Afterall...This IS my Life

[heatherg]

Last night, I asked H why the change in temperature with affections and he said he could have asked me the same thing. I know this is a deflection and I pointed out a couple of times I was affectionate and he did not respond at all. His excuse was 'You caught me off guard'. WTF? I also pointed out that he started being nice to me before we ever even left for Annapolis and I told him that I was suspicious of his intentions and he told me that it's mostly being back and our power struggles over things like S6's bedtime. He said it puts a 'rift' in things.

Last night after I was already asleep on the couch, he came over and tousled my hair and said 'good night'. Then this morning he put the kids in the car and went back in the house without saying goodbye to me.

[heatherg]

As I read back through my last couple posts, I see that in my mind it feels like I haven't brought up any R talks, but just in reading my posts, it is obvious that I have. I haven't discussed our 'future' I guess is what I'm trying to say and I've tried not to push anything. Any discussions I've initiated have been very much about the present.
I haven't been posting much, I've been doing ok just coasting along. But I see that during conflict with H, my feelings are still all over the place. Just a few comments from H "you only see what you want to see" "you can't compromise, you don't know how"....I'm right back to feeling like I don't know myself at all. How can I be so different on the outside vs what I think I'm conveying? When I start feeling this way, the few MC sessions that H and I had sort of help me get through because she did not think I was crazy and she seemed to think that I communicated with H just fine, but it was he that would not particpate. That validates my perception and while I'm not all about validating my perceptions, it does help me to not feel so crazy, as H insists that things are not the way I see them.
Anyone have any thoughts to give?

[Cobra]

Heather,

Just a few comments from H "you only see what you want to see" "you can't compromise, you don't know how"....I'm right back to feeling like I don't know myself at all. How can I be so different on the outside vs what I think I'm conveying? When I start feeling this way, the few MC sessions that H and I had sort of help me get through because she did not think I was crazy and she seemed to think that I communicated with H just fine, but it was he that would not particpate. That validates my perception and while I'm not all about validating my perceptions, it does help me to not feel so crazy, as H insists that things are not the way I see them.

I finished reading my book on adult attachment and some of the reactions they describe sound like what you are saying here, that your feel your H is seeing you as crazy. The book says this is a common reaction to the anxiety you are feeling and flipping between emotions is part of the blame/defend cycle, trying to find where you can get a reaction in your H to reconnect. Sort of like running up and down a long hallway of doors, knocking on each one to see which will open. Yeah, it can drive you crazy.

What I have been focusing on lately is what I see you needing to do also, become aware of the fears and anxieties each of you have, discuss and acknowledge those needs in each other, then agree to do what you can to sooth them. Your task in “holding on to yourself” is to not interpret his cool façade as implying you are crazy. His coolness in front of the counselor is to protect himself from inspection. That does not have to mean anything about you.

I see your H being a little more open to working with you recently. Perhaps the time you two have not been intimate is affecting him, making him be nice to you just for sex. But what is wrong with taking advantage of that opening? Does his wanting sex from you turns you off because you want him to need you, or at least first show that he is vulnerable to you, thus sparing you the need to be vulnerable to him? Just because your anxieties are not the same as his does not mean you should shut down his way of approaching you. When you turn down his approach, he reads it as your insensitivity to him, which confirms to him what he has been complaining about. This just keeps you two in a “you vs. him” mentality instead of the two of you united against the dragon of vulnerability which is sabotaging your marriage. SWIM?

[heatherg]

Cobra, here are a few things I can identify that make me feel crazy:

H's refusal to accept responsibility for any of our R problems in any meaningful way

H's namecalling and apparent state of surprise at my ridiculousness when I try to say something

H's refusal to validate any of the problems I have in our M

It's this stuff.....stuff that seems so universally accepted and reasonable to me....don't call names, devote some time to your M, a 9:30 bedtime for a toddler. I guess I just can't understand his arguments, but he is so sure of himself and his refusal to validate my side always bring me back to me, it must be me. It blows my mind that he says I can't compromise because I've been forced to compromise on absolutely everything during our entire R. I can't even buy new dishes because everything I pick out he says he doesn't like and when I've said out of frustration that I'm just going to buy some, he says he will not eat off of them. Our ice maker just broke in our 13 year old refridgerator and I want to buy a used one that we can leave with the house if/when we sell. H isn't 'ready'. He says it's a waste of money. The guy who can't stop buying toys and Heroscape pieces....our dining room is stacked with games that he's bought, we hve toys in the attic. A waste of money? WTH? I make good money and there is no reason I cannot buy a new fridge if I want one. The handles were looking yucky on the old one (handles were $175 to replace...might as well buy the used fridge), the meat drawer is broke and doesn't shut well, etc. It's due if you ask me. The weird thing is, is that he has b!tched about the fridge drawer himself saying that we need a new one. But yet I can't do anything about it, because he disagrees and doesn't recall saying anything about needing a new one.
My kids are where I draw a line in the sand. Bedtime affects their well being and it affects mine and so I refuse to give. And now it is being used as a punishment, another dangling carrot, another reason that our R cannot move forward.

This rings true to me, this sounds like me.

trying to find where you can get a reaction in your H to reconnect. Sort of like running up and down a long hallway of doors, knocking on each one to see which will open.

I do, desperately, want our M to work. I want our kids to grow up in an in tact family with that sense of security. I feel like I have let this eat me up for so long....don't my intentions ever count for anything? Can't he see how badly I want this to work? It seems he can't. All he can see is that I have to have everything my way. ??

What I have been focusing on lately is what I see you needing to do also, become aware of the fears and anxieties each of you have, discuss and acknowledge those needs in each other, then agree to do what you can to sooth them.

The thing is Cobra, my H won't agree to anything. Still, he says he's taking it one day at a time. But I can start with me, I can start with my fears, as long as I don't expect him to do anything about it. Because he won't. Pornography is a prime example. Forget it.

His coolness in front of the counselor is to protect himself from inspection. That does not have to mean anything about you.

You're right. It's just the stuff he hangs out there always leads back to me, I drive myself crazy feeling like I should be able to fix this because H keeps telling me I have the pieces.

But what is wrong with taking advantage of that opening? Does his wanting sex from you turns you off because you want him to need you, or at least first show that he is vulnerable to you, thus sparing you the need to be vulnerable to him?

No. It's because he slowly pulls back on affection and goes back to being cold after he gets it. I find it very manipulative and demeaning.

When you turn down his approach, he reads it as your insensitivity to him, which confirms to him what he has been complaining about.

I haven't turned him down. Yet. It's just that he knows how I feel about it, so sex isn't really on the table for the most part unless he treats me very kindly, doing or saying something to soothe my concerns about not sleeping in the same bed, etc.

[Cobra]

Heather,

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to defend him, just trying to understand him.

The first 3 things you list are things he does to push your buttons, and you respond on cue. Let go of the need for him to do as you want.

It's this stuff.....stuff that seems so universally accepted and reasonable to me....don't call names, devote some time to your M, a 9:30 bedtime for a toddler.

If he doesn’t call you names, what do you give back in return? Name calling can be a way of getting you to react and engage. If you engage, then he won’t have to call you names. Now I know everyone here will say this is not a point of negotiation. IMO, if you don’t want to negotiate and make this a matter principle on which you will not budge until he accepts your rules of civility, then go back to being stuck. You are both hurt and trying to protect yourself. Neither of you can or will do that the healthy way. So work within that constraint.

I guess I just can't understand his arguments, but he is so sure of himself and his refusal to validate my side always bring me back to me, it must be me. It blows my mind that he says I can't compromise because I've been forced to compromise on absolutely everything during our entire R.

What is the point in you getting him to validate you? Is it to create a closer bond or is it to get the “one-up” position? To bond, you need to offer him something in return. What exactly does he want? Do you really know? If you’ve compromised on “everything” and it hasn’t done any good, then maybe those things aren’t what he wants.

All your talk about dishes, refrigerators and toys don’t sound to me like the heart of your problems. IMO, he feels abandoned (and maybe has no idea what real connection is, but that is for a therapist to help him understand), and wants to feel that you need him, will serve his grand ego, and give him control over you. All those “needs” are just excuses to protect himself from his fears. You know this but he does not.

You will not likely get him to see the truth since he has absolutely nothing to gain by learning the truth. From a narcissistic POV, to admit to his problems, give you compassion, admit to his shortcomings, would all be giving up power, and that is scary. I doubt he will do this before reconnecting with you. Only after some time together might he take a look at these issues and maybe address them, and only if he is confident you will not abandon him. This is why I have come to realize some of the approaches discussed here have shortcomings. Sometimes for the more seriously dysfunctional relationships, like yours and mine, another approach is needed.

The weird thing is, is that he has b!tched about the fridge drawer himself saying that we need a new one. But yet I can't do anything about it, because he disagrees and doesn't recall saying anything about needing a new one.

I don’t understand this. Just go buy the fridge.

I do, desperately, want our M to work. I want our kids to grow up in an in tact family with that sense of security. I feel like I have let this eat me up for so long....don't my intentions ever count for anything? Can't he see how badly I want this to work? It seems he can't. All he can see is that I have to have everything my way. ??

What you say about your H sounds like he wants the M to be better too. In his mindset, I would say that no, your intentions do not count, at least for now because you do not give credence to his intentions. Have you told him in a very open-hearted, vulnerable manner that you understand HIS pain and wants for a complete family. Telling him what you want does not seem to have gone anywhere, even when baring your soul. He seems to see it as more of focusing on your needs, not his. Talking about his needs is soothing to him. After some time, that will HOPEFULLY soften him up to the point that he will return the soothing to you.

But I can start with me, I can start with my fears, as long as I don't expect him to do anything about it. Because he won't.

I know this is necessary, but I am thinking that if you also work on soothing him, he might respond. Try it. You’ve tried everything else.

You're right. It's just the stuff he hangs out there always leads back to me, I drive myself crazy feeling like I should be able to fix this because H keeps telling me I have the pieces.

I may be wrong, but I think this is confirming what I am saying. He knows you have it in you to sooth him, just as you did when you two first met. I know that is not healthy, but that seems to be the only language he hears, unless I’ve completely missed something.

Going back into that old mode is not healthy for you. Staying stuck is not healthy either. He will not open up to learn otherwise. So what are you to do? He’s got every single door locked down except for one – for you to reach out to him in the way he wants you to. That path will cause you to surrender your sense of self, but maybe you can do it long enough, without letting him undermine your self confidence, until you can get him into therapy.

I really think you need to touch his heart again so he can feel enough to return the compassion.

No. It's because he slowly pulls back on affection and goes back to being cold after he gets it. I find it very manipulative and demeaning.

So you protect yourself and tell him the only door not locked down is for him to reach out to you in the way you want. Which one of you is aware and confident enough to make the first move? The both of you holding onto yourselves does not seem to be working. It is good for stopping the fights, which is a required first step. Now its time to take the second step.

[heatherg]

The first 3 things you list are things he does to push your buttons, and you respond on cue. Let go of the need for him to do as you want.

I think this helps to an extent. I try not to let his button pushing escalate into a fight, often I try to keep my reactions as hidden as possible so that he doesn't know he's getting to me. But inside, it tears me up and of course, long term it's not very appealing to me to live this way. It's exhausting and all my feelings get misdirected.

If he doesn’t call you names, what do you give back in return?

I don't call him names either. It's about setting that minimum level of civility that Lil has talked about. I hate to think that all of our interactions would be reduced to 'what do I get out of it', but if that's the case, then he gets a minimum level of civility in return.

Name calling can be a way of getting you to react and engage. If you engage, then he won’t have to call you names. Now I know everyone here will say this is not a point of negotiation.

I know people have gotten on your case about name-calling, including me, and I think you're projecting here. I'm the pursuer in my R remember? He's not trying to get me to engage, I already engage, in fact 99.9% of the time (no exaggerations there), I am the one who has started the conversation. He's trying to get me to leave him alone and he's trying to end it on a note where he has all the power. That not only reinforces his position but makes me think twice about approaching him again. Win win for an avoider.

What is the point in you getting him to validate you?

I honestly believe that our problems will never be worked out unless we can get to a point where we can let our defenses down and look at the other person with soft eyes and say 'yeah, I see what you're saying'. I believe we need to come to a place where we both concede that neither of us is right or wrong, we are just different and because we love one another we need to figure out how to accomodate those differences in such a way that we can still have a warm, loving R. If he constantly says 'you don't know what you're talking about' 'you only see what you want to see' 'you're an idiot'......well I know those things aren't true. It makes me lose trust in him because I don't know what his motives are in saying such things. Those kinds of statements break the bridge for communication even if I don't react. I don't have to make a fight of it, but he certainly isn't scoring any points with me either.

I don’t understand this. Just go buy the fridge.

I will. But you see, when he gives me his opinion, I am expected to honor it. Otherwise, I'll be accused of just 'going off and doing whatever I want'. But that's fine, he can accuse me of that if he wants. I'm getting the fridge.

Telling him what you want does not seem to have gone anywhere, even when baring your soul. He seems to see it as more of focusing on your needs, not his. Talking about his needs is soothing to him.

This is really difficult because even things like the fridge will set me back. It is even possible to focus on someone else's needs to that extent but yet remain detached enough to endure the rest of the marital BS?

I was thinking about how well we got along when we were in Annapolis and it seems pretty clear to me that H uses the kids as a distraction, an excuse and a replacement for/from our crappy M. I've actually wondered if things will get better between H and I as the kids get older and more independent and, this may seem irrational, but I've actually already started fearing grandkids because I feel like the whole situation may replay itself. Here's something that H said to me that scared the daylights out of me: "It wouldn't be the end of the world if D3 got pregnant in her teens, ya know?" The context of the comment was that we would take care of the baby. I tried to keep my reaction hidden, but on the inside I was freaking out. What kind of father says this?!

[Cobra]

Heather,

Why do I get the feeling that when I start posting my thoughts, the activity on this board dries up?

I don't call him names either. It's about setting that minimum level of civility that Lil has talked about. I hate to think that all of our interactions would be reduced to 'what do I get out of it', but if that's the case, then he gets a minimum level of civility in return.

I know people have gotten on your case about name-calling, including me, and I think you're projecting here. I'm the pursuer in my R remember? He's not trying to get me to engage, I already engage, in fact 99.9% of the time (no exaggerations there), I am the one who has started the conversation. He's trying to get me to leave him alone and he's trying to end it on a note where he has all the power. That not only reinforces his position but makes me think twice about approaching him again. Win win for an avoider.

I think not calling names is admirable, and it is more than I can do at times. But a minimum level of civility may not mean emotional closeness for him. I am not convinced he is an avoider. He does act that way, but he is also very passive aggressive, so anything he does might seem like avoidance. OTOH, name calling may be him venting his frustration that you will not return to the “good ol’ days” when you were more subservient to him.

If we assume he has a lot of narcissism in him, based on his past actions to control you, then he may not be the avoider, but instead be a very sly pursuer. I know you are pursuing right now, trying to get the marriage back together. But you have a big problem in facing intimacy and vulnerability. In this way I still think you avoid deep emotions, but you are fighting with your H to get the validation you want without having to become vulnerable. Its like on one hand you pursue, but then on the other you avoid.

I think he has to know this about you and he is holding back until you come crawling back. Once he knows he has broken you (sort of like what GEL was try to say I was doing) then he can take the pursuit role over and go back to controlling your life. I think he knows that he cannot do this until you let him. So he is waiting for you to let him, which of course you won’t. Another reason why you are stuck.

I honestly believe that our problems will never be worked out unless we can get to a point where we can let our defenses down and look at the other person with soft eyes and say 'yeah, I see what you're saying'.

Agreed, but how do you do that. You are not willing to open yourself and neither is he. Each of you focus on how little the other gives you. You seem to have a better handle on yourself now than several months ago. I think you are in better position to take the lead on this matter than him.

I believe we need to come to a place where we both concede that neither of us is right or wrong, we are just different and because we love one another we need to figure out how to accomodate those differences in such a way that we can still have a warm, loving R.
I don’t know that accommodation is the issue. You say you want him to accommodate your needs and vice versa. What does this really mean? I think you want him to give you the love and comfort you want. He knows the differences you have from him, that is part of the attraction, as Dieda says. What he wants is for you to sooth him and you want him to sooth you. That soothing will let you feel like he is on your team. Once you feel connected in this way, does it matter that there are differences between you two?

I don’t think so because there will always be. The thing is that the bonding will allow each of you to move toward a more accommodating position and learn to tolerate the differences more because those differences are no longer threatening. They will still be there, but not as a potential wedge.

If he constantly says 'you don't know what you're talking about' 'you only see what you want to see' 'you're an idiot'......well I know those things aren't true. It makes me lose trust in him because I don't know what his motives are in saying such things.

He probably doesn’t know what his motives are either. Do you REALLY know what it is that triggers you to say the mean things you say? Your excuse is probably that he did X so you need to do Y, or that he is inconsiderate of your needs, or not accommodating your needs, or trying to pull a power play. But is that REALLY why you say what you do?

Don’t you react because you feel fear and anxiety, fear that he will leave you, that you will lose your family and all your dreams? If you know those things are cemented in the ground and there is absolutely now way he will ever leave you, you might not react the same way. Isn’t it possible that he is feeling the same thing and reacting for the same reason?

You won’t ever really know why he reacts and it doesn’t matter. All you need to know is that he is hurt and scared and therefore reacting. When your kids react this way, can you ever know exactly what panicked them? Does it matter? You just give them loads of comfort and security and they get better. It works every time right?

I will. But you see, when he gives me his opinion, I am expected to honor it. Otherwise, I'll be accused of just 'going off and doing whatever I want'. But that's fine, he can accuse me of that if he wants. I'm getting the fridge.

Again, when he says this, can you see that it means he thinks you are excluding him and he is reacting to this feeling of abandonment? So he gets angry yells at you, then goes and sulks. His not validating your perfectly sensible rationale does the same to you, so you get angry, yell, and go do what you want to defy him. It is your passive aggressive way to get back at him. Can you see this?

The very fact that you both do the same dance says something. To me it says you each want validation, comfort, security from the other. If you can both get radically honest with each other, to the point that you can both see that this is what you want, then I think you can start to give to one another and turn this power struggle around. That is why I think that your soothing him can help. It might take him some time to understand this, but maybe not. It seemed to have worked pretty quickly on you, didn’t it? He was nice to you for only one weekend and you started to soften up.

This is really difficult because even things like the fridge will set me back. It is even possible to focus on someone else's needs to that extent but yet remain detached enough to endure the rest of the marital BS?

Try to listen through the BS. For the both of you to be as you are, just as my W and I are, you had to have suffered some sort of trauma or lived in a narcissistic setting at a young age. Whenever that occurred, your emotional growth was frozen. If that happened why your H was 8, then expect him to emotionally react like an 8 year old, which is what he seems to be doing. Then listen to him as you would a child and try to hear the pain and hurt he is saying. Address this with him (as you see fit, since this might be touchy) and comfort him on the level he needs. Again, what have you got to loose by trying? It will be really interesting he you get a different reaction.

The thing I saw in that weekend you had is that you kept your unhappiness in your thoughts, wondering when things could get better so you would be happy. He sensed this. Imagine a hurt kid with a dysfunctional mother. They spend a fun weekend at the amusement park, but instead of the mother being happy for her son and trying to block out the troubles of the world to keep him in his happy fantasy world, she instead keeps pulling him back to reality, wondering when she will be happy. The whole weekend becomes hollow because the son knows that his mother is not focused or concerned about him but about her.

If the mother could have focused only on the son, and mad herself happy for his sake, the boy would have received a totally different message. This is true even if the boy knows his mother was putting up a façade. In fact he could feel even more loved if he knew his mother was making this much effort only FOR HIS SAKE. Isn’t this what you want from your H? Is this what he wants from you?

"It wouldn't be the end of the world if D3 got pregnant in her teens, ya know?" The context of the comment was that we would take care of the baby.

You have much bigger problems right now than to focus on this hypothetical problem. Sure, something sounds wrong, but it could be just his way of setting up another wall to keep you back and hurt you. Like so much of what he says, it is contradictory. He wants to focus his emotional bonding on this future grandchild, to exclude and hurt you, but he still plans to be married to you that far into the future so he can execute this plan? This sounds like a bunch of BS to me, just meant to set you off. Ignore it.

[blackfoot]

I don’t understand this. Just go buy the fridge.

I will. But you see, when he gives me his opinion, I am expected to honor it. Otherwise, I'll be accused of just 'going off and doing whatever I want'. But that's fine, he can accuse me of that if he wants. I'm getting the fridge.

Im shocked that you would tell someone to disrespect their H's wishes Cobra. I cant imagine you would appreciate that.

Heather you made me laugh again.
In essence you said, I know what pisses my H off and by God Im going to do it.

LOL.

There is an alternative.

[Cobra]

Blackfoot,

I agree, so let me restate…


Heather,

I do not think the fridge is the issue. It is just another thing over which to fight for control. Maybe he thinks the fridge could last a little longer, or wants to save the money (though your arguments about finances make sense). What I had in mind with my comments is that you need to give him the message that while you love him, you don’t like his behavior. His resistance to the fridge, keeping you distant, trying to re-exert control over you, are all examples of his behavior, but in spite of all this you still love him. He needs to hear this and really feel it, IMO.

So the fridge is just a side issue. Get the fridge, but address his insecurities, let him know why you need the fridge, not to counter his spending on video games, but to make his life better, and make it easier for you to make his life better. Try to appeal to his sense of empathy. Don't let it become a wedge, but the two of you do need to establish better boundaries.

One other thought. After I posted my comments to you yesterday, it occurred to me that maybe he was being nice to you that weekend in order to pull you closer, so he could then push you away. I recall you said something long ago that one of his objectives was to make you pay for you’re a. He cannot extract much vengeance on you if you don’t make yourself vulnerable. So if he can get you to warm up, open up a little, become vulnerable, then he can put on a little more hurt. This is a very cynical view, I know, but if he is a narcissist, or at least has some strong tendencies, this will not be beyond him.

Just beware of it. In the end I do not think it matters since he is still crying out for caring, he is just a little more vindictive about it. To me that only speaks of how much you hurt him (even though he had little ability to endure any pain at all) and how much he has had to build his defenses. Addressing this core hurt and showing him the compassion you would a kid is still your best course, IMO.

That said, if it turns out that you do all this, make yourself available, commit yourself to him, become honest and expose your vulnerabilities, and he still will not break down his barriers, then you have a different problem on your hands. But you do not know if this is so just yet.

[heatherg]

I think not calling names is admirable, and it is more than I can do at times.

I was going to say baloney but then I changed my mind. Oops, did I just say baloney? What I meant to say was that I have faith in you Cobra. You can do it.

I am not convinced he is an avoider.

I'd like to think he's not because somehow a pursuer seems to care more about the R. But I do believe all the facts point to avoidance. He's an alcoholic, he detests favors and responsibility to others including the basic responsibilities of friendship, his commonplace answer to most questions is 'I don't know', he is a huge fan of movies, fantasy books, games, toys, etc which he loses himself in every single day in one form or another. These are just some of the most obvious things about him.

he is also very passive aggressive, so anything he does might seem like avoidance.

I can see this too, but I still say that even his passive agressiveness is just the easiest way for him to get his way without having to engage.

But you have a big problem in facing intimacy and vulnerability. In this way I still think you avoid deep emotions, but you are fighting with your H to get the validation you want without having to become vulnerable. Its like on one hand you pursue, but then on the other you avoid.

This is somewhat true. I'm not good at being emotionally intimate....this is not to say that I avoid though, simply because my H is not good at it either so it's not like he pursues me with deep conversations that I lamely bow out of. I'm not real good at letting my vulnerabilities show, you are 100% correct about that. And you're also correct that I still want the intimacy. Not really fair is it?

You seem to have a better handle on yourself now than several months ago.

I agree. I can more easily see the bigger picture now that I've detached more....I don't take the things H says as personally as I used to and I feel more sure of myself. Lately, H has tried to tell me that I am mean to S6, which is just a bunch of crap. Honestly, I've listened to it just long enough to ask myself 'is it true?' With my answer being 'no, it isn't' I've just let it go. Who cares what he thinks? I'm a good mother and my son loves me, much to H's chagrin I sometimes think.

You say you want him to accommodate your needs and vice versa. What does this really mean?

It means looking at our differences and figuring out the best way to make our lives work given those differences. For instance, H is a night owl. If he would adopt a few different habits, I'd be more willing to accept that. If he'd make a real effort to be quiet and keep lights out in rooms he's not occupying I think I could be more accepting. But it's like we can't have those kinds of conversations because he treats me like an annoying mosquito that's buzzing in his ear. It's exactly that feeling that contributed to me having an A in the first place.

Once you feel connected in this way, does it matter that there are differences between you two?


Yes, it will always matter because the differences affect the quality of each of our lives. We have to figure out resolutions, there's no way to say "I hear you that the lights keep you awake at night....awwe, I'm really sorry about that" <insert puppy dog eyes> but then keep doing it anyway reasoning that he has soothed me and therefore the difference shouldn't matter anymore. It still matters. Resolution is the only way. Compromise. Talking it out. Respecting each other's feelings to the extent that the resolution appears very necessary so that the rift can be repaired and the M can be as loving as possible.

Do you REALLY know what it is that triggers you to say the mean things you say?

Yes. His avoidance and nonchalant attitude about what I'm saying as though I'm that mosquito in his ear. It used to escalate the situation into me becoming a screaming maniac. Of course, I don't do that anymore. But I still gnash my teeth at night

Don’t you react because you feel fear and anxiety, fear that he will leave you, that you will lose your family and all your dreams?

Honestly no. I react that way because it infuriates me that he treats me the way he does and there is seemingly nothing I can do about it except try to give him a wake up call (tried that, didn't work) or leave. Of course, being here on the boards I have learned that there may be other ways. But to answer your quetion, no, my fears per se are not what drive my reactions. It's anger through and through.

so you get angry, yell, and go do what you want to defy him. It is your passive aggressive way to get back at him. Can you see this?

No, not really because it's not really what I do at least not anymore. I got pissy when he said he didn't want to get the fridge right now, but I didn't get angry really or yell. Nor does my intention to get the fridge have anything to do whatsoever with defying him. It simply has to do with the fact that our 13 yr old fridge is a piece and I make good enough money to buy a new one. That's all. Really.

When your kids react this way, can you ever know exactly what panicked them? Does it matter? You just give them loads of comfort and security and they get better. It works every time right?

I can see this Cobra. If I can get it past my gag reflex, I might be able to try it. That was only half joking. I do see your point.

The thing I saw in that weekend you had is that you kept your unhappiness in your thoughts,

What made you think this?

Blackfoot: Heather you made me laugh again.
In essence you said, I know what pisses my H off and by God Im going to do it.

Good to see ya BF. I really don't see that. Like I said above, the fridge has nothing to do with pissing off my H. In fact, I was shocked he didn't agree with me when I said I'd buy a used one. Hell, that seems like a pretty good compromise to me. He can deny all he wants, but I'm here to tell ya, he's said himself we need a new one and that was *before* the ice maker broke. Ok, so here's the deal. I'm getting the used fridge. BUT, my initial suggestion was that we use the tax return money to do it. Now, I'll give him his half in cash and use my money to get the fridge. Don't get too tangled in the my money-his money thing. It's just the way we do things. And I'm arranging for whoever I buy it from to deliver it. All we'll have to do is swap the old one to the curb and put the new one in.

There is an alternative.

Don't go cryptic on me, what do you suggest?

I do not think the fridge is the issue. It is just another thing over which to fight for control.

I totally agree and it's ridiculous. I'm not fighting for control. Something breaks, you either fix it or buy a new one. Oh yeah by the way, if he could fix it, I would be totally open to keeping it. I didn't just decide we needed a new fridge, it broke. I didn't have any control over that but I can certainly control whether or not I have ice tomorrow, kwim? If H doesn't want ice tomorrow, he doesn't have to use it

address his insecurities, let him know why you need the fridge,

Again, gag, but ok. Whatever works. Maybe someday he'll grow up.

After I posted my comments to you yesterday, it occurred to me that maybe he was being nice to you that weekend in order to pull you closer, so he could then push you away. I recall you said something long ago that one of his objectives was to make you pay for you’re a. He cannot extract much vengeance on you if you don’t make yourself vulnerable. So if he can get you to warm up, open up a little, become vulnerable, then he can put on a little more hurt. This is a very cynical view, I know, but if he is a narcissist, or at least has some strong tendencies, this will not be beyond him.

With thoughts like this, do you see why I gag at the thought of soothing him?! It's like I'm a little puppet on a string for him to manipulate and it works because he knows I care. Now *that* would be sick.