closer to what WE think is reality, that is how damaging their behavior is and such, and it sends them even further spiraling.
It seems like a never-ending cycle but one that I think we have to break out of for all our sakes.
GH, glad you're stopping in. I was a bit concerned that now that you're piecing we'd be out of sight out of mind. I think you're right on about that dynamic - in fact the other day my W said to me "how come you're nice to me only when I'm feeling down?" I was taken aback a bit because I thought "I'm always nice" but I think the dynamic is there. I see her vulnerability and want to be there for her. I need to be far more conscious of keeping my distance when she's feeling down. I noticed the other day shortly after she said that that I was in a sense rewarding her for feeling weak and down by trying to comfort her. So then the next logical step is to say I was doing that on purpose because I like to see her down and in a low place. I don't, but my actions can be perceived that way. So, my next task is to really be aware of this. I need to jump at the opportunity when it presents itself by doing less, if anything at all.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
