I can't believe the old post locked up ( Waters III ), but it did. I'm so far from where I want to be personally, and I feel like my world is crumbling around me. My honest good intentions mean nothing because of things I've set into motion already - judgements of family members mostly. I feel defensive, like I have a gang of people looking at things I've done looking for supporting evidence that I'm not good enough for my wife, that I haven't done what I should have. I did my best, but misprioritized things. Good intentions, poor execution. I have to keep forgiving myself that, and know that hindsight is 20/20. But it's difficult now.
Interactions have been better with W, but I feel like there's something between us, a huge waterfall of negativity - black water. We can only catch glimses of the true being on the other side and are tempted to believe the image we see through the negative screen.
I am confused because my wife talks about how we were both in denial before. We used to be close, touching, loving. Things were often lacking in the bedroom, but I attributed that to my W's depression. But even up until the A went into full swing we were pretty darn close. So where is the denial? In that we thought we were right for each other? Does she really think she was pretending all these years? I know there was stuff about me that frustrated her. There always will be with another person, because there's always stuff that frustrates us about ourselves. That's what I can't quite get my mind around, that I can't understand.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I think your feelings are natural. All of us that find us in this situation and at times feel like failures. We wonder how we got ourselves in this position and all of our past mistakes. Sometimes we are so hurting including our spouse that we forget all of the good we had in our past life and only remember the bad times.
I know it is hard to forget and get past these things especially when it is plainly evident that our spouse is still holding these past hurts fresh and foremost in their mind...but all you can do is be a better man now and hope the past eventually does drift into the past and the current good intentions replace those negative feelings.
I feel like I am heading for the exact same territory and I think my wife is going to stay for now...but your post hit home because now I know I have a lot of work in front of me...
"Friendship is like peeing your pants: everyone can see it, but only you can feel the true warmth."
Quote: I did my best, but misprioritized things. Good intentions, poor execution.
Well, that's me to a T, never meant to hurt my H in any way, I honestly didnt' know any better. You've accepted your share in the problems, you need to forgive yourself ONCE and for all, despite our mistakes nothing in this world justifies an A.
Quote: Does she really think she was pretending all these years? I know there was stuff about me that frustrated her. There always will be with another person, because there's always stuff that frustrates us about ourselves. That's what I can't quite get my mind around, that I can't understand.
She prob does, my H did for the longest time, told me -when he was away- he was just putting up a front, months later back w/me I asked him and he was happy during our M, he said "you tell me, did I seem like I was faking? I do think we had happy moments", you can't fake it for years!
She is the one who doesn't understand, everyone of us has their quirks and attitudes, you can't expect to have a marriage in which you never disagree, that's why 2nd marriages most times fail faster than the first, we all come w/our own baggage to a M, if a person is in denial the misery just follows that person like a dog.
I do remind my H when sometimes he gets frustrated and says "we still disagree on many things" and I say "yes, because (as the C told us) 60% of arguments in a M arent' solvable" it's how you deal with the problems that matters, how you handle them together and as a team, when you agree to disagree.
And about family and them disapproving of you, at some point I just had to say "Forget it". God knows and that's all that matters, no one really knows 100% what really goes on behind closed doors, so one should dare judge a marriage, things aren't what they seem. E.I: when my H was spiraling down into MLC, 2 wks before he left, 2wks after he empty our savings to get his appartment he went out driving on his motorcycle blindly and ended up at my brother's home. So my brother calls me and tells me "you should see how he's doing, he looks terrible, you need to be more understand, you need to stop being so harsh with him, yada yada..." I do have a bit of a temper so he just put all the blame on me without knowing ANYthing. I didnt' bother to explain him, just told him he didnt' know the whole story and that it was my H's depression.
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
Thanks. I think the self-forgivness is important because it allows us to look at our past without resisting the truth that we had something to do with what is wrong now. I think it allows for more clarity because we're not trying to protect the self by placing all the blame on another, but rather looking for the truth that's there. Accepting my contribution to the problems is one and the same as accepting responsibility for them, and this to me is a call to action. I have to realize here that action - otherwise I'm still trapped in the cycle of intending to do well and not executing. But where I went wrong in in the context of my marriage which doesn't exist anymore, so I need to take away from this analysis transferable knowledge that applies to my whole life and being and make these changes that once I'm back in another relationship will apply and make my contribution to that relationship work. The forgivness allows me to get beyond the pain in order to have the clarity to do the work, the real work lies beyond that boundary, one that I find I constantly get beyond and then fall behind again.
Yes she does probably believe she was pretending, and there probably was a part of her that was. But this is not the entirety. We can choose to focus on the half full or half empty. This is a part of the half empty - but the potential of what we could become has not yet been met, and to meet it, we have to build on the good that's there. The pretending is something that is a part of her, just as she's pretending now. This fantasy relationship she's in has a great deal of role play in it, I'm sure. This is pretending too. If she weren't pretending she'd have put off the relationship with OM, addressed our M and our family, made a clean responsible break and then pursue the other relationship for real. No pretending. Now, as a married woman she's pretending to be single, pretending she's moving on with her life. Not that she's not in some real way, but on some level it's pretending. I think to some degree there always will be a bit of pretending in a relationship, a little acting "as if" for the good of the relationship. This is natural.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
I read a quote recently, "forgive yourself again and again and again and again..."Kind of makes sense. After we forgive ourselves though it's time to take the bull be the horns. The past is full of our mistakes (and our S's mistakes) and we can work to turn some of those things around. That's all we can do so we must do it well! The future is still unmade and, to some degree, is still within our grasp. We make of it what we will. So, let's get this party rolling
Yes, that's my point exactly - I am caught in this cycle where I find myself on the wrong side of the hurt and pain and need to forgive myself again in order to get back to a place where the real work is done. I sometimes think about where I've been and marvel at the progress I've made personally, but it's meaningless in the situation, as it is. It will be relevant in the future, I hope to my W, but certainly to me.
I'm not really sure what I can do to avoid making more mistakes - but surely the biggest mistake is not to act. So I have been, and the progress is there, but I have to maintain motivation from the proper part of myself. I've tangled with that, and even when I thought I was being nice or good, it didn't come off that way. Well, another mistake I made in communicating, but I think I learned good lessons from those mistakes.
I think I'm too attached to the outcome I want. I have lots of justifications for my attachement, but I haven't been able to think about other outcomes in any clear way. I guess this is my way of maintaining hope, by not really allowing alternatives into my vision of the future. I abstractly know that it's possible that this won't be the outcome, but I'm in no way planning for it. Speaking about detachment, I sometimes wonder if this is counter to our objectives here because when we choose to detach it gives our spouses who have been detaching or are detached already some relief. They aren't aware of the loss of something they were attached to themselves, but rather the relief they feel when they have that freedom. On the other hand, if we are to re-discover ourselves in order to have more to invest into the relationship, we are doing the right thing. Kind of along the lines of a constructive separation.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
This is the debate we have inside ourselves. How do I detach (and "detach" has different actions attached to it for each of us) but still be engaged? Will she see my detachment as a lack of interest or will that space give her the time to recognize my true value as a S? Who the heck knows! We do know that our attachment efforts have been worth sh*t, so what choice do we have. Maybe its still the cheeseless tunnel thing, "showing how much I care is the right thing to do so maybe I should continue to show how much I care until she gets it cuz IT IS the right thing to do!" I know I play with that one myself a lot! How can I show love if I'm fully OK with not having love? But, on the other hand, showing love IN THE WAYS I HAVE CHOSEN is not getting love in return. Detachment to me is taking care of myself cuz I can't keep going if I'm making a mess of myself. Who the heck wants to come back to a pathetic emotional vegetable? You write,"Speaking about detachment, I sometimes wonder if this is counter to our objectives here because when we choose to detach it gives our spouses who have been detaching or are detached already some relief. They aren't aware of the loss of something they were attached to themselves, but rather the relief they feel when they have that freedom." All I can say is that maybe that freedom allows them time to breathe and really examine where they stand rather than forcing them to key on getting rid of us and our bothersome "attachment" antics. I mean think about it, how much patience do you have for the store clerk who can't stop himself from pushing the extended warranty on you, even when you say "STOP, I don't want the damn warranty"! "Well, sir, you should have it because..." Isn't it similar. We're offering our S's something they don't want and no matter how often they tell us they don't want it, we're still selling! All our S's see is that fat commission we're gonna get for ourselves in the end. Once more it is us getting what we want and they see themselves getting the usual zippo! They don't see the upside for themselves in working with us. "Today is your lucky day, dear, give up the OP and you"ll get what you've always got! A guy telling you how wonderful everything really is." Pretty darn appealing isn't it. That is what they see when we're attached. They aren't buying no matter how hard we try to sell it. I don't buy the damn extended warranties either .
You make a good case here, Whatis. It struck a couple of chords with me in that you talk about the potential gains for me versus the non-gains for my W. This is really more of the same. So how do I give up the appearance that I'm going to get something for myself at her expense without showing her that I really have changed and become someone that's far more attuned to her needs and far more concerned with her well being in practice than I have ever been before at the same time? Can't be done, can it? I tend to think the detachment part is more for us, so that we can better manage our emotions in the face of what we're dealing with. This is one of the more paradoxical parts of this quest - that we acknowledge that we were doing wrong, want to demonstrate that we can do right, but have to hold back because it has now become somewhat inappropriate to do so because the relationship doesn't exist. Mind boggling. I mean, if this was going on without the affair it would be difficult, but I know there would be some willingness from her to get things moving smoothly. Now, she's wary of anything I do as an attempt to fix things. So, it's just about living in the moment, trying to stay attuned to what is at the moment and act appropriately, without regard to what you want them to be. Demonstrate love without demand - but don't do so in a man/wife context, just person to person.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
It's pretty darn frustrating and, as you say, mind boggling. I have used GAL to show my changes. My W always felt that I was too obsessed with my family (and less so with our R) and did nothing else so I started getting involved with outside things and now am a much more well rounded human being. She sees it. She can rhyme off all the changes I have made. She said "just because I don't say anything doesn't mean I don't notcie". Therefore, I am not the same person who she rejected in the past. She now has to decide whether she wants the new person, or not.
Personally, I still can't quite come to grips with how you displace the fantasy of the OP. It is a fantasy where everything is wonderful because you keep real life out of it! Your W, Muddle, has the added thrill of being able to fantasize all sorts of incredible things because the OP isn't even in the country!Maybe detachment allows us LBS's to be more relaxed in the sitch and therefore makes us more attractive (in theory). Who wants a whiny, sulky, hurt little stress cadet living with you. It may also be a matter of what you can't have becomes more attractive, too. The fact that we wear are hearts on our sleeves is just not too enticing. Where is the romance in that? It's all there laid out on the table, what's to discover. Where's the thrill? Detachment maybe brings that element back into the picture. Who really knows. As always, these are just my disjointed thoughts, take em or leave em!
I'm so sick of being looked at and treated as stupid. Last night I wanted to help S4 learn to ride his bike. I read about a method of taking the training wheels and the pedals off the bike and letting the kid scoot around to get their balance. The bike he has was a little too big, and we tried twice. The second ttime he fell and was crying. He was telling me that he didn't listen to me and that's why he fell. Anyway, my W apparently got upset - and later in the evening I find a print out next to the bed about how to use training wheels. That pissed me off, but I let it go. I talked to her this morning and pointed out that the method I used was actually in what she printed out. She thought I push him too hard and that I should have stopped earlier. She literally thinks I'm stupid. Maybe I am, because I keep doing things to give her reason to think so.
She doesn't really think I've changed much. She has this friend, her cheerleader, who has always had something against me I think. When there was nothing going on between W and me she would gang up against me with her. Now she's got the ultimate reason to do so, and I have no doubt there's a whole lot of trash being talked about me between the two of them. At this point I just want to run away and start again fresh somewhere. I just don't think I can change enough, and being compared to this fantasy, I'm always going to be inadequate. I haven't felt this way in a long time - I've been self propelled. I've been fighting against something and she's been the crazy one. Now I'm starting to feel like I haven't really taken my life back and I'm stuck in this. She's moving forward and I'm still here, plugging along, making forward progress, but getting more and more hopeless about this situation.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
