Honestly no. I react that way because it infuriates me that he treats me the way he does and there is seemingly nothing I can do about it except try to give him a wake up call (tried that, didn't work) or leave. Of course, being here on the boards I have learned that there may be other ways. But to answer your quetion, no, my fears per se are not what drive my reactions. It's anger through and through.
I don’t really believe this. Remember, anger is a consequence, a symptom, a reaction to something else. What is this core issue? Why does his treating you as he does infuriate you? Is it the feeling of helplessness, of not having control, of his not listening to you? But why do these things bother you? It all has to come from your fears, your abandonment, your FOO. Nothing wrong with that. You know most of us here have similar issues.
But if you keep thinking your frustration is simply because of anger, without knowing where that anger originates, how are you going to cure it?
With thoughts like this, do you see why I gag at the thought of soothing him?! It's like I'm a little puppet on a string for him to manipulate and it works because he knows I care. Now *that* would be sick.
Now really think about this. Is it you who is the puppet or is it him? When your kids act out in frustration, who is the puppet? There is no difference that I can see between how you H reacts and your kids.
That idea that comforting him gags you means you really want him to comfort you instead, right? Great! Get radically honest and come to a mutual, self serving agreement to sooth each other, for your own selfish interests. Do it for him because you want him to do it for you, and vice versa. Let that bond set a while, then try to move up the empathy ladder one step at a time, trying to understand each other’s pain, then helping one another to sooth that hurt.
Can you see why it is so important that you first realize you have these emotional hurts, and that it is not some generalized problem with anger? Coming to terms with your hurts will take away some of the fear you have in making yourself vulnerable and facing intimacy.
Your gag reflex is very strong. I know. It gagged me and it nearly suffocated my W. Confronting this is the “holding onto yourself” phase that is relevant from Schnarch. It is not easy, but it is critical. You want intimacy, but right now, when it comes, you will not be ready to accept it. If your H offers it and you reject, it may be a long time before he offers it again. Be ready for what you ask for.
Remember, anger is a consequence, a symptom, a reaction to something else. What is this core issue? Why does his treating you as he does infuriate you?
It infuriates me because I find his behavior disrespectful. I envision the way friends treat one another or the way two people who are dating treat one another and it infuriates me that he would treat me any less.
But if you keep thinking your frustration is simply because of anger, without knowing where that anger originates, how are you going to cure it?
Somehow I feel like it's connected to jealousy. I can't quite say how which is why I haven't really brought it up except to ask if anyone had any good book recommendations on the subject.
Is it you who is the puppet or is it him? When your kids act out in frustration, who is the puppet? There is no difference that I can see between how you H reacts and your kids.
I was referring to the idea that H would purposely be nice to me to reel me in just to make me vulnerable so that I'd be more susceptible to the next blow. That would very much make me the puppet because I'm unsuspecting and react just the way he wants. That's different from how my kids would act because they're not trying to set me up to hurt me.
You want intimacy, but right now, when it comes, you will not be ready to accept it. If your H offers it and you reject, it may be a long time before he offers it again. Be ready for what you ask for.
I see your point. The whole time I was reading Passionate Marriage, I was thinking 'Our marriage is SO not here yet, this is sort of a waste of time'. I don't really have a problem being vulnerable as long as I feel safe. I think somehow I have low self esteem even though no one else seems to see that about me. If something brings on my feelings of doubt about myself, I shut down. But in general, I don't think I'm closed to intimacy or not able to reciprocate it. It's just difficult right now because H has treated me in such a way that makes me not trust him and feel that I'm a weak fool if I love him. And the pornography thing puts another spin on the physical side of things, which I haven't really had to face because we're not really being physical. But I know it's there.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
To me the answers you are looking for are actually in the questions you ask.
I think somehow I have low self esteem even though no one else seems to see that about me. If something brings on my feelings of doubt about myself, I shut down.
It might be possible that many more people see this in you than you think…. I’m pretty sure your H could write a book about it, as it concerns you.
It infuriates me because I find his behavior disrespectful. I envision the way friends treat one another or the way two people who are dating treat one another and it infuriates me that he would treat me any less.
I completely understand your feelings about disrespect. That is a button of mine, though not a hot one. You might be feeling disrespect because you do not feel accepted, validated, worthy, valuable, etc…. Why this things would bother you all come back to a feeling of exclusion, which is a milder form of abandonment, don’t you think? When he disrespects you, he is indirectly abandoning you.
Somehow I feel like it's connected to jealousy. I can't quite say how which is why I haven't really brought it up except to ask if anyone had any good book recommendations on the subject.
Jealousy is just another symptom, a reaction. The same logic as disrespect.
I was referring to the idea that H would purposely be nice to me to reel me in just to make me vulnerable so that I'd be more susceptible to the next blow. That would very much make me the puppet because I'm unsuspecting and react just the way he wants. That's different from how my kids would act because they're not trying to set me up to hurt me.
Yes, I understand this, but how do you know this is what he is doing? What if your kids were baby geniuses and reeling you in the same way. Would you have the same emotional reaction to their treating you like a puppet? Your kids will manipulate the heck out of you as they get older, but I doubt it will push the same buttons as when your H does it. It might be better to think of your H more as you do your kids and don’t let it get under your skin so much.
I don't really have a problem being vulnerable as long as I feel safe.
No one does. The problem is in feeling safe. You can be locked in a padded storm cellar and still not feel safe, if there is some voice in your head telling you that you are not safe. You can feel safe standing on top of a radio antennae in a lighting storm if that same voice tells you that you are safe. Safety is not just HIM doing something to make you safe, it is also you taking that leap of faith that you will be safe. No one can make this leap for you.
But in general, I don't think I'm closed to intimacy or not able to reciprocate it.
I hope so because thinking you can do something and then actually doing it are not the same.
It's just difficult right now because H has treated me in such a way that makes me not trust him and feel that I'm a weak fool if I love him.
Why does the fact that you love someone who has problems make you a weak person. It seems to me like you are a strong person for being willing to do that, to show compassion, and help him work through his issues. Don’t punish him for you low self esteem issues. If you have these problems, focus on where they came from and don’t project it all onto your H.
Think of him as a hurt child and try to let him know that you want to understand his pain, his hurts, his fears of abandonment. Look at him as you do you son when he is hurt. Each time you listen to your H’s angry outbursts, try to hear what he is really upset about. It will always be the same thing – his hurt and fears. Try this on the supposition that you have to do it first so you can get him to do the same to you. It is a purely selfish act on your part. If it helps your sense of vengeance to think this is your way of manipulating him as your puppet to eventually have him soothe you, then do so. (Just don’t say anything about it.)
And the pornography thing puts another spin on the physical side of things, which I haven't really had to face because we're not really being physical. But I know it's there.
And stop obsessing about the porn. This is just another way to abandon you and play on your fears. It is his way of manipulating you. Let it go for now.
It might be possible that many more people see this in you than you think…. I’m pretty sure your H could write a book about it, as it concerns you.
On the contrary, my H has laughed when I've mentioned this. I can remember one time in particular when he sarcastically said something along the lines of 'You have *no* problems with your self esteem!' The inference there I guess is that he thinks I have a big ego. ??
Why this things would bother you all come back to a feeling of exclusion, which is a milder form of abandonment, don’t you think? When he disrespects you, he is indirectly abandoning you.
Possibly, but I don't see where that helps me. Is labeling it abandonmnet as opposed to disrespect supposed to make it easier to accept? BTW, there is no sarcasm in my voice (at this moment )despite how it may sound in writing.
Yes, I understand this, but how do you know this is what he is doing?
I don't. I was just responding to your suggestion that it could be what he's doing.
Safety is not just HIM doing something to make you safe, it is also you taking that leap of faith that you will be safe. No one can make this leap for you.
I agree. But we're also smart individuals, we know when we are safe and when we are not, and we have to give ourselves credit where credit is due. Different perspectives are helpful, but overall, we know when the temperature is safe enough to dive in. When it's ice cold or steaming hot, we can try to tell ourselves that it's ok, it's not that bad, it won't last forever, it's not the water's fault, etc. But all that stuff, on an ongoing basis, will ultimately result in you losing trust in yourself. Trust in your reaction that it is not safe to jump in. We know what is best for ourselves. I actually think the problem, at least in my case, is that I choose to ignore my inner voice. For some good reasons and for some not so good reasons. But what I want to say is that telling yourself something, while it can be effective at times to change your frame of reference, does not make it so. You're smarter than that and so am I. Unfortunately.
I hope so because thinking you can do something and then actually doing it are not the same.
I agree. One of the reasons I can say this with confidence is because of the weekend we spent in Annapolis. I warmed up to him immediately. Not in a week, not in a day. In like 10 minutes. The distance between H and I is created by him, I can this much more clearly now. He has spent so long telling me that I set the temperature, I set the tone. If I'm nice to him, he responds. But I know that he only responds so far and before long, the temperature in the R is back to cold. For whatever reasons, he maintains a distance.
It seems to me like you are a strong person for being willing to do that, to show compassion, and help him work through his issues.
I would say perhaps this is true of GEL. She seems genuinely willing to help her H through his issues. Maybe that is the case b/c her H can admit he has issues. I do not feel that the above statement is true for me. H maintains such a distance and the temperature has become so cold, that there is not much compassion. I have it in me, but there's been no need, no calling for it. I'm the one with the problems as far as H is concerned. If you don't admit your shortcomings, then you don't need help, you don't need compassion.
And stop obsessing about the porn. This is just another way to abandon you and play on your fears. It is his way of manipulating you.
No Cobra, it isn't. He hides it from me, he looks at it at work. How can that have anything to do with playing on my fears and manipulating me? If that were the case, he would use it to his advantage, he would say hurtful things to me, perhaps leave it where he knows I'll find it. That's not the case. He won't talk about it, won't stop doing it and hides it from me. That's a whole different animal. I would not say I'm obssessing about the porn, but I can tell you that it will not go away unless it goes away. Period.
Things that are going right: H and I have been co-parenting pretty well for the most part....we've been having a downslide though I have felt it creeping in. More on that later. S6 and I have had the best R in years.....he's coming to me (over Daddy!) for some things. That's never happened. He's told me that I'm beautiful and that he loves me.....those are things he's never really offered up before unless I say I love you first and then sometimes he'd say it back and sometimes he wouldn't. I've told him how proud I am of him, he just started reading and he's doing so well in school. I explained his report card to him and told him what a wonderful job he's doing. I've made a big deal of the funny things he says (and he's said some doozies!). He likes to laugh with me, make me laugh. I recognize that in him because I was the same way with my Dad. We had a great Thanksgiving in the outer banks of NC, we rented an 8 bedroom three story house, there were 18 of us. H's family. It was relaxing, fun, we had a great time. We're still waiting to hear about the land to build the house. My sister is coming to visit this weekend. I plan to wash my bedding and give her the guest bedroom. I then plan to sleep in my own bed, at least for the weekend. I will not sleep on the couch when we have guests in our home. That may cause problems, I honestly wasn't expecting too big of a resistance, but after this morning I'm not sure about that anymore. Which brings us to what's going bad. H has supposedly seen some problems with S6. Something isn't right, etc. Personally, I think H is feeling distraught about the R that S6 and I have been developing. I could see it coming when there were a couple of instances where Daddy was right there, but for whatever reason, S6 came to me. So, next thing I know, Daddy and S6 need a 'boys night out'. Fine. I was supportive even though I had my thoughts about what was happening. We meet up at S6's musical program at school at 6:30pm. S6 will barely say hi to me. We go to dinner S6 was not very hungry. He laid his head in my lap in the booth, was tired and said so. But still, H insists on keeping him up, he just will not give on the bedtime thing. I'm amazed. We get home and H starts doing homework. It's 9:15pm. I said I would help S6 do it in the morning, but H continued. We got into an argument and H says in front of S6 that I favor D3 and don't treat S6 fairly. Even if that were true, I'm still stunned that he said that in front of S6. Last night after S6 was in bed, I told H I would appreciate it if he would keep his nasty comments to himself when we're in front of S6 and he mumbled someting with the F word in it, I don't even know what he said. I can see what H is doing and it pisses me off to no end. He can see that S6's and my R has been improving and instead of seeing the benefits of that, he feels the loss. And he is doing whatever he can to change the dynamics back. The last few nights, there has been tension about the bedtime and H has dropped sentences here and there telling me that I'm not nice to S6 and I treat D3 differently, but last night is the first time he's said it right in front of S6. I've disregarded H's comments because it's simply not true. I treat the kids with the same amount of love and concern and I know this because I can say with 100% honesty to myself that I love them the same and I want to instill the same values in both of them. I know that some parents prefer one child or the other, I simply do not. If anything, it is my H who favors S6. He arranges special 'outings', buys him special presents, takes S6 to bed with him.....I can't see how he can possibly deny it, but alas he not only denies it, but accuses me of it. I almost always try to see his point of view, but there is positively no truth the to idea that I treat S6 unfarily. He is older and therefore has more responsility, if you can call it that, than his sister. That is part of being older and becasue of that he also has more privileges. That's life. There are certain things that I've started doing and it drives H crazy. I expect S6 to dress himself for the most part. I give him his clothes and unless he requests my help, he is expected to get himself ready. I have to constantly remind him because he gets distracted with the TV. Sometimes he has to go down to his room and get dressed and then come back out so that the TV doesn't distract him but that is only if I've had to ask him repeatedly and I always give him a warning before I send him down to his room. I still help D3 get dressed. She is turning 4 and she's very independent anyway, I expect her to be ready to dress herself pretty soon. I also expect the kids to put their dirty clothes in the clothes basket. Finally, since Kindegarten has started, I've asked S6 to carry his own backpack and lunchbox. I've tried to establish that he has ownership and responsibility for those items. Obviously I don't yell at him if he forgets it or anything, I just remind him to get it. Those things drive H crazy. H dresses S6, if I ask S6 to pick up his dirty clothes, H says "I'll handle it". This morning I just said "That's ok Daddy, we can do it. Come on guys, let's get your clothes in the basket". H says I'm trying to make them (him) grow up too fast. ?? Lately, S6 gets up and eats his cereal and then goes down to Daddy's room and crawls in bed with him (on the days I take the kids to school, H is still sleeping). I carry S6's clothes down there for him, but because S6 knows Daddy dresses him, he doesn't take responsiblity for dressing himself and as a result, I become dependent on H. Sometimes S6 falls back asleep before he is dressed. On the occasion that I tried to tell S6 that if he falls back asleep and doesn't get ready like he's supposed to, he won't be able to come down here, H told me to 'just go on', i.e 'get out'. H is convinced that I have a problem with S6 being down there snuggling. I'm just miffed that he cannot see the problem is not that I'm jealous of the snuggling!! HEL-LO, the problem is that I've gotten S6 up and then he goes down there and falls back asleep again. Everything is such a battle!! Then of course, there is this morning. H told me that I treat S6 'like sh!t' and he is tired of sitting by and watching it happen. My jaw dropped. My H just told me I treat my son like sh!t?! Really, I mean like *sh!t*? Did I hear that right? My whold body had a reaction.....I can't even describe it. If he'd have been looking at me, I'm pretty sure I'd have smacked him across the face. I told him not to *ever* utter those words to me again and he said he'd say them as often as it was true. Of course, he wouldn't look at me, he was getting clothes out of S6's drawer, left the room and said the last part without even being in the same room as me. I was shaking, I'm pretty much in disbelief even now. I mean, I know we have our parenting differences, but for him to say that.....I think it was the last uncharted territory I guess. He's insulted my parenting several times before, but to tell me I treat my child like sh!t, it's practically implying child abuse or something. It's unforigiveable quite honestly.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Hey Heather! How's your sister's visit going? Hopefully you guys are enjoying yourselves and the kids.
As for H and his stuff about S6...first, nothing is unforgiveable. Second, this sounds like H being H. If this kind of thing spins you up then you're going to be spun up much of the time.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Hey Burgbud, my sister's visit went well, we had a lot of fun.
You're right. If this kind of thing gets me spun up then I will be spun up much of the time. I know it's supposed to be better than this, or at least I sure hope so.
I know that every M has it's share of ups and downs and that nothing is ever perfect and often, things don't happen like you think they should. But my M just doesn't have enough of the good stuff to keep us going through the bad. Over the years, there have been enough incidents for me to realize that M doesn't have to be this way. I wish things were different, but it seems that we'll never get out of the power struggles. I believe this is the end of the road for us. I've told H if we can agree on custody, I'll give him exclusive use of the house and I will try to be out by the first of the year. I hope to be able to sit down with him tonight and draft our separation agreement, which will likely be sparse. I mostly want to get the joint custody agreed to....the material items can be worked out anytime.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I'm sorry to hear about this, but I'm a firm believer that things do work out the way they are supposed to. So having said that I believe there are brighter things for you on the horizon.
)despite how it may sound in writing.